Class design

[Scurvy Cur]

Going back to the OP's post, since we derailed a bit:

I think there's a lot of reason to be a little disappointed that so many of the new classes feel packaged as "pure or go home" or "26-27+ tumble dip or go home". To me, it's taken a lot of the joy out of building for Arelith. It's been a while since a new mechanical concept really interested me, and I will probably never play some of the new classes for that reason.

I also think it's fair to point out that introducing a bunch of classes with formulae tucked into spreadsheets on them is off-putting. I will probably never offer feedback on Invoker, for example, because offering a meaningful response to the class requires digging through a tl;dr mechanical summary. And this isn't math aversion on my part. My first degree was in engineering; I mathed professionally for most of a decade, and I still look at Invoker and go "Boy, I hope this class is weak enough that I'll never have to crack it open and learn what it does".

I also think it's disingenuous to deflect by telling the OP that they can still play the same (atrociously power crept) mix and match builds that they always could. While this is true, it would also leave the OP (or anyone else doing it) playing a build that is drastically outperformed by its counterparts, and largely unsuited even for completing any of the dungeons recently released.

As an aside: For those who think that comparative strength to "the meta" is just a concern for PvPers, it's not. Suppose your roleplay notion for a character is that you're a tough, capable swordsman, the gruff and grizzled veteran, a liability at a wedding reception, but a deadly asset in a life or death fight. You've automatically dictated a couple of things for your character. One of them is that you actually be good in a fight. Even if all you do is run dungeons with your friends, this character doesn't feel like it faithfully executes on the concept if it's not at least "meta adjacent". This is because Arelith, god bless its crusty soul, still upholds the idea that everything, and I mean every little scrap of RP you do from dungeon grind to the political scheme session you have behind locked doors, is IC. So if you roll up the grizzled swordmaster who does no damage, or the ultrabadass assassin who needs to be raised several times per dungeon run, or the dedicated holy warrior that loses every single fight against evil because his build is flimsy, your interactions with the world are going to portray a character who is much weaker than the one you thought you were writing.

For a lot of people, this may be fine. But for others, they've got an idea of what they want to portray, and this necessarily limits their choices to something with certain abilities. This is why any time someone asks me for a character build, and they don't know what they'd like to play, my first question is always "what do you want the character to do?". It's important (or at least I think it is) that a build should be able to "deliver the goods" as it were on any writing that the player wants to put forth for it.

At the same time, I can sympathize with the decision to put major abilities at 26 or 28 in a class progression, and to make these abilities so strong that, as Oaks said, you shoot yourself in the foot for not taking them. Part of this is that there are dips (one at 3 levels, one at 5) which need to be taken into account for every class. I won't get into more details here, but this tends to constrain the ability to just let a class be like ranger or barbarian, neither of which worry about a "capstone" feat, and instead offer a solid range of options at basically any concentration between 21 and 30. It's always easier to design a class that can't be multiclassed, because you don't need to worry about these complications. Our releases that have been multiclassable, like invisible blade, cavalier, and loremaster have needed 2, 3, and 2 major overhauls respectively before they started looking reasonable.


Also Bards.

And if you need further explanation for why bard is a problem, you clearly haven't been paying very much attention.

[Shadowy Reality]

Also Bards.

And if you need further explanation for why bard is a problem, you clearly haven't been paying very much attention.

I am a bit confused with this part. You make it seem like Bards recently became a problem. Bards were always a problem, it's just they were never the cool new thing and so a lot less people played them, also no writ system made it annoying to level one. But you could always build a EDR Bard 30 build designed to cast bard song, curse song, hastes and then run around in circles doing little else but support your party with consumables.

This is pretty much what the new bards do too, except their bard/curse song is mechanically worse, they need to be in range and on the higher end, the AC bonus and penalty would reach 7 at bard 30 and 100 perform, which it does not now.

If anything, Bards right now are a tuned down version of what they were, with a lot more versatility and QoL with all the new songs and new song mechanics. All this asides, they are indeed still incredibly strong supporters.

Part of this is that there are dips (one at 3 levels, one at 5) which need to be taken into account for every class.

And perhaps it should be these that should be looked at, instead of limiting all new classes due to their existence, no?

[-XXX-]

IMO we might've reached a bit of new class fatigue at this point. Especially since most of these don't really add that much to existing classes or builds, but rather tend to be standalone concepts that heavily incentivize going pure 30 lvls in one of 2-3 prescribed, prebaked packages to reach their max potential.

