Arelith

Hey there! Invokes looks amazing! But with the addition of Invoker, it leaves very very little reason to go with Sorcerer, for the charisma casting arcane fix.

Would there be anyway to give them arcane flux, so they could also be able to throw out free sustained damage occasionally? Hate the idea of being a cantrip bot, but if this is something that’s already been considered and decided against, I’ll do what’s necessary.

I know this probably isn't what you'd like to hear, but it was a deliberate decision to exclude sorcerers from Arcane Flux, mostly because they're spontaneous casters and already have a ton of additional spell slots and offensive capabilities compared to wizards :)

Sorcerer still has IGMs, lots of spell slots, and arcane synergy on a spontaneous caster.

As it is sorcerer needs no buffs and is still probably the best build in PvP in general, as well as having planar conduit which is still its own can of worms. A competent sorcerer should realistically be able to defeat anyone in PvP, ESPECIALLY because of div sorc

Unless div sorc goes the way of the dodo (which I am not advocating for) the class should not get arcane flux, ESPECIALLY not as a spontaneous caster who loves its maximize IGMs

Dubhwulfe wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:48 pm

Hey there! Invokes looks amazing! But with the addition of Invoker, it leaves very very little reason to go with Sorcerer, for the charisma casting arcane fix.

Would there be anyway to give them arcane flux, so they could also be able to throw out free sustained damage occasionally? Hate the idea of being a cantrip bot, but if this is something that’s already been considered and decided against, I’ll do what’s necessary.

So with the recent buffs to lower lvl spells like fireballs not being maximimum 15d6, etc. you should be able ot spit out a lot of opening damage spells each encounter before resting. ALOT A sorceror gets so many slots. Like we are talking base 6 per tier plus CHA modifier plus items. You will easily have like 10 spell per day for your lvl 1 to 4 slots. So with metamagic you are can be spitting out 20 fireballs only touching lvl 3 and 5 slots.

With grreater spell focus evocation you can infinicast magic misssles which outdamages your scaling cantrips (which you need to spam to get arcane flux on other classes) until almost epic levels. So by not needing to rely on cantrips in your early lvls you are actaully outdamaging your wizard couterparts spamming magic missle instead of cantrips at your earlier lvls with trickles of higher damage opening spells. When you are higher lvls you have so many spells that you can reliably open every encounter with a cool spell and then have your summons clean up.

Kalopsia wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:30 pm

I know this probably isn't what you'd like to hear, but it was a deliberate decision to exclude sorcerers from Arcane Flux, mostly because they're spontaneous casters and already have a ton of additional spell slots and offensive capabilities compared to wizards

Not a problem at all! I can totally understand the mindset there.

Kalopsia wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:30 pm

I know this probably isn't what you'd like to hear, but it was a deliberate decision to exclude sorcerers from Arcane Flux, mostly because they're spontaneous casters and already have a ton of additional spell slots and offensive capabilities compared to wizards

Such is the sad state of affairs for sorcs: because of the outlier div sorc that get boosted saves and AC, it can never receive anything mechanical at the detriment of every other sorc builds.

Sorcs will need to be decoupled from div shield synergy (not div grace) much like FS before they can get any mechanical buffs.

Kenji wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 03, 2022 6:08 am

Sorcs will need to be decoupled from div shield synergy (not div grace) much like FS before they can get any mechanical buffs.

I am no developer nor do I know the reality of coding, but could this be implemented in the form of Paths? I suppose in similiar fashion that Spellswords now come in a variety of flavors.

In Sorcerers case, the paths would likely be the source and the bloodline they gain their powers from. Have one vague for "divine" that grant at most mild flavoring but enables CHA for saves/AC. The rest has it disabled (least the Shield) but receive cookies that fit their bloodline respectively.

Would something like that work?

Skarain wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:03 am

Kenji wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 03, 2022 6:08 am

Sorcs will need to be decoupled from div shield synergy (not div grace) much like FS before they can get any mechanical buffs.

I am no developer nor do I know the reality of coding, but could this be implemented in the form of Paths? I suppose in similiar fashion that Spellswords now come in a variety of flavors.

In Sorcerers case, the paths would likely be the source and the bloodline they gain their powers from. Have one vague for "divine" that grant at most mild flavoring but enables CHA for saves/AC. The rest has it disabled (least the Shield) but receive cookies that fit their bloodline respectively.

Would something like that work?

