Corrupted Weapon

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TurningLeaf
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Corrupted Weapon

Post by TurningLeaf » Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:32 pm

Have been playing a BG lately and I noticed that I don't like the Corrupt Weapon calculation. Notably it is worse than Greater Magic Weapon and really limits the BG's build options to get to +5. Using paladins as an example for comparison, reaching +5 requires 20 class levels for the BG while paladins get +5 at 17 class levels. For the BG reaching 20 class levels means zero non-BG class levels can be taken in epics. Meanwhile paladins capstone at 26 which seems well-positioned for them to be able to do a skill dump in epics. It's great that the BG can eventually get to +6 Corrupt Weapon at level 20 but it's strange that this comes at exactly the same time as one gets access to +5. And, this could only be at character level 30 meanwhile the paladin had +5 since pre or early epics.

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Re: Corrupted Weapon

Post by Xerah » Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:41 pm

You need 26 level of paladin to get a +5 weapon, not 17
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Re: Corrupted Weapon

Post by Good Character » Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:14 pm

Corrupt Weapon in its current state is a fantastic weapon.

1. Requires no spell slots.
2. Lasts much longer
3. 2d6 vs. good is far more better than 2d6 vs. undead in PvP.
4. Maxed out at +6 vs Bless Weapon's +5 cap.

Blackguard is currently in a healthy place.

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Re: Corrupted Weapon

Post by Tarkus the dog » Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:30 pm

So when the BG update rolled around I scoffed thinking nobody in their right mind would go 20 BG.

Well turns out that's how you build BG now -- by going 20 BG. Sure that might sound limiting but name me one paladin build that isn't ( and funnily enough BG has way, way more build options than paladin ).

Anyway here's a short summary of it: it's actually in an alright spot. 17 BG works because divine synergy and +4 weapon, and 20 BG gives you with a +6 weapon and an amazing summon. Having the option for blackguards to get a +5 weapon per say and to dip in the epics would be too much. And I understand the need to compare them to the paladin class but on Arelith they have very few things in common in fact ( and paladin is pretty powerful right now so trying to scale one another also isn't the best way to show why BG might deserve some changes ).

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Re: Corrupted Weapon

Post by Scylon » Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:33 pm

Actually,

I might jump to the OP defense. It's not about the final product, which is awesome, it about the scaling. I think the weapon should hit +3 at level 11 and +4 at level 16. This would pull it in line with scaling of other weapons.

THAT SAID!

I understand the thinking +4 might be better suited to 17

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Re: Corrupted Weapon

Post by TurningLeaf » Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:38 am

I mean you're potentially giving up 2 AC and +2 on spell saves, who else can't take a level of anything else in epic to get to +5?

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Re: Corrupted Weapon

Post by Ork » Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:22 am

I don't really understand what you're arguing for here. 20 Blackguard is as good as it gets. It's up there now thanks to this mechanic.

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Re: Corrupted Weapon

Post by TurningLeaf » Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:28 am

Ork wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:22 am
I don't really understand what you're arguing for here. 20 Blackguard is as good as it gets. It's up there now thanks to this mechanic.
I don't really understand why it's as good as it gets, I guess. Very little specificity in these replies. Like, people are saying it's great but I question whether the additional +1 enhancement is supposed to be a great tradeoff for the loss of 2 AC and (possibly) 2 to saves, answer- it's great. Beyond that when one looks at the scaling, because BG is a prestige class that can't be taken until level 7 at the earliest, it's likely you will have better weapon options than your CW until deep into epics and possibly all the way up until level 30.

Earliest Possible CW
Level 12 +1
Level 14 +2
Level 20 still +2 (Since can only take 10 pre epic)
Level 22 +3
Level 26 +4

At what point is one using logically using CW in this progression? Level 26 maybe, at the earliest, since by level 22 a character can easily have a better weapon enhancing to +3. It's very possible CW would not be used until character level 30.

