Rewards Lock

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AstralUniverse
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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Jul 23, 2022 9:44 pm

I have to agree with Ork on this one.

In most cases you yell "Tiefling! bring the torches and pitchforks" you're met with a group of the tieflings friends from their choice of settlement, staring at you like you're a lunatic.
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Atlus
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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Atlus » Sat Jul 23, 2022 9:46 pm

I think being bigoted in RP toward some races is fine for RP.

Emphasis on some. I've had bad experiences with this bleeding into IRL racism and dogwhistle behavior in other collab rp settings and it's ultimately just not fun for anyone. Mainstream D&D has been normalizing some more monstrous races as standard for a while now and trying to run everything out of town eventually becomes incompatible for developing RP. Maybe someone DOES need to RP a certain race to explore certain character ideas? Reductive thinking otherwise gives the excuse that we don't need anything besides humans to play a character.

The paradigm has changed a while ago and it isn't going to roll back.

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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Ork » Sat Jul 23, 2022 9:49 pm

Atlus wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 9:46 pm
? Reductive thinking otherwise gives the excuse that we don't need anything besides humans to play a character.
This is true. You don’t need other races to tell a convincing tale or to explore the full gamut of other traits or tropes.

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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Atlus » Sat Jul 23, 2022 9:54 pm

Ork wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 9:49 pm
You don’t need other races to tell a convincing tale or to explore the full gamut of other traits or tropes.
You'll be dying on a hill to convince several people in Arelith of this when you decide to threaten the Tolkien-adjacent races, let me tell you that much.

You don't NEED to play a half-giant, vampire, or talking squid! But god forbid you tell them you don't need to play an elf.

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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Xerah » Sat Jul 23, 2022 9:57 pm

It’s 100% not worth it to react to the strange races or you have a very high chance of being RP ostracized.
Sorry to the people that want to play up that dynamic, but it’s not worth it to do so here.
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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Sat Jul 23, 2022 10:02 pm

Grab and pet their wings every time you see them and they'll start avoiding you. Modern problems require modern solutions.

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Algol
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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Algol » Sat Jul 23, 2022 10:13 pm

I honestly think any special races (maybe except filborgs, and elf sub types) should have a DM approval in order to be created on surface. Otherwise they should only get outcast start.

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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by MissEvelyn » Sat Jul 23, 2022 10:17 pm

Ork wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 9:37 pm
MissEvelyn wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 9:23 pm
"By gods it's a tiefling" with a pitchfork is very much a viable view to have on tieflings, and I find it rather disturbing that you would try to dissuade players from roleplaying tiefling hating and fearing characters.
There is no dissuasion, only acceptance. 10 years ago, you might spot a tiefling or a RDD's wings and galvanize the city to expel them from the city. This isn't our culture any more. If you attempt to do this now, you're met with persecution yourself for being revolted by a tiefling's presence. Say I'm wrong.

That's not to say you shouldn't still roleplay mistrust of a tiefling, but I think we're innundated with players that have a general apathy to that roleplay or disgust for racially-motivated conflict.
No, you're not wrong, but it is a shame. The amount of interesting roleplay that can be created from racial tension in-game (emphasis on IC, for gods' sake) is vast and waiting to be explored.

I don't think it's as much a case of older players getting tired of that kind of roleplay as it is newer players coming from 5e culture and mindsets where everyone is special character with monstrous features. And since EE launched, I'd venture a guess and say we have more newer players than older.

So the server culture gets shifted, I do acknowledge that. I just don't like it. If I'm playing a zealous evil-hating character, I'll happily take the shunning. It makes for a "this city is a bastion of evil and decay" approach, which is also an interesting path to follow.

The issue arises when you get shunned OOC for that kind of roleplay. More and more it's becoming harder to find a group that will accept that. Not just on Arelith, but in the world overall. Hence my comment that Arelith is a bastion of 3.5 RP, of a time when politics didn't bleed into the game as much as they do now.