If we introduce it as a feat, limitations can certainly be scripted based on bloodlines for Sorcerers. However, bloodline choices should become permanent save for DM intervention.

On the development side, there are plenty of reasons why the developers avoid classes such as Sorcerer, Druid, Rogue, Shifter, and Monk. Although they all deserve overhauls, designing, discussing, balancing, and receiving player feedback can be long and arduous.

Out of curiosity, why is Arcane Flux seen as such a big power spike for sorcerers? It looks to me as really only a PVE buff, not a PVP buff. Sure if you're lucky and happened to trigger it on your way to a PVP fight you might get an extra casting of a spell, but does anyone use cantrips in PVP? I'd expect they'd be too busy spamming higher level spells like IGMS to ever get arcane flux triggers.

If it is really only a PVE buff, does it matter if sorcs get a bit stronger and are a bit more reliable in PVE?

Kenji wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 03, 2022 6:08 am

Sorcs will need to be decoupled from div shield synergy (not div grace) much like FS before they can get any mechanical buffs.

IMO killing div dips for sorc is long overdue. Especially since they limit the design space for the class and shoehorn it into specific build and alignment choices.

So the answer was no they have enough spells per rest already.

no one plays div shield sorcs

the mediocre ac they get is not worth the sacrifices they make

they are bad

^That probably tells us more about the current state of the sorcerer class than it does about div dips on CHA builds.

Still, even if somebody from the team wanted to do something with sorcerers, div dips existing greatly limits their options, as has been noted countless times before.

To add some clarity to my post: I have played a great many sorcerers on this server. I've played div dips, bard dips, warlock dips, ranger dips, and even specialist dips. Whatever the flavour, sorcerer is easily my favourite class.

My favourite dip is and probably will always be a ranger dip. For 3 levels of ranger I get an extra feat on a class that can really use it (especially if you're not a human,) and access to one of the single strongest abilities in the game: stealth. The sacrifice I make for this is 14-15 uni saves from divine grace.

Don't get me wrong, this is a big deal. That's a lot of saves. But realistically I have the time and requisite masochism to hard 5% my gear with enough stats, uni saves, and skills, that it ends up not mattering. I realise I'm probably in the minority on this, and it's definitely the most appealing dip if you don't care about stealth or don't want to do frustrating gearing.

To most people, taking 3 levels of paladin, blackguard, or even hexblade, probably seems like God's gift to the class.

To people who invest time, energy, and their fading sanity into optimizing their gear, it's just the dip that doesn't have stealth. The most fun I ever had on sorcerer was the brief period in which Blackguard had Hide & Move Silently. I will forever be sad that it was taken away, but it was absolutely necessary.

As for div shield, last I checked it gives you a mage that'll get roughly mid-50sAC. That won't defend you from a lot except maybe some vampire summons, and it costs a not inconsiderable number of feats, not to mention having to sacrifice CON for STR on a d4HD class. It's not worth it. I'm sure a build that gets 60 AC will be rolled out as something anyone would actually want to play, sacrificing as it does any form of utility or enjoyment to be a mediocre build with the same inability to kill anyone that knows how to use healing items as every other mage, but I don't think anyone is actually playing it.

Sorcerer is a good class, and remains my favourite class in NWN even with all Arelith's additions. It's strong as far as mages go, fun to play, and I get to cast IGMS a lot. I don't want Arcane Flux, that would be beyond pointless. If anything were added to Sorcerer I'd want it to be Pathfinder-style bloodlines. If the dev team would like to remove Divine Shield from Sorcerers to achieve something like this, go ahead. No one will notice.

Imperatrix wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:12 pm

To add some clarity to my post: I have played a great many sorcerers on this server. I've played div dips, bard dips, warlock dips, ranger dips, and even specialist dips. Whatever the flavour, sorcerer is easily my favourite class.

My favourite dip is and probably will always be a ranger dip. For 3 levels of ranger I get an extra feat on a class that can really use it (especially if you're not a human,) and access to one of the single strongest abilities in the game: stealth. The sacrifice I make for this is 14-15 uni saves from divine grace.

Don't get me wrong, this is a big deal. That's a lot of saves. But realistically I have the time and requisite masochism to hard 5% my gear with enough stats, uni saves, and skills, that it ends up not mattering. I realise I'm probably in the minority on this, and it's definitely the most appealing dip if you don't care about stealth or don't want to do frustrating gearing.

