Naming Polymorph Races

[Xerah]

I'm trying to get some ideas of how people use polymorph races to prevent metagaming due to naming. This is for yuan-ti, green hags, rakshasa, cambions, etc.

(correct me if I'm wrong)

What I usually do is make my character name be one of the polymorphed options, for example, if playing an yuan-ti, I would name my character Human McHumanson rather than Ssszzsszzth. This way, I can avoid the questions of "why are you always -disguised?" and you'll avoid someone seeing "your real name is Ssszzsszzth!" which can lead to metagaming.

This works fine.

The question is what happens when you want to be the yuan-ti. If you then make your name -disguise "Ssszzsszzth", someone breaking your disguise will see that your real name is Human McHumanson (not "this person is polymorphed!" as they are not actually polymorphed). Maybe you're not too concerned about this when you're 30 and have maxed out your bluff, but it's pretty lame to get outed at the start of a character arch because you pass by someone with 114 ranks of spot.

Normally I'm not too stressed about getting metagamed, but in these cases, it's pretty dang important to avoid this.

Does anyone do this another/better way?

Does anyone have any ideas of how this could be scripted another/better way? Maybe something around having a "locked in" name that some of the polymorphed character can keep that doesn't break disguise? I don't know.

[Thanos]

Would this idea have any merit here, where the issue might just be where a player reads this is a Polymorhped creature ?

Poly-morph to me is equal to having many different shapes.
Shape-shift / Shape-change is equal to not being in your original form.


So if there is a way in the script to add the all forms of changing shape to read the same when a disguise is broken. Something like "This is a potentially shape-shifted creature"

That way all forms of physically changing your characters shape would all read from the same code pool for

• Poly-morph spells & scrolls

• Class abilities I.E Druids and so on

• Racial Ability - Yuan-ti etc.

Then if there was time, using an undisclosed algorithm make use of Spot, Listen, Lore and some other skills that could help spot someone using a spell VS a potential Yuan-ti is stood in front of you.

[Algol]

Perhaps for Yuan TI each form could have their own real name? The character creation could go something like this:

Your character is named XYZ, is this their Yuan-ti name or human persona?

1)Human

2)Yuan-ti

Then next message could be something like:

XYZ set as your human/yuanti name, speak your human/yuanti and press next.

And perhaps Rakasha they could trigger a similar thing via a command since they can take many forms.

[Xerah]

Perhaps for Yuan TI each form could have their own real name? The character creation could go something like this:

Your character is named XYZ, is this their Yuan-ti name or human persona?

1)Human

2)Yuan-ti

Then next message could be something like:

XYZ set as your human/yuanti name, speak your human/yuanti and press next.

And perhaps Rakasha they could trigger a similar thing via a command since they can take many forms.

This is exactly what I was getting at. And it forces an automatic swap when you polymorph. (you'd need another one for Snake though).

Not sure how well that would work for the ones that can change into a bunch of different ones, but it would solve the yuan-ti/green hag issue. I was thinking something like the vigilante identities or something.

[xf1313]

Just like if I take wild shape, i’d prefer to see bear/wolf on top of my head.

Thou in that case even if they see my real name, (as a Druid the real name means very little) most played along as if I am an animal. I can imagine things gets more difficult with yuan-ti or Hag, they are evil races, higher chances for some individuals to scream out and try to start ‘a monster among us’.

Currently a more ‘normal’ character name is a rather nice suggestion

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Just like if I take wild shape, i’d prefer to see bear/wolf on top of my head.

Thou in that case even if they see my real name, (as a Druid the real name means very little) most played along as if I am an animal. I can imagine things gets more difficult with yuan-ti or Hag, they are evil races, higher chances for some individuals to scream out and try to start ‘a monster among us’.

Currently a more ‘normal’ character name is a rather nice suggestion

Oh that would be cool if wildshape just put the animal name over their head.

[cantalyssa]

Biggest problem with shapeshifter races is simply put, the metagame aspect. As it is now, you basically get one big 'reveal' and then you're blacklisted throughout every settlement etc. from that point on as a 'known' evil creature even though there's really no resemblance past the ooc notification of "This character is XYZ!".

It's really weird to me that someone can 'spot' a shapeshifted creatures 'true' identity like that. Sure, maybe they would know your shapeshifted form isn't your true form, but to be able to know exactly who it is?

