Rewards Lock

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Yvesza
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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Yvesza » Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:52 pm

Ork wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:23 pm
Why are you making roll-bait characters? Maybe you're right and Arelith isn't for you.
Or maybe people play games differently and trying to gatekeep enjoyment never ends well for anyone? Not every character is made to last very long, nor does every character hit the right notes.

Evianna
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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Evianna » Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:57 pm

Algol wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:55 pm
It's perfectly normal to have a character that just doesn't click and have them deleted in pretty short amount of time. But I don't see why such characters should be rewarded? IMO "Epic Sacrifice" shouldn't be seen as a reward for leveling a character but rather investing in one.
I've only played 3 concept characters in the space of a year and a half for 12 hours+ a day, and been "rewarded" with 3 normals. I kept on playing them while levelling alts on the side for my chance at playing something AFTER those characters' stories were done. Before this change came in, that was a viable way for me to farm an award or three on the side. Now that isn't an option for me - I just have to suck it up every 2 months. I get what you're saying, but the RNG system is the best we had, and that's what I worked around.

edit by me: please, mod, at least leave the context in so it doesn't look like I'm ""flaming"" Algol to the viewers at home
Ork wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:23 pm
Why are you making roll-bait characters? Maybe you're right and Arelith isn't for you.
EDIT BY MODERATOR: Flaming/personal attacks part removed.
Last edited by Evianna on Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Xerah
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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Xerah » Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:09 pm

I'm not sure why people are getting huffy about this, Arelith is not made for "roll bait" characters; it's completely antithesis to the what this place is and the reward system is supposed to be.

Roll bait characters are 100% the reason why there is a reward lock timeout on there right now. It's the same reason why the Guldorand reward had limited rolling options. It's the same reason why -ECL was removed. It's the same reason why goblins lost their -1 ECL.

This behavior has long been said it is undesirable and efforts are continually made to curb this behavior.
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Evianna
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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Evianna » Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:22 pm

Xerah wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:09 pm
I'm not sure why people are getting huffy about this, Arelith is not made for "roll bait" characters; it's completely antithesis to the what this place is and the reward system is supposed to be.

Roll bait characters are 100% the reason why there is a reward lock timeout on there right now. It's the same reason why the Guldorand reward had limited rolling options. It's the same reason why -ECL was removed. It's the same reason why goblins lost their -1 ECL.

This behavior has long been said it is undesirable and efforts are continually made to curb this behavior.
The "reward" for playing as intended is oftentimes worse than playing the "unintended" way.

If I am continuing to play this intended way - putting high effort into a character, continuing to foster RP and tell a story on them, including everyone, etc, etc - while on the side, working towards something I want to play at no detriment to my main character, why would I not do that?

If something is locked behind the major award, and I wish to play it - not to be special, not for mechanical power, just because I WANT to play it - how am I hurting the server by grinding in quiet hours so that I can do so and tell a story I actually want to tell, not one that's what someone else thinks I should be telling?

The way you say 'behavior' makes it sound as if something undesirable is happening, but in reality it's the same exact thing as if I just rolled better on the main character's RNG.
you may remember me from such idiot characters as:

mystery

iyelle ixit'shii - waiting for her Death to come for her in Menzoberranzan
raimie mistmantle - sold into slavery
yukana ("malyss") - in a castle with her elf in kozakura

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MissEvelyn
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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by MissEvelyn » Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:49 pm

Evianna wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:22 pm
Xerah wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:09 pm
I'm not sure why people are getting huffy about this, Arelith is not made for "roll bait" characters; it's completely antithesis to the what this place is and the reward system is supposed to be.

Roll bait characters are 100% the reason why there is a reward lock timeout on there right now. It's the same reason why the Guldorand reward had limited rolling options. It's the same reason why -ECL was removed. It's the same reason why goblins lost their -1 ECL.

This behavior has long been said it is undesirable and efforts are continually made to curb this behavior.
The "reward" for playing as intended is oftentimes worse than playing the "unintended" way.

If I am continuing to play this intended way - putting high effort into a character, continuing to foster RP and tell a story on them, including everyone, etc, etc - while on the side, working towards something I want to play at no detriment to my main character, why would I not do that?