To most people, taking 3 levels of paladin, blackguard, or even hexblade, probably seems like God's gift to the class.

To people who invest time, energy, and their fading sanity into optimizing their gear, it's just the dip that doesn't have stealth. The most fun I ever had on sorcerer was the brief period in which Blackguard had Hide & Move Silently. I will forever be sad that it was taken away, but it was absolutely necessary.

As for div shield, last I checked it gives you a mage that'll get roughly mid-50sAC. That won't defend you from a lot except maybe some vampire summons, and it costs a not inconsiderable number of feats, not to mention having to sacrifice CON for STR on a d4HD class. It's not worth it. I'm sure a build that gets 60 AC will be rolled out as something anyone would actually want to play, sacrificing as it does any form of utility or enjoyment to be a mediocre build with the same inability to kill anyone that knows how to use healing items as every other mage, but I don't think anyone is actually playing it.

Sorcerer is a good class, and remains my favourite class in NWN even with all Arelith's additions. It's strong as far as mages go, fun to play, and I get to cast IGMS a lot. I don't want Arcane Flux, that would be beyond pointless. If anything were added to Sorcerer I'd want it to be Pathfinder-style bloodlines. If the dev team would like to remove Divine Shield from Sorcerers to achieve something like this, go ahead. No one will notice.

If they are having innate inability to kill someone with the single best burst opener in the game that does ~450 damage including in time stop, while having about 30 minutes of concurrent 60 AC (14 CHA mod 18 casts for a bit under 27 minutes, then 2 recharges at 10 and 20), while managing to maintain more than 400 hp, while having rather great saves across the board?

It is CBT to level certainly, getting to 30, but to say div sorc is weak and overrated is a rather... difficult to put into words statement. Corner sneaking is strong so ranger sorc is pretty alright, but div sorc just gets so much more even with the feat and stat tax, and calling div dip "Just the dip that doesn't have stealth" is an incredible bad faith statement

Edit: Actually sorc even became relatively better with healing pots now being more finite in their chugging nature with the sobriety loss limiting how many you can have, especially on characters with 14 base CON while you're a sorc who has 60 AC and 16 base CON

Edit Again: But Ill fully admit... div sorc is immensely boring. Incredibly so. And awful to level and get div shield so late

div sorc isn't good

Svrtr wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:47 pm

If they are having innate inability to kill someone with the single best burst opener in the game that does ~450 damage including in time stop, while having about 30 minutes of concurrent 60 AC (14 CHA mod 18 casts for a bit under 27 minutes, then 2 recharges at 10 and 20), while managing to maintain more than 400 hp, while having rather great saves across the board?

It is CBT to level certainly, getting to 30, but to say div sorc is weak and overrated is a rather... difficult to put into words statement. Corner sneaking is strong so ranger sorc is pretty alright, but div sorc just gets so much more even with the feat and stat tax, and calling div dip "Just the dip that doesn't have stealth" is an incredible bad faith statement

Edit: Actually sorc even became relatively better with healing pots now being more finite in their chugging nature with the sobriety loss limiting how many you can have, especially on characters with 14 base CON while you're a sorc who has 60 AC and 16 base CON

Edit Again: But Ill fully admit... div sorc is immensely boring. Incredibly so. And awful to level and get div shield so late

That AC image doesn't really tell the full story, however. 60 is not some huge, impregnable amount when you have no expertise; old school 20/7/3 weapon masters in adamantine FP/tower shield got more than that in improved expertise, and I don't think anyone would try to claim that they were some hugely tanky class. 60 (or even the 63 or so that non-monk PMs get nowadays) is enough to give you a little more survivability while you play like a regular ac-less mage, but you are still very mortal in a world where optimal single-hand weapon masters get 52 AB under their own power.

And like I said, there's a lot of very important context on that 60 AC figure. Namely: You have to crater your INT/CON to get the 13 strength you need for this. If you're human, you're probably looking at 14-16 con (If you're non-human you probably don't have enough feats to do this build without dropping something pretty crucial). 16 con means you're sitting at 408 HP without toughness, and you can't fit toughness without dropping something fairly important to the build (and that 450 HP combo you mentioned) as well.

Ironically, this sort of sorcerer is really vulnerable to getting dumpster'd by other mages because of how little health it has.