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Re: Corrupted Weapon

Post by Algol » Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:33 am

TurningLeaf wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:38 am
I mean you're potentially giving up 2 AC and +2 on spell saves, who else can't take a level of anything else in epic to get to +5?
Spellswords need 30 levels for +5

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Re: Corrupted Weapon

Post by xanrael » Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:42 am

TurningLeaf wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:28 am
Ork wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:22 am
I don't really understand what you're arguing for here. 20 Blackguard is as good as it gets. It's up there now thanks to this mechanic.
I don't really understand why it's as good as it gets, I guess. Very little specificity in these replies. Like, people are saying it's great but I question whether the additional +1 enhancement is supposed to be a great tradeoff for the loss of 2 AC and (possibly) 2 to saves, answer- it's great. Beyond that when one looks at the scaling, because BG is a prestige class that can't be taken until level 7 at the earliest, it's likely you will have better weapon options than your CW until deep into epics and possibly all the way up until level 30.

Earliest Possible CW
Level 12 +1
Level 14 +2
Level 20 still +2 (Since can only take 10 pre epic)
Level 22 +3
Level 26 +4

At what point is one using logically using CW in this progression? Level 26 maybe, at the earliest, since by level 22 a character can easily have a better weapon enhancing to +3. It's very possible CW would not be used until character level 30.
It has some useful edge cases I like to take advantage of for heavy blackguard:
1. Greensteel where you get early access to Keen without losing as much damage.
2. Use a weapon type that lets you add the enhancement bonus to damage too, as a poor example the Wakizashi even with the enhancement bonus not adding to attack you're still looking at more damage due to the extra damage stacking.

That's not to say paladin might not have it better, but it's still useful.

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Re: Corrupted Weapon

Post by MRFTW » Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:52 am

Ork wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:22 am
I don't really understand what you're arguing for here. 20 Blackguard is as good as it gets. It's up there now thanks to this mechanic.
Totally agree - finally something worth giving up an epic tumble dump for. A shame it only applies to the main hand, when spellswords get it to both, but you can't have it all, I guess.

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Re: Corrupted Weapon

Post by TurningLeaf » Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:58 pm

MRFTW wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:52 am
Ork wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:22 am
I don't really understand what you're arguing for here. 20 Blackguard is as good as it gets. It's up there now thanks to this mechanic.
Totally agree - finally something worth giving up an epic tumble dump for. A shame it only applies to the main hand, when spellswords get it to both, but you can't have it all, I guess.
But why is it worth giving up an epic tumble/spellcraft dump? Nobody can seem to explain this.

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Re: Corrupted Weapon

Post by Tarkus the dog » Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:43 pm

TurningLeaf wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:58 pm
MRFTW wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:52 am
Ork wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:22 am
I don't really understand what you're arguing for here. 20 Blackguard is as good as it gets. It's up there now thanks to this mechanic.
Totally agree - finally something worth giving up an epic tumble dump for. A shame it only applies to the main hand, when spellswords get it to both, but you can't have it all, I guess.
But why is it worth giving up an epic tumble/spellcraft dump? Nobody can seem to explain this.
Okay that's fair, I'll try to summarize:

1. Summon scaling, every epic BG levels beefs up your summon.
2. Extra smiting at BG 18, its a pretty strong feat.
3. the +6 EB obviously, but more importantly the fact that you pierce premonition. Most classes pierce premonition/stoneskin these days and when playing a class that doesn't the difference is kinda visible both in PvE and PvP.
4. The 2 AB is huge on it's own, NWN is a game of rolls and you want to squeeze out every point that you can.

But most importantly in my opinion:

5. BGs already have very good AC. It's better to trade off some of that defense for offense and that's exactly what 20 BG gives you. BGs play with the summon and you're sitting at a comfortable amount of AC as it is. In PvP situations it's a lose-lose scenario for the enemy: focus the summon and the BG can really clamp on you or heal the summon while you're fighting it, focus the BG and the BG can kite/turtle up while the summon unleashes hell.

As for the numbers scaling on the weapon ehhh it could probably be shifted around but most people go off the idea that the game begins at 30 so not many care for the pre-30 experience ( which is an issue in my opinion, anyone trying to solo or even duo a warlock from scratch won't have a great time ).

I hope this answers your question.