But in the end, if you're caught while shapeshifting even the proposed system above doesn't exactly fix the issue of disguise.. As your corpse will reveal who you were anyways and then you're back to the problem I say above. Corpses of adventurers at the level of where PvP normally happens would realistically be pretty mangled an nearly unidentified and in my opinion tell whatever race it belonged to, and not the name.

[Sandrow]

Or give us a command such as -listdisg to save, manage and quick disguise in a set of disguises.
I don't have enough quick slot to save my disguises!

[Xerah]

Two options for mechanical changes that might allow a bit less hiding who you are:

1. You assign an official hag/rak/etc name in the start area so it can't be changed after the fact (and doesn't show as disguise). This will automatically change into this name if you change the form. You can do this for snake, granny, etc. forms.
2. You name your character their "human" name. When you change into a hag, you then do a -disguise "Granny Hag" When you examine the hag through a disguise, It says that: "this is a character who can polymorph so you can't tell exactly who their other forms are!"

It's really roleplaying restrictive that your hag, named Jenny McHuman, will show as "you know this is Jenny HcHuman" when they are disguised in hag form.

[Aeribelle]

The issue I see here is your saying "why are you disguised"..... A Hag polymorphing into a human IS disguised. If they break your disguise, they do see that something is off, be it a break in the glamours, an odd behavior, etc. They won't see that "you are a hag", they will just see that you are disguised. So eliminating that is basically removing any sort of counter-play. You are disguising, albeit more effectively then normal. So it can be broken.

Unfortunately this can lead to metagaming, but removing the actual mechanic doesn't seem like the way to stop that.

[Xerah]

I don't consider that an issue. Allow the player to roleplay this out not the spot score. This is far less important than someone's base level disguise.

Unfortunately, people who see disguise people will even inadvertently meta them. If you see someone's yuan-ti name, even if you don't have any reason to think they are a yuan-ti, you're going to know they are and it will creep into your game play. There was a character who was always disguised and I pretty much assumed it was a yuan-ti (later confirmed); not for any malice reason (nor was this person at risk at being found out), but this can happen.

My discovering another character is a hag/yuan-ti/rak/etc is hardly ever necessary, but given how character destroying this could be, it far more important than normal and additional consideration around meta should be taken into account. The secondary hag form is also completely unusable so much so that you might as well show up as in hag form.

[Cowbot]

I like the ideas and such in this thread, but I'm just going to comment on the original question.

If your character is not concealing their identity by pretending to be someone else, do not use Disguise.

- https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Rules#Disguises

The rules are absolutely clear here. Disguises are to be used for when you are pretending to be someone else. They are explicitly for aliases.

Likewise, metagaming is against the rules.

I will never purposefully put myself in a position where I am breaking a rule, even if doing so may prevent other people from breaking a rule.

Therefore, I use the true name of my polymorphed character as their name on character creation, and I use disguise when pretending to be someone else. To do anything else is a rule break.


I am extremely sympathetic to people metagaming you because you're disguised. The " " by your name puts everyone on edge, even people who are really good about not metagaming. I think the team should seriously consider alternatives.

Edit:

I will say that to avoid being metagamed, I do not bank transfer and I own a quarter with a sign inside the quarter. Your house sign is confirmed IG information, so they can get your real name by reading your sign.

Don't own a shop.

[Eyeliner]

It's a tough question because if you are a hag, yuan ti, rakshasa etc. on the surface you are likely spending 99% of your time in human form. That identity may be more developed than your monstrous alternate which very few may ever see. I'd bet some yuan ti have been played who never ended up showed their lizard side to anyone-- because how can you, if word gets out that could be the end of the character.

If their cover is that deep I would say it goes beyond the disguise system (I mean, they're not using makeup, they're physically becoming a human) and that may earn an alias without the quotation marks.

Being able to name the two forms and shift between them would be ideal for maintain dual long term identities. Not to mention letting them actually level up as their bluff scores aren't going to be adequate until epic levels.

[Cowbot]

You are obligated to tell someone your real name so the potential to be revealed is there.

Characters are not allowed to hide behind Disguise to conceal their true name forever. You must allow some people to know their name so that the potential of it being exposed is an option for opposing characters.

[MissEvelyn]

You are obligated to tell someone your real name so the potential to be revealed is there.

Characters are not allowed to hide behind Disguise to conceal their true name forever. You must allow some people to know their name so that the potential of it being exposed is an option for opposing characters.

Are we really expecting Yuan-ti - monstrous infiltrators of civilized societies - to reveal their real name to other non-Yuan-ti? Because that's an awful ruling, if so.

