Discussion: Metagaming and IC/OOC confusion

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I commend my fellow hardcorians for sticking to their guns, I too would prefer a world where a conversation leading to a potential scry attempt is not simply brushed away because someone checked the player list. That being said, time is precious, and it does take time. So, usually, I just shrug it off as easily as I shrug off a group that wants to run through a dungeon instead of roleplay through it and so on. If these were the biggest issues on Arelith, Arelith would be a pretty groovy place.

[Hazard]

I commend my fellow hardcorians for sticking to their guns, I too would prefer a world where a conversation leading to a potential scry attempt is not simply brushed away because someone checked the player list. That being said, time is precious, and it does take time. So, usually, I just shrug it off as easily as I shrug off a group that wants to run through a dungeon instead of roleplay through it and so on. If these were the biggest issues on Arelith, Arelith would be a pretty groovy place.

Hardcorians
Sorry, nothing to add. I just like that haha.

[TurningLeaf]

(In terms of yoink, I do recall a time when I was, player side, escorting a prisoner across a server transtion to a secure location. No sooner had they crossed the transtion, when someone imediatly -yoinked them. That to me is an example of poor metagaming, though it comes up less than scry.)

Just saying, the sender might have had a totally innocent/acceptable reason to yoink like rounding out their dungeon party. Like, I've been yoinked before right after logging in for that reason.

But by the way the display of login notifications are turning into a server side toggle in an upcoming patch, which i think is exciting. That might have changed the result in your situation.

[VibeKings]

"Leylines" or "the ley" aren't something that exist in the Forgotten Realms setting.

The name comes from an early 20th century European belief (essentially, a proto conspiracy theory) that historic landmarks had lines going through them that ancient people used to guide themselves. The use of the word on the server that has absolutely nothing to do with this and is instead something vague about magical power in certain locations has been popularised by genre fantasy in the past 20-odd years, especially by things like WoW.

You can go and look for the word in the setting's sourcebooks and you won't find anything. Even the FRwiki is bare of references to either.

It's disappointing to see someone from the admin team say that this misconception is OK -- I realise it's gone on for so many years now that it's probably impossible to stop, but I think the position creates a responsibility to try regardless.

[Xerah]

"Leylines" or "the ley" aren't something that exist in the Forgotten Realms setting.

The name comes from an early 20th century European belief (essentially, a proto conspiracy theory) that historic landmarks had lines going through them that ancient people used to guide themselves. The use of the word on the server that has absolutely nothing to do with this and is instead something vague about magical power in certain locations has been popularised by genre fantasy in the past 20-odd years, especially by things like WoW.

You can go and look for the word in the setting's sourcebooks and you won't find anything. Even the FRwiki is bare of references to either.

It's disappointing to see someone from the admin team say that this misconception is OK -- I realise it's gone on for so many years now that it's probably impossible to stop, but I think the position creates a responsibility to try regardless.

That's not true at all. They explicitly mention ley lines in forgotten realms sources books, well, at least 1.

[Flower Power]

The "real world" concept of ley lines are pseudoarchaeological bullshit that runs tangential to ancient aliens conspiracy theories, it's true, and I hate that we use the expression because of it.

Ley lines as a FR concept are only very briefly referenced in a handful of places, largely relating to a handful of PrCs. They have absolutely nothing to do with boundaries or teleportation, but are linked to geomancy of all things.

[MissEvelyn]

I agree that it's odd that we use the term "ley" or "leylines" at all. It would be far more accurate to say the Weave - but using the Weave still doesn't let you see who's online, because that is entirely an OOC mechanic.

This thread is a good place to remind everyone that you ~can~ hide your presence from the Arelith Portal player list.

Use -dissaportal to hide your presence from the portal list.

No need to explain or rationalize why you'd want to do that. It's fully and completely within your right, so use the implemented mechanic as you see fit

[VibeKings]

That's not true at all. They explicitly mention ley lines in forgotten realms sources books, well, at least 1.

Sorry, you were right. The two(!) mentions of it that I could find after a second round of searching are in Champions of Ruin (and Underdark, for the same spell) where it is used to describe a part of a spell called Node Genesis, and seems to be more descriptive than literal -- unless you want to start bringing up telluric currents IC as well, I suppose. The second is for, like Flower Power says, a prestige class called, wait for it... Geomancer, a class that requires 2nd level arcane and divine casting, where it is an explicit class feature they receive. It grants the ability "to create magical connections with a specific type of terrain," which increases the Geomancer's effective caster level when they are located in that particular type of terrain.