If something is locked behind the major award, and I wish to play it - not to be special, not for mechanical power, just because I WANT to play it - how am I hurting the server by grinding in quiet hours so that I can do so and tell a story I actually want to tell, not one that's what someone else thinks I should be telling?

The way you say 'behavior' makes it sound as if something undesirable is happening, but in reality it's the same exact thing as if I just rolled better on the main character's RNG.
It's not the behavior of a few quiet players all alone in a dungeon, but rather the mindset that this is the expectation we now have of an RP server; to grind to 26 at all cost on "roll-bait" characters. That mindset is very much undesirable.

You may not be hurting anyone, but when the dungeon has people in it and we get told "Join, leave, or die" so many times, it absolutely damages the health of our RP server, especially when that mentality becomes the expectation, the norm.

The reward timeout helps curb those kinds of undesirable interactions, and I for one appreciate that.


Wrips
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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Wrips » Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:53 pm

"Join, leave or die" has always happened and has nothing to do with rollbait characters. In fact, this occurrence has reduced now that writs have been extended to level 30.

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Hazard
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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Hazard » Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:52 pm

Ork wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:23 pm
Why are you making roll-bait characters? Maybe you're right and Arelith isn't for you.
Because the system encourages it, so that you can get to the thing you want to do. But they were clearly also just making a point and I think you knew that. Try not to encourage people to leave the server at the drop of a dime, it's toxic. There's better ways to disagree with someone than telling them to leave the community.
Xerah wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:09 pm
I'm not sure why people are getting huffy about this, Arelith is not made for "roll bait" characters; it's completely antithesis to the what this place is and the reward system is supposed to be.

Roll bait characters are 100% the reason why there is a reward lock timeout on there right now. It's the same reason why the Guldorand reward had limited rolling options. It's the same reason why -ECL was removed. It's the same reason why goblins lost their -1 ECL.

This behavior has long been said it is undesirable and efforts are continually made to curb this behavior.
I'm not sure why you're not sure why. You can claim Arelith isn't made for 'roll bait' characters and list the few steps made to mitigate it, but those were relatively recent especially in consideration to how many years they 'weren't' implemented. Like it or not, the fact is Arelith encouraged this behaviour for years (but may not have meant to). I don't like it either, but there has been and will continue to be a lot of it, because of how long it has been around. It will take time for the changes to shift the culture.

Richrd
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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Richrd » Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:05 am

Xerah wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:09 pm
I'm not sure why people are getting huffy about this, Arelith is not made for "roll bait" characters; it's completely antithesis to the what this place is and the reward system is supposed to be.

Roll bait characters are 100% the reason why there is a reward lock timeout on there right now. It's the same reason why the Guldorand reward had limited rolling options. It's the same reason why -ECL was removed. It's the same reason why goblins lost their -1 ECL.

This behavior has long been said it is undesirable and efforts are continually made to curb this behavior.
I don't mean to talk smack about the efforts of the team or anyone else involved. Neither am I going to come in here and propose THE PERFECT SOLUTION to all of Arelith's issues.

But it does seem very wrong, nearly disingenuous, to say that Arelith was never intended for roll bait characters when the structure of the % chance reward system quite literally supported and rewarded making those types of characters for years. It's given Arelith the reputation of a grindy server, with gameplay coming first before RP for a whole lot of people. Not just from the outside but I've met plenty of Arelithian players in my time who've represented that exact opinion and mindset. And yes, I get it, that is not what the intention is behind these decisions. But it's ultimately what they led up to.

And with the current system, the recent change of adding a cooldown to receiving rewards, there is even less reason to roll a PC and allow new blood to come in and hold the reins. Why would I sacrifice a character that I have fun with, even if their story came to the point where ending it would make sense, if what I get for it is most likely going to just end up being a normal award anyways? There's no enforced age restriction even on humans or half-orcs and maybe I'll some day feel like playing that PC again?
The way things currently are I see less and less reasons for any ancient player character who has hundreds of hours worth of stories to share (or thousands even in the extreme cases of PCs like Angela Amana) to end their existence, to be rolled for what could possibly not even be an inspiring reward.
Last edited by Richrd on Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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The GrumpyCat
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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by The GrumpyCat » Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:07 am

Xerah wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:09 pm
I'm not sure why people are getting huffy about this, Arelith is not made for "roll bait" characters; it's completely antithesis to the what this place is and the reward system is supposed to be.