Secondly, power creep seems to have become a balancing tool. For example, while I understand that overhauling all the individual spells might've been a ton of work that'd probobably be too much to ask from volunteer staff, but out-powercreeping caster classes into obscurity with new, caster-lite flavor variant classes that have curated spell lists and one gimmick that's much more powerful than anything that the core class can do is a poor solution IMO.

[Scurvy Cur]

I am a bit confused with this part. You make it seem like Bards recently became a problem. Bards were always a problem, it's just they were never the cool new thing and so a lot less people played them, also no writ system made it annoying to level one. But you could always build a EDR Bard 30 build designed to cast bard song, curse song, hastes and then run around in circles doing little else but support your party with consumables.

I'm actually glad you posted this. It illustrates my point. You're confused, and it's probably because you haven't been paying attention.

You could always do this.

It didn't always give +6 AB to the entire party (4 from base song, 1 from 60 minute long aid casts, and 1 from leadership). A year and a half ago, it gave 2.

Until earlier this year, it would provide ~4-5 casts of 3 minute long mass hastes. It now provides 5 casts of extended mass haste.

A year and a half ago, you wouldn't wear armor, and if you wanted a shield, you were limited to greensteel small. Since you hadn't put much into dexterity (and didn't have uncannny dodge even if you did) your AC came out to the low to mid 40s, and expertise would bring it to the mid 50s. Now you wear chainmail which gives you 4-5 more AC than you had previously (depending on how much you could previously gear dexterity), you use a large shield which gives you 3 more AC than the greensteel small you used to use. You sit in expertise at ~64 AC. That didn't used to happen.

Part of this is that there are dips (one at 3 levels, one at 5) which need to be taken into account for every class.

And perhaps it should be these that should be looked at, instead of limiting all new classes due to their existence, no?

That is indeed the implication I was getting at.

[Shadowy Reality]

It's a bit unfair to compare today's bard song + leadership + aid vs old bard song.

The difference between old bard song and new bard song is 2 in terms of AB, not 4. Neither Leadership not Aid are exclusive to bards. You can argue that you don't have to invest a lot to get them in a Bard, but it's still an unfair comparison.

They are still 1 AC behind what they were before. Old song gave 7, now it gives 6 max and having to be close to the Bard is a pretty big change.

As for armour changes, I could be misremembering but I think old greensteel stuff gave total -ASF% reduction didn't it? Fairly sure I recall seeing a couple of bards with both shield and greensteel chain. Today's bards get 2 more AC due to Elven chain armor existing and being useable and the Enchanted Medium shield have one more AC than greensteel, effectively only 1 more because song gives 1 less AC.

[Ork]

my brother in christ, you made the comparison first.

[Shadowy Reality]

my brother in christ, you made the comparison first.

Yes, I did. I compared old bards to today's bards bonus. Why are we adding Aid for today's bards but not old ones, everyone could always get Aid bonus, through some mean or another, it's not bard specific.

And neither is Leadership, fairly sure the Leadership update came in between old bards and new bards, so if you really want to get technical, old bards also had access to this.

I am arguing for making the right comparisons, not adding things to one side and not the other to try prove a point.

[Drowboy]

If you are comparing the kit of a current class to the classes old kit you would logically compare the entire kit, no?

[garrbear758]

My main character for the longest time was a Favored Soul, it is a decent class but there is no denying that when compared to many of the other classes available, it is incredibly bland. You get some damage resistance and spontaneous casting, that's it, maybe it's seen as super useful mechanically, and it does come in handy, but it is so very boring. You don't get even a single domain, you can't even consecrate altars without spending a Gift on it. Unless you specifically wanted to play a character with that particular RP background, you're much better off going Cleric. To me, it is still an incomplete class and the best example of a class that was left alone after introduction to move on to more and more classes. Invisible Blades, Invokers, Sailboats even, when is some attention going to be given back to the mundane classes? Where's the love for Rogue and Fighters? Are they just obsolete classes now?

I strongly disagree. I think favored soul is the most interesting class on the server due to the unique rp niche. If you don't like it no one is forcing you to play it. If you want domains and consecration, play a cleric.

[Scurvy Cur]

my brother in christ, you made the comparison first.

Yes, I did. I compared old bards to today's bards bonus. Why are we adding Aid for today's bards but not old ones, everyone could always get Aid bonus, through some mean or another, it's not bard specific.

And neither is Leadership, fairly sure the Leadership update came in between old bards and new bards, so if you really want to get technical, old bards also had access to this.