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Re: Corrupted Weapon

Post by MRFTW » Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:48 pm

Tarkus has summed it up well - high AB indirectly translates to AC via expertise and it's improved form, too.

I rarely use anything besides imp. Exp or power attack on my BG, depending if I'm frontline or side attacking.

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Re: Corrupted Weapon

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:55 pm

Its fine. It's basically a trade of 2 ac to get 2 more ab (and +6 DR pen is very nice).
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Re: Corrupted Weapon

Post by Scurvy Cur » Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:16 pm

Literally the only thing I think blackguard is missing is a class option to trade the summon in for an improved aura.

Anyhow, Tarkus is right. The quick summary here is:

The +2 AB you get at BG 20 pushes you from ~48 AB on a human to ~50 AB on a human. Right now, this is kind of the point at which melee builds start feeling like they're actually doing their job. I don't really like many of the BG builds that stop shy of 20 for this reason.

Losing the AC hurts, but your AC is almost fine, and the summon is strong enough to take a lot of pressure off.


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Re: Corrupted Weapon

Post by TurningLeaf » Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:23 pm

Scurvy Cur wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:16 pm
Literally the only thing I think blackguard is missing is a class option to trade the summon in for an improved aura.

Anyhow, Tarkus is right. The quick summary here is:

The +2 AB you get at BG 20 pushes you from ~48 AB on a human to ~50 AB on a human. Right now, this is kind of the point at which melee builds start feeling like they're actually doing their job. I don't really like many of the BG builds that stop shy of 20 for this reason.

Losing the AC hurts, but your AC is almost fine, and the summon is strong enough to take a lot of pressure off.

I have seen multiple people call it +2 but it's a semantic blur. Every dedicated melee I can think of gets access to +5. So what you're getting is +1 AB/dmg compared to other dedicated melee at highest level, the trade off is the ability to dump in epics which no other dedicated melee has to contend with. Nobody seems to think going from +5 to +6 in exchange is a great trade for that, so the summon keeps getting mentioned as like, what the BG gets as compensation for this bad trade. But as you say it takes about 50 AB to matter as a melee, these summons cap out at maybe 40 AB fully buffed with epic fiendish servant taken and they are all melee.

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Re: Corrupted Weapon

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:42 pm

But if the class overall is balanced because of other things it gets then the weapon spell really doesnt have to scale the same as other weapons. I think it's cool and unique and unlike other weapon spells in the game, in that it skips above +5 but to get the +6 you drop 2 ac. If we only compare weapon spells in vacuum then yes, it is 1 ab higher and 2 ac lower than bless/curse/thirst weapons, but then you also get a pretty good summon so it balances out fine. It also synergies well with class combinations who dont even have tumble in the build (like fighter/cav/20bg) and then there's no loss of ac at all. I personally look at the BG's stats (ac and ab in particular), I compare them to a cookie cutter vengeance paladin, I also take into account an epic fiend summon, and I think it's pretty balanced. The bg has about 2-3 lower ac and 2 lower ab, and doesnt have a spellbook with dispels on hit, but has an epic summon instead. As others have mentioned, it would be pretty cool bg could select another 'thematic' feat instead of epic fiend, a feat that will disable summoning altogether maybe, but offer something else that pushes the BG closer to paladin stats. That could be interesting.
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I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Corrupted Weapon

Post by TurningLeaf » Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:23 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:42 pm
But if the class overall is balanced because of other things it gets then the weapon spell really doesnt have to scale the same as other weapons. I think it's cool and unique and unlike other weapon spells in the game, in that it skips above +5 but to get the +6 you drop 2 ac. If we only compare weapon spells in vacuum then yes, it is 1 ab higher and 2 ac lower than bless/curse/thirst weapons, but then you also get a pretty good summon so it balances out fine. It also synergies well with class combinations who dont even have tumble in the build (like fighter/cav/20bg) and then there's no loss of ac at all. I personally look at the BG's stats (ac and ab in particular), I compare them to a cookie cutter vengeance paladin, I also take into account an epic fiend summon, and I think it's pretty balanced. The bg has about 2-3 lower ac and 2 lower ab, and doesnt have a spellbook with dispels on hit, but has an epic summon instead. As others have mentioned, it would be pretty cool bg could select another 'thematic' feat instead of epic fiend, a feat that will disable summoning altogether maybe, but offer something else that pushes the BG closer to paladin stats. That could be interesting.
The summon is good for PvE only though. Balancing around PvP is something of a rabbit hole, and bless the devs for endeavoring to do it at all. Still it just seems odd that BG is essentially singled out as the one melee class that can't multiclass in epics or they can't get to +5 on their own. +5 should be parsed out from +6 so people who think that the extra +1 is worth the loss of the 2 AC and/or saves is worth it, can build that way. And if you wanted to stop at +5 for a tumble dip you should be able to do that too like every other melee.