Roll bait characters are 100% the reason why there is a reward lock timeout on there right now. It's the same reason why the Guldorand reward had limited rolling options. It's the same reason why -ECL was removed. It's the same reason why goblins lost their -1 ECL.

This behavior has long been said it is undesirable and efforts are continually made to curb this behavior.
I hate to say it, but Xerah is on the money here.
The "reward" for playing as intended is oftentimes worse than playing the "unintended" way.

If I am continuing to play this intended way - putting high effort into a character, continuing to foster RP and tell a story on them, including everyone, etc, etc - while on the side, working towards something I want to play at no detriment to my main character, why would I not do that?

If something is locked behind the major award, and I wish to play it - not to be special, not for mechanical power, just because I WANT to play it - how am I hurting the server by grinding in quiet hours so that I can do so and tell a story I actually want to tell, not one that's what someone else thinks I should be telling?

The way you say 'behavior' makes it sound as if something undesirable is happening, but in reality it's the same exact thing as if I just rolled better on the main character's RNG.
As aformentioned, the current system is problematic in various ways.

But key issue for this change is as follows:

We want to keep certain awards rare. Years ago the current system somewhat did this, because it took the majority of players up to six months to level to 26. So that rolling not only happened far rarer, but was more of a big deal. Now it takes far less time and effort to get that high - it's a throwaway problem. Part of the answer to this, is to make awards rarer by implementing the time limit.

You're talking about people complaining about how you're playing your pcs. That's not the issue really. You wanna grind 100 pcs to 27 for fun? Go for it! If that's your idea of fun then far be it for the DM team to stop you! And you're entirely right. Some concepts don't work and sometimes you just gotta delete early, and nothing at all is stopping you from that.

But the issue isn't how you play, it's what you WANT to play.
If something is locked behind the major award, and I wish to play it - not to be special, not for mechanical power, just because I WANT to play it - how am I hurting the server by grinding in quiet hours so that I can do so and tell a story I actually want to tell, not one that's what someone else thinks I should be telling?
This is the key point.

We want to make major awards rare. If allow everyone to be able to grind out a major award within a few months then they will no longer be rare and special. The 'method' of grinding almost doesn't matter in this conversation. What matters is that they become so obscenely common that they become meaningless.

To keep on stressing this - again it's not about what you're /doing/ that is an issue. It's how fast it creates awards. If we had a lever in the starter area which gave you a major award every time you pulled it... and then we removed that lever... it's not because we inherently dispise the action of pushing levers, it's because the lever was allowing more awards than we want.


EDIT ADDENDUM

I cannot stress how much I dislike the current roll system.
People saying that it encourages the above sort of behaviour are absolutly 100% correct.
it is at it's core, very, very, very faulty
I cannot stress how problemac that is.
HOWEVER
Getting a new system in takes time. If i could make it go faster, please know that I would.
But this isn't the sort of thing I can wave a wand at and make happen.
So we then have two options. Leave things as is - with the problem of excessive awards. or B) put in the stop gap measure to slow down the main issue. And we did the second.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

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Ebonstar
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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Ebonstar » Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:55 am

I see this again and its funny. Is the greater or major reward the only way to play the concept you want, or is it just to make you stand out like a neon sign saying "im special i got a bigger reward than all of you"

Any concept can be played without a reward at all, it just might not be as flashy or have wings or tails or magical innate abilities. The concept still exists though. You simply have to play it as gods forbid as a standard race.

Last time I checked we still are to put Role play over Roll play, and stay IC at all times while in game save for those times when everyone has a whoopsie and hits the wrong console keystroke.

Lately I have seen more IC breaks by people and just those who dont even take the time to learn about Arelith and how we have done things for years now, not even the basics.

Why should these grinders all the sudden have access to major and greater awards just because they have a list full of grinded roll toons.

They shouldnt imo, and the reward time lock is perfect to stop this behavior and put some basic sense back into the playerbase who have evolved into WoW players having to rush to max level to roll.

in 15 years not once have I even with the gold max and such to boost the roll percentages when I did roll have i gotten more than a normal award. But I have made damn good use of those I have used of normal and minors when needed to as I feel to make everyone playing alongside me have fun. The new system will be fun too.