I am arguing for making the right comparisons, not adding things to one side and not the other to try prove a point.

Ok, I'll bite.

Aid is included because it is a recent addition to the bard spell list. Previously, adding 60 minutes of aid (which makes it functionally a permanent buff) required also having a cleric or favored soul.

If you mean to insist that a 60 minute cast of aid and a 3 minute potion of aid are equivalent, please say so explicitly, because I could use the entertainment.

Leadership is included because, a year and a half ago (maybe more like 2, I suppose), leadership was changed to include an AB bonus. What this has to do with bard is that, for every class except bard, hitting 50 leadership requires a relatively serious skillpoint and/or gear investment. Bard, by contrast, gets 24-25 leadership from bard song and charisma score alone. If you wanted to, you could gear bard to 50 leadership without investing a single point, though that's really not optimal. You will functionally never find a bard that does not get the +1 AB, which before, bards did not provide.

I have played a lot of bards. Support bard in its current form is an entirely different beast than it was even as little as a year ago. When your entire premise is "I don't understand the problem, because bard was always strong", it is entirely reasonable to raise the specific ways in which it is stronger now than it previously was.

[stoneheart-]

I strongly disagree. I think favored soul is the most interesting class on the server due to the unique rp niche. If you don't like it no one is forcing you to play it. If you want domains and consecration, play a cleric.

I agree with you, you can also get the gift which allows consecration. The only thing I wish favored soul and paladin had were the unique Bless VFX.. actually, i wish more of the weapon VFX were available to others. Imagining an ancients paladin with the flower effect for bless, vengeance might have the sun domain bless, etc etc.. I think what people really mean when they ask for domains and stuff on Favored Soul is they want some of the little touches that make the class feel cool. I mean, we all know that FvS is cool, but the chimp brain inside us all wants a cool weapon glow, you know?

eta: I would also say that every FvS feels "samey", in that there's a very clear selection of "optimal" spells to take, with little variation (that would, in a cleric, be provided by domains) to be had to add flavor and a thematic element. For example: that an FvS of some kind of dark god to take shadow-related spells like a darkness domain cleric can. So that's probably another reason why people want domains. What they actually want is variety and flavor, to make their character seem unique from one another not just from a roleplay standpoint, but also mechanically.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I just popped in to say I find this thread fascinating, and actually have some comments on a few things.


1) The main topic, I don't think anyone is against new and exciting things. The problems set in when current builds get wiped out or get nerfed because of the new and exciting thing. It's the one thing that has made me angry at the development process, and I'm sure it's the same issue others have as well. My last post about arelith (I made a goodbye post to fallendabus but that doesn't count) I suggested that it was ok to offer a long-standing character a chance to wrap their story up in a glorious bang if they wanted to, and it was met with a "hell nah" because no one wants to be the bad guy and tell people it's time to wrap things up. But sometimes these updates are just that, only without the glorious bang to go out with on a story, just an acceptance that you have now been powercrept into irrelevance. Some will say that power level shouldn't matter, and I will touch on why that is wrong in a later point, but even if it wasn't telling folks how they "should" feel in the face of how they "do" feel never makes anyone the hero I think they think they are when they do it.

2) This post to me was a shocker-

The number one issue I currently have with class design, is that many of them get some of their most interesting and powerful abilities at level 30 (20 Blackguard as mentioned above, is one), and level 30 is essentially the 'game over' moment. Sure, you might now have the greatest tools for PVE, but outside of gearing (which you likely have already done), or trading (again, you likely have enough gold), there isn't much to do with this, aside from PvP.

It's kind of like putting a free state of the art submarine at the bottom of the Mariana Trench.

- simply because it doesn't really reflect the reality of the server. "The game starts at 30" is not just the thoughts of an outlier or two among the playerbase, it is the core philosophy of Arelith as a whole. Sure, players come in with their own ideas on how to play the game. I know this because I was one of the folks that never expected to get to level 30 on an arelith character when I started, I was just here to try and tell interesting stories and get on with rp. But it only took one incident of me trying to stir stuff up in the mid teens and getting smashed by a bunch of level 30s within the hour to realize that that playstyle doesn't work here on Arelith. There are a few reasons for the culture being this way, and I could go on for hours about them, but its off topic so I will just focus on the main one. The PvP rules, in particular the "rp before fighting", means you have to be the most powerful you possibly can be. The great equalizer in pvp is the gank, and that is removed from the equation all together. So of course everyone not only builds for max power, since max power starts with being level 30 they try to get there just as fast. On a lesser, but still relevant level, the idea that I can go in and kill johnny the drow in the middle of the underdark as a paladin of smite without requiring a dm to react with the setting adds to this philosophy as well. Johnny has to be amped and ready for me to walk up and kill him after saying hello after all no matter where he is.