That said, Arelith is big! There will always be someone who is compatible with your character, who shares some of the same goals and visions. And if not? It can still be interesting! Butting heads with those within your own factions because of your views on tieflings and evil-derived races? That sounds like a potentially interesting story to me.


zeroth
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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by zeroth » Sat Jul 23, 2022 10:24 pm

I have a suggestion;

In light of the recent changes, how about we allow for example, two minor to be transmuted to a normal award and two normal award to be transmuted to a greater award, and two greater awards to be transmuted to a major award?

There is really some of us who still roll a normal after like 20 rolls. This will make everyone happier really.

Thanks for hearing me out.

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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sat Jul 23, 2022 10:38 pm

Hi. The reward system has always been silly for a RP server. It rewards random luck and grinding over storytelling. I'm looking forward to seeing what the point buy system looks like in hopes of being shocked, because it would take a true shocker to create a system that doesn't just continue to reward random luck and grinding in the way the old system did, only now with the ability to voltron it into something bigger.


If only there was a way to not only ensure that rare races are rare, but people who play them not only know how to tell a story around the race they are playing but are doing it for the story and not purely for the power level. Like I have this vision of a person or a group of persons wanting to play something, writing up their idea, and having another group trusted by the server architect to decide whether or not it fits and if there are too many folks currently playing that race/cool idea, but I just kind find the right word for it. Ah well, maybe it will come to me eventually ;)

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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Aradin » Sat Jul 23, 2022 10:48 pm

Ork wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 9:37 pm
That's not to say you shouldn't still roleplay mistrust of a tiefling, but I think we're innundated with players that have a general apathy to that roleplay or disgust for racially-motivated conflict.
The apathy comes from exposure. It's the same reason why trying to be xenophobic towards surfacers in Andunor gets old fast; there are always surfacers there nowadays. If every tenth person I see is a half-giant/tiefling/kenku/gloaming/some kind of non-"standard" fantasy race, it's exhausting to try and react to each of them uniquely. At this point if I tried to constantly be awed by a non-standard race, it'd be the only thing I ever did. Walk through most given settlements with any player activity, you'll see a handful of strange races. Walk through any number of areas and you'll meet non-standard-race NPCs who are accepted as common by everyone else, like the kenku at Nexus Falls or the gloaming at Andunor's Deep Gate. Common exposure to these fantastic races is literally built into the server. At some point it feels like you just have to get used to it, because doing otherwise is exhausting.

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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Amateur Hour » Sat Jul 23, 2022 11:57 pm

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 10:38 pm
Hi. The reward system has always been silly for a RP server. It rewards random luck and grinding over storytelling. I'm looking forward to seeing what the point buy system looks like in hopes of being shocked, because it would take a true shocker to create a system that doesn't just continue to reward random luck and grinding in the way the old system did, only now with the ability to voltron it into something bigger.


If only there was a way to not only ensure that rare races are rare, but people who play them not only know how to tell a story around the race they are playing but are doing it for the story and not purely for the power level. Like I have this vision of a person or a group of persons wanting to play something, writing up their idea, and having another group trusted by the server architect to decide whether or not it fits and if there are too many folks currently playing that race/cool idea, but I just kind find the right word for it. Ah well, maybe it will come to me eventually ;)
Frankly, I'm all in favor of app gating a lot more stuff, or at least gating things behind basic lore tests. I know some players break out in hives at the idea of having to "earn" a character in any way, but it'd hopefully help prevent, say, players making kenku who talk like normal people.

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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:07 am

Aradin wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 10:48 pm
Ork wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 9:37 pm
That's not to say you shouldn't still roleplay mistrust of a tiefling, but I think we're innundated with players that have a general apathy to that roleplay or disgust for racially-motivated conflict.
The apathy comes from exposure. It's the same reason why trying to be xenophobic towards surfacers in Andunor gets old fast; there are always surfacers there nowadays.
I singled this line out, because I agree with the rest of your post. But honestly, a xenophobe would only get more enraged by the growing number of surfacers and in my mind at least the sheer number makes it potentially a more interesting story line. Picking on the three humans in a lesser version would be the thing that gets old fast, fighting the tide of change is a story line you will never win and therefore can last as long as you feel like telling it.