This new system will be good, because even through all the bitching and crying when it comes down to it, The Teams always put out better content and systems then 99% of everyone else. the 1% are paid game companies in case you wondered.
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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by xf1313 » Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:56 am

Algol wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:55 pm
It's perfectly normal to have a character that just doesn't click and have them deleted in pretty short amount of time. But I don't see why such characters should be rewarded? IMO "Epic Sacrifice" shouldn't be seen as a reward for leveling a character but rather investing in one.
I would incline to partial agreement, if not the fact that there are so many players around...it is just impossible to keep track on who invested effort and what really counts.

To be honest, I worked really hard on my first character, but only got promoted to 20 rpr on second character, on an accident. I can imagine give evaluation on every single characters is a job of nightmare. A few alternatives are available:

1, Character existing time, ones that as been around for X month increase chance for better awards. Well, this definitely encourages long term shelving and deleting shelved characters. Might not be too bad as a suggestion, but cannot really track the effort.

2, Count words spoken throughout history....hm, people can hide in a corner and copy paste LOTR if not history of middle-earth before deleting.

3, Rpr...higher ones gets better stuff. But guess how bad people may feel about it. Being dreamed of reaching 30, but still trying lol.

4, Cannot think of anything else
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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Ork » Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:43 am

Hazard wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:52 pm
Ork wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:23 pm
Why are you making roll-bait characters? Maybe you're right and Arelith isn't for you.
Because the system encourages it, so that you can get to the thing you want to do. But they were clearly also just making a point and I think you knew that. Try not to encourage people to leave the server at the drop of a dime, it's toxic. There's better ways to disagree with someone than telling them to leave the community.
Not all playstyles are appropriate on Arelith, especially ones that are anti-roleplay. Yes, 1 system encourages roll-bait characters, but that doesn't mean we should defend the practice. It is inherently harmful to our game since we have players interested solely in grinding out majors to finally roleplay. That's 10x worse than "RP starts at 30", that's now "RP starts when I get a major". Don't defend bad habits.
Ebonstar wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:55 am
Any concept can be played without a reward at all, it just might not be as flashy or have wings or tails or magical innate abilities. The concept still exists though. You simply have to play it as gods forbid as a standard race.
Well said.

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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Hazard » Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:36 am

Ork wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:43 am
Hazard wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:52 pm
Ork wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:23 pm
Why are you making roll-bait characters? Maybe you're right and Arelith isn't for you.
Because the system encourages it, so that you can get to the thing you want to do. But they were clearly also just making a point and I think you knew that. Try not to encourage people to leave the server at the drop of a dime, it's toxic. There's better ways to disagree with someone than telling them to leave the community.
Not all playstyles are appropriate on Arelith, especially ones that are anti-roleplay. Yes, 1 system encourages roll-bait characters, but that doesn't mean we should defend the practice. It is inherently harmful to our game since we have players interested solely in grinding out majors to finally roleplay. That's 10x worse than "RP starts at 30", that's now "RP starts when I get a major". Don't defend bad habits.
Ebonstar wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:55 am
Any concept can be played without a reward at all, it just might not be as flashy or have wings or tails or magical innate abilities. The concept still exists though. You simply have to play it as gods forbid as a standard race.
Well said.
Not defending bad behaviour is exactly why I decided to call yours out.
You need to treat people with more respect.

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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by xf1313 » Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:55 am

People want to roll for award does not equal to bad players, as long as they treat people with respect and try to be in character, they are like everyone else. I cannot see why others deleting characters are damaging to your experience. That is a very odd statement.

Terrible role play is terrible role play, it would not suddenly become a flashing spotlight because that character is going to stay forever. Those should be dealt accordingly, and definitely not relevant to rewards.
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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Ork » Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:27 am

Hazard wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:36 am
Not defending bad behaviour is exactly why I decided to call yours out.
You need to treat people with more respect.
I don't think my comments are out of line considering they've voiced their reason for playing here is "not being told what to do". If anyone is looking for a server with unrestricted access to random/obscure/unique races, there are better servers than Arelith for that access. Amia, for one.

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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Cowbot » Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:50 am

We want a system that incentivizes good roleplay, inclusivity, and excellent storylines, right? There seems to be some agreement that those are the sorts of people that should be awarded special and rare races.

How about leaning into the -recommend system? -recommend could increase the % chance of getting an award. The base chance to get a rare award (greater? Major?) could be 0%.