[Cowbot]

I've been assuming the answer is that the name must be revealed in such a manner that getting caught is a plausible risk.

To do otherwise is the RP equivalent of one-liner gank squads in PvP.

Remember that while infiltration takes a ton of effort to set up and is central to the character, the purpose of the infiltration is very often the destruction or co-opting of a character group that likewise required a great deal of effort to create.

Making it too easy to destroy will make people less willing to create, and then we'll be in a bad spot.

[Xerah]

It’s really completely and totally unreasonable to expect that.

I’ve done the same thing with my previous yuan-ti and played for months.

It’s not the same as rule breaking pvp, give me a break.

Please stop derailing this thread. If you want to discuss the rules, then go make a new post.

[Cowbot]

I think the rules are relevant to the discussion on what should be done when polymorphed races are created and when they are using disguise, and adjustments to the rules are relevant to what can/should be done about the situation.

Many of the suggestions are asking for the rules to be changed. Two examples include allowing a character to have two real names, or to allow yuan-ti and other deep-cover agents to never reveal their name. Isn't mentioning what the rules currently are important to that discussion?

Perhaps my understanding of the spirit of the rule is wrong, I'm open to that.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

I have never seen the rules enforced how you think they should be enforced.

[Xerah]

Rule enforcement (especially lawyering) is not your role nor should you be on the forums calling people cheaters as you've done in this thread. If you want to report me to the DMs for having done so, then you need to message all the DMs in a private message. This is the second time I've had to tell people to stop calling others cheaters in the past few days and I would have removed the post had I not been personally involved.

Furthermore, a CE human could do the exact same thing and they wouldn't need to worry about quotes on their name.

[BattleDrake]

Iunno, I don't think this is really that big of an issue as you seem to make it out to be.

I've been playing a Rakshasa for six months now or so, and I've never had anyone out me by breaking my disguise. I've been outed in other ways, but never that.

During leveling, nobody made any comments about my character's name when their disguise was broken constantly. Actually, one tell I got, and it was from a player that assumed I was just hiding my name for unknown reasons and I should ask a dm for a name change xD

Now with full skill, it rarely happens (I think a total of 5 times now), and my character is still fine and dandy.

I mean, if you're running about as tons of different disguise names in a short period of time with a crappy disguise skill, that's a fault on you I suppose. Otherwise, play it smart. And if it does happen with a high skill, and that one off chance, great! You should have the opportunity to be outed every once in awhile. Your character shouldn't be immune to it. I shouldn't be immune to it. If someone invested heavily in spot and can break my disguise and spends enough time investigating and learns the truth, great. They've investigated enough to learn my character's true name, good on them. Let's not start talking about ways to make this one-sided rp where your infiltrator gets the luxury of complete immunity.

[Xerah]

I point back to the evil human infiltrator who has “complete immunity”.

You were lucky.

[BattleDrake]

Or you're making it a bigger deal than it is

Remember, that breaking a disguise doesn't tell anyone you're a shapeshifter. It just shows that you're disguising. What they infer from this is on them.

And I've seen you advocate for revealing the character is polymorphed, which would undoubtedly ruin the rp for every shifting race.

It's fine the way it is.

[Eyeliner]

I feel like whatever is done it's preferable that a yuan ti or hag is able to conceal their true identity over the long term. It's just a better story if they can get away with it, honestly. Getting randomly busted by a maxed out spotter checking everyone who walks into a town isn't exactly an interesting end (and it's going to be an end if they're a monster).

Not saying they should be 100% immune but we should err on them having enough advantage to pull it off almost all of the time so when it finally happens (or they choose to reveal) it actually means something.

[xanrael]

On the digression:
As a third party I didn't get the sense that anyone was seeking for someone else to get banned or thought they were being malicious. Honestly I'm kind of glad it was said (even though I completely disagree with Cowbot's take) because it might cause a DM to come by and clarify things.

In general (and I'm not talking about anyone here), as long as the discussion doesn't grow overly heated I'd rather things have a back and forth on the forums and perhaps have a resolution that can be referenced later when a DM pops by than one opinion to stay silent and be repeated in a closed group creating potential issues down the road.

On the OP:
I understand the pros of having multiple static names for certain shapechangers, I've played them myself and was able to make it work without that but it would have enhanced things had it been present. That said I can also understand people wanting to identify a shapechanged target as there would still be potential tells. As an aside I still find it odd that Listen cannot also be used to break disguise and cover identifying them by vocal/auditory cues etc.