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Paint
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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Paint » Sun Jul 24, 2022 2:41 am

Back when the chancellor of Cordor was a tiefling earlier this year, one of my characters who had never met her before was attending a meeting where she was involved. She said, "Who let this tiefling in?" and immediately got smacked upside the head by her superiors. It was really funny. Would do it again.

I don't have anything else to contribute to the meat of this conversation, though.

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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Royal Blood » Sun Jul 24, 2022 6:02 am

I think the server many of us want is something moderated more closely. But then, we'd not be able to agree on the extent of that moderation! And what's fair or not fair etc...

I.... Super enjoy more new races but I think as many have pointed out it'll maybe be over done. I gotta say one big turn off for me on another server was like doing my thing and everyone I bumped into was an ultra rare super dragon or something.

The issue with a ton of unique races I think is,

I feel like the aesthetic becomes the totality of the character in many situations leaving the ultimate depth of the character to be stunningly shallow and ultimately unrewarding to interact with. The unique races are maybe like.sugar? But you get too much sugar and you get sick of it... Idk best way I can think to describe it!

My characters don't even react anymore. So many wings and other things pass by it's not even fun to RP being interested or surprised.

I met an old dragon PC when they could be super big dragons. The character revealed their true race to my character privately after a longer plot. I had never ever seen one and was like legit shocked IRL. That kinda moment I think is what makes the unique races fun.

Last note, I think DMs and server plot could be better defined to offer more purpose to races over all. The Shadovar are super neat for example but I think lack a lot of tangible lore to form compelling characters of within the setting. They can't interact with any Shadovar stuff so far as I'm aware. All the content needs to be player generated but there's a severe limit to what players can come up with on their own.
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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Richrd » Sun Jul 24, 2022 7:13 am

Royal Blood wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 6:02 am
lack a lot of tangible lore
Here's the thing. Arelith is very open with it's lore and the sources it draws from. There is no homebrew, everything can be looked up elsewhere should it not be explained thoroughly enough on the server's own fantastic wiki. Simply investing 10 minutes into quickly researching the race/class you wish to play next is enough to improve your ability to convincingly portray that race/class by a lot. With more time invested a player could even come up with a reasonable goal or motivation for their character just based on their race/class alone.

The problem comes in when players blatantly ignore the source material and decide to, for a lack of a proper word here, go full Deviantart-OC-donotsteal-rainboweyes mode with their character. I can't name any specific examples because that would be bullying. But let's just say that my return to Arelith was thoroughly soured by the fact that every settlement I went to had firbolgs in it who gave me the impression that they were trying their hardest to break their chosen race's lore in every aspect. Like they were using Arelith's very own wiki entry on firbolgs as a checklist for "lore I am going to break today".

And I find it real strange that the reactions to this getting brought up often consist of reductive responses such as : "Why do you care?" "Just go play somewhere else if you do not like it." "Don't tell others how to roleplay." "If it were not okay the DMs would say something."

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-XXX-
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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by -XXX- » Sun Jul 24, 2022 8:40 am

I think that most of us here know why lootboxes are bad, so I'm not going to delve too deep into their effect on human psychology.
Arelith is a free server, which is a major distinction here, but the award system does resemble lootboxes a little too much for my liking.
It'd seem to me that award grind addiction has become real, so big kudos to the team for recognizing that and implementing the recent award cooldowns.


Now, the gameplay aspects of lootboxes. We could split those games that use actual lootboxes into two categories:

- cosmetic: players are given access to the full extent of the game's mechanics and game elements locked behind lootboxes are purely of cosmetic nature. This is still mostly fine (?)