Here's how I see it playing out:

Instruct players to -recommend people they had fun RP experiences with.

Each character (not player) has a score that is based on how many unique players (not characters) recommend them. This score increases the percent chance of gaining a higher award some amount, to a cap of some percent.

The player does not know how many times they have been -recommended, or how high their score is, and they never receive this information so the system cannot be reverse-engineered.

This changes the incentive structure to provide pleasing and exciting interactions to the maximum number of other players possible. It also incentivizes longer-lived characters because short-lived characters are unlikely to get many recommendations.

The formula behind how the score is generated can be quite complex. -recommends from people who -recommended you before on another character could count for less than new players, encouraging you to further reach outside of your cliques, for example.

This divorces awards from mechanical grinding. Gold and levels wouldn't matter, only interactions with other players. Thus, it addresses the roll-bait problem.

It doesn't gate out new players: Everyone has a chance of being impressive, and there are strong incentives to aggressively include new players in what you're doing. You want their -recommend.

The only abuse I can think of is recommend-trading could become a thing. People could send tells to one another asking for a recommendation, or do it via Discord. However, there are systems that could potentially forestall that. This includes creating an explicit rule against doing so. I don't think any given person's group of friends would be so expansive as to both contain only people willing to break the rules and enough people to get a substantial boost to an award roll.

Cliques would be more likely to recommend each other across multiple characters, but that's not really a bad thing. The incentive to increase the size of the clique remains, and if we have like 10 or 15 people who are open to others joining them but end up playing together a lot - so? Let them reward one another.

People cannot make 100 characters to recommend their buddy because score is based on unique players.

If you're worried about someone making a character, having their 5-10 buddies recommend them, and then rolling immediately at level 3 as a way to farm a low but existent % chance for a major, then you can still only allow rolling for characters over level 26, or otherwise time-gate reward rolling to a day or two.

It may be a bit tricky to settle on the exact numbers behind the scenes. Someone in the deadest of dead timezones would be at a severe disadvantage if the required score for a capped major roll is too high, and we'd end up with tieflings everywhere if it were set too low. Even so, I think a balance could be struck. For example, I think even in the worst timezone getting 20 players to recommend your character over the course of several months is doable.

Or perhaps player recommendations need not be unique, but just on a cooldown. For example, I could give my friend Sarah a -recommend that counts towards her character's score every month. It'd lessen the incentive to expand one's clique, but cliquey characters would still need to be around a long time to get a roll.

One thing it does not address is characters that already exist, and the compounding problem. There is no incentive to roll a major award race, and so the number of major award characters ever-increases over time. The only way to keep the ratio "proper" (whatever ratio that would be) is to constantly increase the playerbase or to delete existing award characters (which I think is a horrible idea).

It's just an idea. I figured if Grumpycat was willing to put out ideas to be torn apart for the sake of discussion, I could do the same. I look forward to seeing everyone's thoughts.

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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Evianna » Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:53 am

This myth that the more common and mundane your race, the better the RP you have to offer is needs to have a firm cap put on it right now. Perpetuating the idea that people wish to RP award races purely to be special, even going so far as belittling them and recommending they go elsewhere is not a good look. There is a tendency to purposely obfuscate that there are a myriad of reasons someone might want to play a certain race or class. It is bordering on a hostile mentality towards anyone who doesn't want to play a base race.

Hazard's right. A little respect goes a long way in a niche community like this. Telling people to leave the community because you disagree with them is like reading 4chan, not the Arelith forums.
Last edited by Evianna on Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
you may remember me from such idiot characters as:

mystery

iyelle ixit'shii - waiting for her Death to come for her in Menzoberranzan
raimie mistmantle - sold into slavery
yukana ("malyss") - in a castle with her elf in kozakura

Richrd
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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Richrd » Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:56 am

The point is not that everyone should have access to these special races at any given time. That's not an opinion I've seen being voiced here even once. I would call this a strawman argument at best.

The point is that the current system, one that has been in place for a long time, is purely RNG based. It's not based on merit, RP style, experience or anything. Just pure luck which you could manipulate by a small margin by not being absolutely poor at max level.
An application process would be a hundred times better but we'll never see that happen because Arelith is laughably oversized when it comes to it's total community size to available DMs ratio.