I don't point this out because I think you are going to change the rules, it's clear that's not going to happen and it's your server your choice. But I felt like I should point out the effects these things have on the culture, since I get the sense that you don't see it. And it doesn't matter that these things don't happen a lot. As long as it can happen, human instinct will be to prepare for it, and that means min maxing and rushing to 30.

3) Both shadow reality and scurvey are right about bards, despite completely disagreeing. Shadow is right, bard song used to be a lot more powerful and the old bards were probably better in group pvp going strictly by numbers. It was two songs that did it all, and they did most of it better than the specific songs do now. But bard is a lot more flexible now than the old con builds were, especially when it comes to pve. In the old days if you wanted to build the optimal con bard you needed to either start with at least one other player that leveled at relatively the same pace as you to level 30 or spend hours of your in-game time trying to find folks to level with (which again is another issue that can take hours to dive deep into). Now with the combination of summons and bard song and regeneration, bard is probably the easiest class to solo level there is. They are also likely the richest, because they don't need consumables at all really and they can max out their search from the jump. My last character was a bard, and not even a good one because I made it before the changes, and I had a million in the bank and 3 mw ruins by the time I hit thirty. I never applied said ruins, I wasn't sure where I should because I felt the class was going to be changed again and again before finally settling, but I had them ready! The irony is, before the summons I was struggling at level 10.

Anyways, I hope this is taken for what it's meant to be. Just an honest perspective, with no intention to insult anyone or bum the dev team out or whatever.

[Security_Blanket]

I strongly disagree. I think favored soul is the most interesting class on the server due to the unique rp niche. If you don't like it no one is forcing you to play it. If you want domains and consecration, play a cleric.

That's what I said, if you want that sort of RP then play a Favored Soul, otherwise, play a Cleric. They have some mechanical backing to justify taking the class, but they are BORING, an incredibly BORING class that has only the RP incentive to take it. The very least you could do is let them consecrate altars but suggesting such a thing seems almost blasphemous at this point. I can already hear the odd person cry out "because they're not Clerics!" What the hell are they!? They're not Shamans, they're not Clerics, they're not Sorcerers, they are just this odd creation that was thrown into play and expected to be as attractive as Clerics, well, they're not. They're personally blessed by a God, whether by their choice or not but even with this innate connection to a God they can't consecrate an altar, even intuitively? I just don't get it.

[Exordius]

FS is not worth crap except as a battle cleric, and even then actual battle clerics are still better. Don't bother taking the class, its not worth it.

[Ebonstar]

ok an update due to just leveling up at 23 Shaman monk mix

according to the wiki i was to get a bonus feat, well it seems i did but it wasnt my choice, and while scroll through feats found another spell focus chosen that wasnt by choice either.

so given that feats are rare for the Shaman as it is, why do we not get to make choices for our bonus and free ones every other class does?

is this by design or just oversight and error during creation?

[Xerah]

None of that is true at all.

You don’t auto get assigned bonus feats. If you’re a level 23 multi classes character then you’re not a level 23 shaman. Shaman also get spell focus divination for free which is probably what you’re seeing.

Aside from all that, this should go into a big report (but there really isn’t a big here)

FS is not worth crap except as a battle cleric, and even then actual battle clerics are still better. Don't bother taking the class, its not worth it.

And that’s a real bad take on FS. Can I ask how you came to that conclusion?

[Ork]

I think this is an issue of some players seeing class features that affect roleplay as an attractive addition to a class. They like mages for the GSF, ESF goodies, they like cleric for the interesting but maybe mechanically null domains. They like shadowdancer for its shadow teleport etc.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that. These are abilities that distinguish themselves from other classes. It isn't apparent that someone is playing a favored soul vs. a cleric, but a cleric can make themselves apart with a domain ability or a consecrated altar.

I think where you in this camp get it wrong is that these abilities are not interesting in a roleplay sense in a vacuum. If you consecrate an altar, you can roleplay the hell out of it to make it interesting.

I don't think your point has any merit against claiming a class is boring. It's just not for you. I know a lot of players that love FS because of the flexibility alone vs. a cleric.

Could FS use a non-mechanically advantageous cookie? Why not. Does it need it to make it interesting? No.