- "pay" to win: the content locked behind lootboxes gives the player a clear mechanical advantage once unlocked. The predatory nature of this set aside, this is also detrimental for gameplay. I'd like to reiterate and emphasize that Arelith is a free server, so recognizing that it'd have been more accurate, fair and appropriate to call this "grind" to win here (which is still detrimental to gameplay).

Award races should not have anything special going for them mechanically. Wings, horns, tails, skins - those are all fine as they are only cosmetic perks. Any mechanical perks (stats, abilities, size) however introduce a clear advantage, no matter how small, that are still being locked inside an "award lootbox".

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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Ebonstar » Sun Jul 24, 2022 10:33 am

its funny seeing this " i hate having to wait to play a special character"

Over the years ive seen many major and greater award characters and the majority of them, yes about 90% dont last a month. In the mind it seems to be awesome to play, and then when the player is seen on a new toon and asked about there reward toon, they have all said it just wasnt as fun as i thought it would be.

A DM in PnP once told me and it still applies here because ive heard it here as well, Can your plan for the character be done by only being special? or would being special simply make it special in the eyes of other players?

There is still too much grinding being done imo, writs have made all midlevel content something characters laugh about while waiting for their writs to recycle. Worse off is the now popular line being tossed around is" Why do you talk and interfere with writworkers doing their writ?

When did we use writs as a crutch to be in game?
When did rp during anything become a bad idea?


These cooldown locks are a damn good thing, because they will remind players to play their characters and stop treating Arelith as drag strip to rolling for rewards.
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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Hazard » Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:15 pm

Ebonstar wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 10:33 am
its funny seeing this " i hate having to wait to play a special character"

Over the years ive seen many major and greater award characters and the majority of them, yes about 90% dont last a month. In the mind it seems to be awesome to play, and then when the player is seen on a new toon and asked about there reward toon, they have all said it just wasnt as fun as i thought it would be.

A DM in PnP once told me and it still applies here because ive heard it here as well, Can your plan for the character be done by only being special? or would being special simply make it special in the eyes of other players?

There is still too much grinding being done imo, writs have made all midlevel content something characters laugh about while waiting for their writs to recycle. Worse off is the now popular line being tossed around is" Why do you talk and interfere with writworkers doing their writ?

When did we use writs as a crutch to be in game?
When did rp during anything become a bad idea?


These cooldown locks are a damn good thing, because they will remind players to play their characters and stop treating Arelith as drag strip to rolling for rewards.
A big reason why it isn't as fun as they'd think it would be is the treatment towards them, and the ability to actually roleplay that race on Arelith. You often find yourself restricted by Arelith's culture of Mechanics > RP. PvP Might makes right, and 'What You See Is What You Get.' If you cannot mechanically do something, to most players these days .. it isn't real or worth engaging in, yet if we were to give them all those abilities, people would cry that it is too much and unfair.

Playing an exotic thing on Arelith can be a huge headache, when you take into account the behavioural issues it can stir up in certain parts of the playerbase, as well.

People are far more likely to be judgemental/exclusive than they are willing to actually engage in 'proper RP of the race'.

The few (yes, few) people who have taken the time to get to know my 5% characters have given me the most wonderful compliments I've ever gotten in this game, and thank you for that .. But for each one of those, there have been 20+ individuals who say a snarky thing as they enter the screen and are gone before anyone can reply. 'oH a fiRbOlG iN a CiTy? tHiS iSlaNd iS sO sTrAnGe' ... While my poor Firbolg who literally just stepped foot in the city for the first time this (real life) year looks around for who said that- Oh. They're already gone.