Now about what Ebonstar said.
This new system will be good, because even through all the bitching and crying when it comes down to it, The Teams always put out better content and systems then 99% of everyone else. the 1% are paid game companies in case you wondered.
"bitching and crying", what a lovely and constructive way to describe the mostly constructive feedback that's been given. Thank you, especially considering that you are an Arelith veteran this makes me feel very welcome and I feel like to add my opinion in an attempt to improve this server to a state where I'd actively play on it again is totally worth the time and effort. /sarcasm

Sarcasm aside now. I for one would just love to play a firbolg, a half-giant, kenku or minotaur but I've never been blessed with an award great enough. For as long as I remain unlucky I will never be even given the chance to play one of those races. There is no application process, no guaranteed way for me to receive access to those races.
The only thing I could do for the CHANCE to play any of those races is to level up a character I do not plan to get attached to, grind them up to 26 minimum, hoard the gold value for the % bonus and then roll a character every two months.

I would much rather just write an application, have it be reviewed by DMs and then approved or denied after two months instead of this garbage process. But again, with the size of Arelith we likely won't ever see a return of applications.

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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Thu Aug 11, 2022 4:16 am

Ork wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:27 am
Hazard wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:36 am
Not defending bad behaviour is exactly why I decided to call yours out.
You need to treat people with more respect.
I don't think my comments are out of line considering they've voiced their reason for playing here is "not being told what to do". If anyone is looking for a server with unrestricted access to random/obscure/unique races, there are better servers than Arelith for that access. Amia, for one.
I can't fault players for being upset, though, when there is such strong mechanical incentive to cycle through the reward system IN ADDITION to the glamour of new awards being added.

It's not like the awards system is a "dead system" - it remains a 'shiny new thing' by it's very design. If it was something never updated, folks would never roll, right? Because you would've seen your 11th vampire and start to yawn. So what do we do? We add yuan-ti. Then rakshasas. Then Shadovar. Then Kenku.

We can't fault players, Ork, for clearly chasing the carrot that the server is designed for them to chase.

There's probably also some thinking somewhere the fact that the awards are behind a % chance system being a sort of 'loot drop' dopamine hit that might trigger some parts of the playerbase in wanting to grind for the possibility of getting a Major Reward, etc.

I think that % chance should be the next thing on the chopping block.

edit: and of course, part of the rub, is that that carrot-chasing design of the reward system has become its own thing, rather than a way of winkwinknudgenudge to the 'wandering 30 syndrome' scenario. It's terribly at odds with a "narrative-focused" server.

Part of me thinks we should do away with the award system, demote some races down to all access (planetouched, etc.), and go back to Awards being minor horizontal mechanical perks (i.e. Gift of Wealth-like things).
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Oskarr of Procampur, Ro Irokon, Nahal Azyen, Nelehein Afsana (of Impiltur), Vencenti Medici, Nizram ali Balazdam, (Roznik) Naethandreil

Eyeliner
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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Eyeliner » Thu Aug 11, 2022 4:29 am

I agree with that. You can't dangle shiny toys in front of players and expect us to do anything but clamor for them. That's basic human nature. It's not my thing but I wouldn't expect a group of humans to behave differently.

Hopefully a point based system will be more reasonable but you're still going to see players gaming the system if it involves sacrificing characters (like leveling one to 26 to delete as soon as the window opens again and repeat.)

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Algol
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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Algol » Thu Aug 11, 2022 4:35 am

Here is how I'd do rewards:

-Rewards can be traded for for a upper or a lower tier. Let's say this ratio is 5 to 1. So if you are extremely unlucky you can get a major after 25 characters. Also I'd make it such that rewards earned before the introduction of timer cannot be traded.

-Rolling characters still has the current timer.

Sytic
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2022 7:55 am

Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Sytic » Thu Aug 11, 2022 4:56 am

Am I the only one who thought that "roll-bait" characters were actually really cool? As in, as a concept. As you constantly get people leveling, content never becomes dead unless it becomes redundant to level in that area due to XP being available in another area.

I really like the suggestion of tying awards more to -recommend, as it's a log of individuals in case there's a group of people mass -recommending their friends (loggable), and bolsters those who are more accepted within the community, thus allowing (theoretically) more accepted "trust" in playing a more unique, rarer character.