[Security_Blanket]

Could FS use a non-mechanically advantageous cookie? Why not. Does it need it to make it interesting? No.

Everybody likes cookies, nobody likes to feel left out. Favored Souls feel a little left out.

I don't think your point has any merit against claiming a class is boring. It's just not for you. I know a lot of players that love FS because of the flexibility alone vs. a cleric.

I loved the RP of a Favored Soul, it's the whole reason I picked the class on when I made Lucius. He was a Favored Soul of Bane that hated Bane more than anyone and eventually rose to the position of Dreadlord, I had a lot of fun with that character. But after all that experience, after remaking 3 times, I definitely feel that the Favored Soul class is boring. You can spontaneously cast but you're basically stuck with all the same spells. I feel it's just a matter of time before Word of Faith is nerfed and that right there would be half their arsenal gone.

edit: If you want to make Favored Souls more appealing, give them options. Give them spells to focus in, give them Enchantment Spells, Divination Spells, their lack of spell selection for level 9 spells makes me wanna cry. Give them Dominate Monster, Power Word Kill. There's a stifling limit on how many spells they can select, so give them more options.

[-XXX-]

Gee, I didn't realize that this topic was all about fav souls.

[Ebonstar]

None of that is true at all.

You don’t auto get assigned bonus feats. If you’re a level 23 multi classes character then you’re not a level 23 shaman. Shaman also get spell focus divination for free which is probably what you’re seeing.

Aside from all that, this should go into a big report (but there really isn’t a big here)

FS is not worth crap except as a battle cleric, and even then actual battle clerics are still better. Don't bother taking the class, its not worth it.

And that’s a real bad take on FS. Can I ask how you came to that conclusion?

actually im seeing spell focus conjuration and blindfight neither of which i chose

[Drowboy]

Then you're either bugged or you absolutely 100% chose them and are mistaken.

[garrbear758]

Constructive criticism: I don't like this feature because of x, which is an issue because of y. Maybe consider doing z which would benefit the class by w.

Complaining: This class sucks I hate it. This class is boring. This class lacks direction. I don't like this class.

This is forum is for feedback not complaining. If you don't like a class, provide constructive criticism or just don't play it. Scurvy's post is a good example of constructive criticism. The majority of this thread is not.

[Security_Blanket]

This is forum is for feedback not complaining. If you don't like a class, provide constructive criticism or just don't play it. Scurvy's post is a good example of constructive criticism. The majority of this thread is not.

If you want to make Favored Souls more appealing, give them options. Give them spells to focus in, give them Enchantment Spells, Divination Spells, their lack of spell selection for level 9 spells makes me wanna cry. Give them Dominate Monster, Power Word Kill. There's a stifling limit on how many spells they can select, so give them more options.

They're personally blessed by a God, whether by their choice or not but even with this innate connection to a God they can't consecrate an altar, even intuitively?

Give them spells to select, let them consecrate altars, give them a language.

[Richrd]

But it only took one incident of me trying to stir stuff up in the mid teens and getting smashed by a bunch of level 30s within the hour to realize that that playstyle doesn't work here on Arelith. There are a few reasons for the culture being this way, and I could go on for hours about them, but its off topic so I will just focus on the main one. The PvP rules, in particular the "rp before fighting", means you have to be the most powerful you possibly can be. The great equalizer in pvp is the gank, and that is removed from the equation all together. So of course everyone not only builds for max power, since max power starts with being level 30 they try to get there just as fast. On a lesser, but still relevant level, the idea that I can go in and kill johnny the drow in the middle of the underdark as a paladin of smite without requiring a dm to react with the setting adds to this philosophy as well. Johnny has to be amped and ready for me to walk up and kill him after saying hello after all no matter where he is.

The truest of trues, so true even that I suspect you of having cast Truesight IRL.

For real though, if you want to play a surface villain on Arelith your RP won't start before level 30. Otherwise you are just asking for being hounded across the collective surface community while leveling.

[Xerah]

The truest of trues, so true even that I suspect you of having cast Truesight IRL.

For real though, if you want to play a surface villain on Arelith your RP won't start before level 30. Otherwise you are just asking for being hounded across the collective surface community while leveling.

Maybe if you're trying to do "cartoon super villain" evil. I've played plenty of surface evil characters and haven't had this issue. I also get bored once I hit level 30, so I generally don't hang around that long afterwards. The "start of game at 30" is something that doesn't resonate with me all (and also why the super fast leveling that we have now kills some enjoyment)