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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by evilkittenofdoom » Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:15 pm

Hazard wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:15 pm
... But for each one of those, there have been 20+ individuals who say a snarky thing as they enter the screen and are gone before anyone can reply. 'oH a fiRbOlG iN a CiTy? tHiS iSlaNd iS sO sTrAnGe' ... While my poor Firbolg who literally just stepped foot in the city for the first time this (real life) year looks around for who said that- Oh. They're already gone.
The issue here is how many people are just rushing by before people have a chance to interact. This is exactly what I'm hoping this change will bring about. People slowing down. More of us taking the time to actually start a conversation rather than making passing comments in the interest of just getting another character done to roll.
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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:55 pm

Leveling as a system to gate award races really bloody sucks and I hate it. I really look forward to it changing some day. It is irrtating and annoying and ugh! It worked at one time because it took a long time to level. Now it doesn't and so it is, imo, one of the worst issues the server faces. I dispise it.

I think the reward lock will change. I'm not quite sure what people mean by 'it'll just encourage people to hold onto characters.' I'm a little concerned they think 'two months' is a long lived character. To me 'two years' is a long lived character.

I'm not quite sure of the logic behind that. But I hope that having the reward lock will encourage better behaviour a bit, at least until we can get something better in.
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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by AstralUniverse » Sun Jul 24, 2022 2:39 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:55 pm
I think the reward lock will change. I'm not quite sure what people mean by 'it'll just encourage people to hold onto characters.' I'm a little concerned they think 'two months' is a long lived character. To me 'two years' is a long lived character.
Rest assured we dont mean that.

But if you get a stream of normal awards over and over again, you might just hang on to your Tiefling and continue playing it for 5 years instead of 2 years, while you fish for your next major award 1 character per month. And it's not like we dont have people in key power position in settlements for 5+ years on a row so it's a real thing already when people could roll as many as they like.
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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:03 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 2:39 pm
The GrumpyCat wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:55 pm
I think the reward lock will change. I'm not quite sure what people mean by 'it'll just encourage people to hold onto characters.' I'm a little concerned they think 'two months' is a long lived character. To me 'two years' is a long lived character.
Rest assured we dont mean that.

But if you get a stream of normal awards over and over again, you might just hang on to your Tiefling and continue playing it for 5 years instead of 2 years, while you fish for your next major award 1 character per month. And it's not like we dont have people in key power position in settlements for 5+ years on a row so it's a real thing already when people could roll as many as they like.
I mean yeah, that is a very valid point and I'm not sure how we deal with it to be honest.

What that comes down to is the 'rarer' (by whatever method) we make award races, the longer people will hold on because of percieved value (I may never get this again...)

I'll put my hand up and confess to being guilty of this. I've some award race pcs in my bank I've never rolled. I probably should, but I've not. *shrug* Though they are (mostly) well and truly retired.

I think this will be a problem, in some way or other, no matter what we do, unless we literally get rid of all barriers in playing a tierfling/aasimar/ect and I don't think that we're willing to do that.

Sadly all the solutions to it are going to be vastly unpopular and problematic.

* - Mandator MoD (pvp only?) for certain races(1)
* - Manatory life span (whether played or not) for certain races
*- Mandatory life span (purely on log in time) for certain races.

None of these options are going to be liked, and all of them have valid points against them and ultimatly it's a problem that is only going to get worse. Still - ce le vie.


(1) On the one hand, very legitimate concerns about pvp griefing ect will come up about this, but I will say that a little bit of me kinda likes this opinion in a way for certain races, (e.g. tieflings) as it encourages people not to be too open about their heritage.
This too shall pass.

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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Quidix » Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:10 pm

Could instead providing a small bonus to the award roll based on (1) "logged in time" and / or, (2) rarity of race, be used to encourage retirement of very long-standing or rare characters?

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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:26 pm

Quidix wrote:
Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:10 pm
Could instead providing a small bonus to the award roll based on (1) "logged in time" and / or, (2) rarity of race, be used to encourage retirement of very long-standing or rare characters?
Those arn't bad ideas, especially the first one, but the second one tends to exaserbate the problem no? At least at present under this system. With 5% options being the rarest, how does one make something more rare? Meanwhile the bonuses from the other tiers make majors more common in general.

Still not an idea to be entirely disguarded, might work with a few tweaks? Something to consider though if placed in, it'd be with the new award system, not with our current.
This too shall pass.

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