This would also discourage roll-bait characters from actually being garbage-tier characters: They'd have to learn to interact more often, roleplay within their environment, not just circle-grind it up to 26 and then roll. We can lower the timer but essentially force people to have to play these characters, these CHARACTERS (characters within a story, not just pcs to circle grind to 26 so you can roll them for something shiny) to a standard where they'll actually be respected within the community. Depending on how they get involved, that can take a while, or not.

Here's my idea: Keep the timer as it is, but -recommend shortens the timer to a minimum duration, per character. Say Normal is, maybe, 1 month, or a few weeks. Minor is a week or two. Those are the minimums, and could maybe happen for the best roleplayer you've ever seen. You can even bump up the starting timers for the other rewards based on this.

Also, please tone down the flaming in this thread, it makes me sad. People just wanna play the video game!

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Marsi
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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Marsi » Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:02 am

I'm not bothered by reward grinding. If someone wants to do that, it doesn't affect me. I find reward grinders to be, at worst, dull but benign dungeon companions. Some of my favorite adventures have been with, looking back, short lived by design characters, with whom the player could take some conceptual and aesthetic risks they wouldn't otherwise with a "main". If they are staying in character they are still part of the world. I draw the line at those bad sports who hog or ninja chests.

Reward grinding is the price we pay for a system that hopefully discourages the tyranny of never-rolling self-inserts. The question should be how prevalent is this behaviour vs. the kind of play that Arelith wants, not whether it should exist at all. Arelith has experimented with some very invasive and myopic systems in the past in its quest to eradicate grinding completely, and they neither worked nor made anyone happy.

Why should the great bell of Beaulieu toll when the shadows were neither short nor long?


Evianna
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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Evianna » Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:07 am

Algol wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 4:35 am
Here is how I'd do rewards:

-Rewards can be traded for for a upper or a lower tier. Let's say this ratio is 5 to 1. So if you are extremely unlucky you can get a major after 25 characters. Also I'd make it such that rewards earned before the introduction of timer cannot be traded.

-Rolling characters still has the current timer.
100% fine with this but 25*2 for someone who got unlucky and got all normals and no greaters in worst case is not alright. That's playing 25 characters for 50 straight months if you don't take a break. That's a) almost a full time job and b) nobody wants to think that they'll never have a chance to play something on the major tier. The timer would have to be made more like 1 or 2 weeks (if it has to exist at all), and not 2 months, but other than that I'm on board.

I also really love the -recommend idea, but I am very against the reward lock as a concept in general. I agree with Marsi's post in entirety.
you may remember me from such idiot characters as:

mystery

iyelle ixit'shii - waiting for her Death to come for her in Menzoberranzan
raimie mistmantle - sold into slavery
yukana ("malyss") - in a castle with her elf in kozakura

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Flower Power
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Re: Rewards Lock

Post by Flower Power » Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:54 am

I've been here since the servers split, and I've taken maybe - three 6-month breaks from playing Arelith at least semi-regularly in that time. I play my characters for 6 to 12 months per character on average before rolling them.

I have never succeeded on a 5% roll.

I have never gotten a Major.

I have gotten a single Greater award that I can remember.

I've sat on my hands humming and hawing as everyone else got to play concepts that I wanted to try out, before watching them inevitably be either removed wholesale or else restricted to majors with a set number permitted total, a number that rarely ever fluctuates because there are people who will finally get in to hold one of the limited number of slots allowed and then clutch it to their chest covetously and never roll that precious limited-number character - even long after their character's arc ended and their story and narrative ceased to be relevant or fresh.

I've consigned myself, with the rewards lock, to never being getting a Major or having a chance to play something Neat or Flash until this pointbuy system is put into place - and even then, maybe not, with some of the suggestions that've been made to take what was intended to be an egalitarian system into a headache inducing one.

This is why people grind for rewards. I'm not above admitting I'm a skilled storyteller and competent writer, and that I can tell just as good a story and make just as compelling a character with a human as I can a half-giant, but playing that weird, unique, rare creature is fun for some people.

And if people want to tell other people they're wrong and should leave the game for wanting to have fun in a way that probably will never impact on your own gameplay or narrative arc, then maybe they should go look at Server Rule #4. Unless it's for telling people off for saying bags. Then you're always in the right.
what would fred rogers do?

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