So I was wrong, and it in fact does exist. Instead, we've collectively (some of us, anyway) been totally misusing a a term reserved for a really obscure form of magic practiced by a really obscure discipline.

However, this detail aside, I don't feel as though this changes a great deal about my point.

[Hazard]

I can't sense this thread on the ley anymore.

[MissEvelyn]

The ley is a lie. There is no ley.

[Kuma]

Please ignore the shiny colour next to my name, this is not a dev or admin take, but it is one that I support:

VibeKings and Flower Power are correct.

"The ley" and ley-lines are such an insignificant and minor part of D&D and FR in specific as to quite simply be dismissed as irrelevant.

While one could imagine that their use to refer to the Arelith portal network could be easy, it is quite obvious that it is being used as a lazy shorthand for "is or is not online" - and I'm willing to bet a number of characters are doing this without even having any relevant epic spells that allow this sort of pseudo-exploit, not that that would make it any more legitimate.

There's a difference between the "ok metagaming" enabled by rulings of old - "let's meet in the cordor outskirts and do kobolds", "we're having a big dwarf meeting soon if you want in"...

... and basically any other use of this. "I cannot sense them on the ley" is rarely if ever used well. I've witnessed it so many times and it's just lazy roleplay, borderline metagaming, and thoroughly against the setting.

Stop.

If you have to bump into the roadblock of 'so and so isn't online', do what the rest of us did for decades - work around it. Handwave it. "I'll speak to her at my earliest convenience," "my scrying spell failed, m'lord," "it seems my summons aren't working".

Call me paranoid but I wonder if this aversion to just admitting that your character's spells are failing (because these people aren't online) is partially rooted in a failure to admit failure. That your character might look bad, IG, if their magic doesn't work (if you're even pretending to use magic and not just checking the playerlist). Perhaps this is my tinfoil hat speaking, though.

Be more creative and more willing to handwave obvious OOC considerations like people just not being online or available 24/7. This isn't difficult.


tl;dr "the ley" isn't real, you're metagaming

[Party in the forest at midnight]

I wouldn't go that far either. When I learned it, it was an IC way to explain that there were different servers and magic doesn't always work across these mysterious boundaries. I've seen faerzress blamed for it too. I've also seen faerzress blamed for lag. Not all of the RP surrounding it has been "so and so is online", it's a way to try and explain very tangible game mechanics that impact casters. But I also don't think it's a hugely critical thing for RP either. I've got no problem changing what I'm saying, it doesn't really impact my research caster characters' RP.

Even with the declaration I think it won't change things as much as you think. Because at some level we're still going to know we have to go to the underdark server if we want to scry a drow, that's still going to happen. The RP will probably shift to "This doesn't work over huge distances, we need to get closer to where they are" for scrying, or "they're too far away, tell them to get closer" for summoning.

[xanrael]

Would the following be reasonable?

Diviner is chilling in the Hub and an ally wants him to Scry on Captain Yarrbeard the pirate.

Diviner tries directly from the Hub and comes up negative (getting a message they're not on the server).

Diviner: "My magic didn't seem work, perhaps we should try near a port leading to the surface waters like the Treadstone as they may be out to sea."

So they server transition to there and try again. This time it is successful.

[Kessarin]

tl;dr "the ley" isn't real, you're metagaming

No.

A quick forum search reveals that the usage of "ley" dates all the way back to 2014. That's eight years of players using it, and to insinuate that anyone using that term is metagaming is beyond the pale. Many new players, on new PCs, have been taught this verbiage IC, and the people looking down their noses at that usage need to take a step back and make that realization.

While I understand and agree that checking the playerlist should not happen, my point here is about the terminology itself. It exists, it has existed for almost a decade, and if the Powers That Be want it to stop, then that's fine and good - no objection in the slightest. But this blanket condemnation of anyone who uses it after being taught it IC needs to stop, full stop.

[Flower Power]

People also use 'bags' to refer to money.

Just because something happens commonly doesn't make it good.

[Xerah]

Seriously? Bags is now a problem? Do we really need to go around policing what roleplaying words are allowed and not allowed aside from harmful, sexual, etc. words.

You can use leylines all you want. You can't use it when looking at the playerlist, saying they are not on the ley, and not actually scry/yoinking. That's what the rule clarification says. It does not say you can't ever use it.

[Kessarin]

People also use 'bags' to refer to money.

Just because something happens commonly doesn't make it good.

Much like belittling players who use the terms taught to them IC.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Seriously? Bags is now a problem? Do we really need to go around policing what roleplaying words are allowed and not allowed aside from harmful, sexual, etc. words.