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Re: Corrupted Weapon

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:47 pm

But bg who takes tumble ends up on +4 weapon for balance reasons. It doesnt need a buff. It doesnt need a buff of 1 ab. You choose between +4 and 2 more ac, and +6 and 2 less ac. If it was always +5 and still keeping tumble then 1) it's an unnecessary buff to a balanced class, and 2) it actually reduces build diversity. And summons arent only good for pve, they have value in pvp as well.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Corrupted Weapon

Post by TurningLeaf » Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:56 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:47 pm
But bg who takes tumble ends up on +4 weapon for balance reasons. It doesnt need a buff. It doesnt need a buff of 1 ab. You choose between +4 and 2 more ac, and +6 and 2 less ac. If it was always +5 and still keeping tumble then 1) it's an unnecessary buff to a balanced class, and 2) it actually reduces build diversity. And summons arent only good for pve, they have value in pvp as well.
So, honestly asking. Was there prior discussion around the topic and devs stated it's for balance reasons? Or you assume that's the case because it was implemented?

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Re: Corrupted Weapon

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:31 pm

As I said, I compare the numbers and also take into account an epic summon, and I think that if bg was able to take +5 and keep late tumble it would be slightly overtuned. I may or may not have discussed it with a dev or several, I dont recall, but you can kind of tell from the fact it jumps from +4 to +6 exactly on lvl 20 (resulting in exactly 2 for 2 trade) that it seems quite intentional for that reason.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Corrupted Weapon

Post by Xerah » Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:44 pm

Most of these things are discussed in detail and theorycrafted for what builds these changes will create, so it is almost always done by intent. There's a reason why Kenji posts build for new stuff when he releases a large new content thing.
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Re: Corrupted Weapon

Post by Arienette » Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:00 am

Summons aren’t useless in PvP but they aren’t VERY useful.

Say a BG is facing off against a Paladin. I want to say the Verdant Prince has 39 AB after you hit it with your bulls ability, and Yugo a commander has 41. This is assuming you summon them with an item equipped that gives SF: Conjuration.

Paladins have 60+ AC so you can’t expect your buddy to do much there.

As the BGs opponent AC goes down, the summons usefulness goes up. A low AC hand build needs to take the summon down first if they are smart, and that’s the best case scenario for the BG getting some use out of the summon. That or the opponent wasting a round or two dismissing it.

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Re: Corrupted Weapon

Post by Good Character » Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:12 pm

Summons are pretty fantastic in PvP for a blackguard.

For a 20 blackguard a Verdant Prince starts out at 39 AB as you mentioned. With SF: Conjuration it goes to 40 AB. Adjust for an extra 2 AB from Bull's Strength. 42 AB now. Divine Might for a lv 20 blackguard gives the summon an additional 4 AB. Slap on a Divine Sequencer for the Aid, and now you're at 47 AB. If you're doing the 3 fighter/7 knight/20 BG build, then that's an additional +2 AB from Rallying Cry. 49 AB and Spell Resistance to make the summon hard to get rid of with WoF.

Paladins are going to get flat-footed and lose all that Divine Shield AC to somebody - either the summon or its caster. We're not even accounting for the +2 AB flank bonus.

Not to mention blackguards now have access to the best undead summons is letting blackguards have their cake and eat it. If I understand it right blackguards get access to all undead summons as long as they learn the stream. In concept wights will be nasty with a valiant knight build, but we'll see what "weaker summons" actually ends up meaning.

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