As well, that's assuming you go 16 con as a human. Doing that means you have a total of 162 skill points. 30 of that gets put into 15 cc'd tumble ranks, another 15 goes into parry, 33 into concentration, 33 into discipline, which leaves you with 51 to play with. Me personally, I'd want to get ahold of both lore and some spellcraft at that point - lore to try and get WoF scrolls in case of conduit (which has enough AB to threaten you), and spellcraft so that you can try to counterspell folks reliably (Since you do need to make spellcraft checks to counterspell). No hide/ms, no leadership, no other skills that are well worth having on a mage.

And at the end of the day, Mr Optimal Weapon Master can still run up and drop you from full health to dead in a flurry if he gets lucky on his crits, between his opening flurry and whirlwind attack.

Div Sorcerer has its place, but using it to become Mr. Unkillable Mage Man isn't one of them in today's Arelith.

(Frankly, the real reason I'd be wary about buffing sorcerer is still the age old sorcerer-wizard balance and how close wizard is to being worthless at the moment, but that's another topic)


Edit: Actually, forgot about epic spells having a hard spellcraft requirement. Probably not enough lore for WoF scrolls in that case, but enjoy the 20ish ranks of bluff or whatever, I guess.

The idea wasn't that div dip sorcs would be too good right now.

The actual argument was that div dips should probably go because any future hypothetical tweaks to the sorc class would come at the risk of becoming too good in combination with a div dip.
This doesn't concern only the class itself, but stuff like gear, spells, boons etc. There's a myriad of things that could be done with sorc that simply aren't happening because they'd be broken with a div dip. The mediocrity of the current div dip sorc builds only confirms that it's something not worth keeping.

Just so we are clear, a div dip sorceror pushing for ac doesn't reach 50s. It reaches high 60s almost 70 territory. I can already hit 60s on a 27/3 wizard.

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 09, 2022 5:31 pm

Just so we are clear, a div dip sorceror pushing for ac doesn't reach 50s. It reaches high 60s almost 70 territory. I can already hit 60s on a 27/3 wizard.

What is the build? 27 Wizard and 3 what? What else do you do to pump up those numbers?

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 09, 2022 5:31 pm

Just so we are clear, a div dip sorceror pushing for ac doesn't reach 50s. It reaches high 60s almost 70 territory. I can already hit 60s on a 27/3 wizard.

Do you have some more explicit build-outs to back that up?

A wizard? Say you max tumble and parry to get 12 ac, 10 from improved expertise, 10 base, and 2 gear, 2amour skin, 10 dex (start 18 dex)... 46 ac already and where does the other 14 come from

(Look at my old 23 ac wizard and cry hard)

I very much agree that div sorc is not the problem.

It is not very often that mage duals or mage vs melee fight is decided by the mage's AC. A sorc with ranger dip can get to +20 soft cap save (and plenty of it from unisave and not just spellcraft) and has quite reliable saves as is. Div sorc's saves are an overkill. I think Ranger dip that gives a free feat and access to stealth skills easily outperforms a div sorc in most situations when both are played by skilled sorc players and if div sorc was to get any nerfs we'll just not see any of those at all (and we already see very few of them around, correct me if I'm wrong) and ranger dip would become the next best qol fun sorc and is already arguably better in high skill end game pvp.

Sorc doesnt need buffs simply because it has a good kit. lots of spells. Spontaneous. Can nuke for 400+ damage within a time stop duration and even more if combo-ed with the hellball's saveless KD affect and simply has a lot more fuel to run with, compared to wizard.

xf1313 wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 09, 2022 6:32 pm

A wizard? Say you max tumble and parry to get 12 ac, 10 from improved expertise, 10 base, and 2 gear, 2amour skin, 10 dex (start 18 dex)... 46 ac already and where does the other 14 come from

(Look at my old 23 ac wizard and cry hard)

A majority wizard build (Ie, anything with more than 20 levels) isn't going to get more than 4 ac from parry, and most variations of this build are only going to get 3 (because they don't get to 20 BAB). You also can't cast in improved expertise, so it's kind of silly to suggest that's a viable path on a wizard.

Honestly (hot take time) I don't think any arcane class is in a particularly good place right now, but that's a whole 'nother topic to deal with.

Yeah, 90% of the arcane spell list consists of spells that are either DC based CC effects or direct damage spells that deal superficial damage.
Even the oh-so-dreaded evo combo falls short in a hp 500+ meta. This puts the arcanist kit into a one trick pony place where even then their one and only PvP gimmick isn't good enough.