You can use leylines all you want. You can't use it when looking at the playerlist, saying they are not on the ley, and not actually scry/yoinking. That's what the rule clarification says. It does not say you can't ever use it.

tl;dr "the ley" isn't real, you're metagaming

No.

A quick forum search reveals that the usage of "ley" dates all the way back to 2014. That's eight years of players using it, and to insinuate that anyone using that term is metagaming is beyond the pale. Many new players, on new PCs, have been taught this verbiage IC, and the people looking down their noses at that usage need to take a step back and make that realization.

While I understand and agree that checking the playerlist should not happen, my point here is about the terminology itself. It exists, it has existed for almost a decade, and if the Powers That Be want it to stop, then that's fine and good - no objection in the slightest. But this blanket condemnation of anyone who uses it after being taught it IC needs to stop, full stop.

Look, this is the internet, and I personally feel ya'll (royal, Floridian ya'all, directed at anyone who's getting upset at the notion that someone else is telling them what they shouldn't say IC) need to stop getting caught up in your feelings when people say you can't or shouldn't do something. It's not America, they aren't trying to violate your civil rights (you have none, it's the internet), they're just trying to highlight something that makes sense and you're getting flustered about it and not hearing the message.

No one bringing this up cares how long you've been talking about the ley line. People have been saying things like "death is meaningless" and "RP begins at 30" for 8 years now, too. That doesn't make it a good statement to echo and finding the whole two people who use it in the correct context doesn't excuse all the problems the statement creates for the narrative on an OOC level.

Given the fact that the expression is both
1: Horrendously taken out of context and incorrectly referenced.
2: Utilized to blatantly talk about OOC information and influence actions IC on-server

TL;DR
Digging your heels in and arguing about this is like looking at the DM and screaming 'yes, that's what my character would do' when he asks you if you're sure while the whole party's life is at stake. You can do it, but no one is going to think highly of you for sticking to your guns, they're just going to breathe a sigh of resignation.

[Hazard]

Seriously? Bags is now a problem? Do we really need to go around policing what roleplaying words are allowed and not allowed aside from harmful, sexual, etc. words.

You can use leylines all you want. You can't use it when looking at the playerlist, saying they are not on the ley, and not actually scry/yoinking. That's what the rule clarification says. It does not say you can't ever use it.

Bags, tridays and TRICYCLES LOL.

Yes. We need to police it, with brutality. I want to see batons. I want to see tear gas. I want to see HOUNDS!

[Xerah]

Look, this is the internet, and I personally feel ya'll (royal, Floridian ya'all, directed at anyone who's getting upset at the notion that someone else is telling them what they shouldn't say IC) need to stop getting caught up in your feelings when people say you can't or shouldn't do something. It's not America, they aren't trying to violate your civil rights (you have none, it's the internet), they're just trying to highlight something that makes sense and you're getting flustered about it and not hearing the message.

No one bringing this up cares how long you've been talking about the ley line. People have been saying things like "death is meaningless" and "RP begins at 30" for 8 years now, too. That doesn't make it a good statement to echo and finding the whole two people who use it in the correct context doesn't excuse all the problems the statement creates for the narrative on an OOC level.

Given the fact that the expression is both
1: Horrendously taken out of context and incorrectly referenced.
2: Utilized to blatantly talk about OOC information and influence actions IC on-server

Digging your heels in and arguing about this is like looking at the DM and screaming 'yes, that's what my character would do' when he asks you if you're sure while the whole party's life is at stake. You can do it, but no one is going to think highly of you for sticking to your guns, they're just going to breathe a sigh of resignation.

This is a whole bunch of nonsense. You might feel it is horrendously taken out of context but other might be fine with it. Same with dealing with the OOC nature of things on the server, some like to explain it with something that might make sense to them.

- Sensing someone on the ley. Using the player-list to 'sense' if someone is a certain area or call it "on the same ley" is not a valid method of RP, especially when this is to the detriment of the other PCs involved. We want to make it clear that even if you are an Epic Diviner of demigodly potential, you are not able to discern whether or not someone is in a specific place or area by simply referring to the player list. We will also remind that scrying someone that immediately logs in is considered in exceptional bad taste.

This is the ruling. That's the only thing to discuss.

If someone saying leyline gets your knickers in a knot so much that you need to be on here loudly judging everyone for it, then maybe put that energy into something more useful. People use words and phrases in RP that I find distasteful all the time but it's not something that I need to go out of my way to say you're doing it wrong.

Lets stop with the cheater comments and the doing it wrong comments. That's objectively not being a good community member and goes against Rule 4 ("Unwarranted rudeness").