Utility/RP Spells and Summons

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Mortem_Fero
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Utility/RP Spells and Summons

Post by Mortem_Fero » Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:37 am

Hopped on my Warlock (Undying/Nigh hag) and just realised that no longer can invis my summons. I didnt sleep on the summon changes but never looked at the changes from an utility perspective.

I used to play a Shaman (until lvl 26 before the synergy+ changes) that used undead and played on surface. Same for my warlock that uses undead on surface I used the Invisibilty spell to hide my summons when I had to traverse densely populated areans (Nexus falls, etc) and could get into trouble for being in control of zombies/vamps (rightfully so).

There are dungeons or area transitions that can spawm monster directly at you when you transition and as a summoner you need to be prepared for that but you may need to hide the fact that travel the surface with a horde of zombies trailing you to get to said dungeon/area.

Not trying to argue that invisibility on summons gave you no mechanical power but it was a fun way to conceal my alignment. Wonder if there were more spells out there that were used for RP/utility purposes.

Slapstick
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Re: Utility/RP Spells and Summons

Post by Slapstick » Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:35 pm

I did the same. It’s not like it’s a huge issue, but invisibility has almost 0 combat utility and might as well be castable on summons because of the utility/RP use. I can’t really think of any other similar case.

Feylock’s special perk of hasting their own summon relentlessly has also gone down the drain. Not sure it needs to return, but it certainly was a rather key aspect of the pact IMO.

In general I feel like the warlocks ability to buff their summons was such an integral part of their design and balance power that some tuning might be warranted. Though admittedly I haven’t played warlock since the change.

Mortem_Fero
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Re: Utility/RP Spells and Summons

Post by Mortem_Fero » Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:28 pm

Not sure if we should discuss Warlock balance here. But I agree that warlock lost some power. You can aslo no longer Ultravision your summons as Warlock and play with Darkness. But I am not sure if that is a Warlock only situation. Stone bones also comes to mind and did not test if that one works on undead anymore (otherwise its only for your Vamp PC or Vamp PC buddy) which makes Undying pact spells even less attractive and I heard the consensus is that it had already the weakest spells.

We should move that discussion to a Warlock thread. Just wanted to talk about the *hiding your class identity/ RP* aspects of spells here.

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Aren
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Re: Utility/RP Spells and Summons

Post by Aren » Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:43 pm

Arcane Sequencer gives both extended improved invisibility and ultravision.

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Hazard
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Re: Utility/RP Spells and Summons

Post by Hazard » Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:32 pm

Aren wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:43 pm
Arcane Sequencer gives both extended improved invisibility and ultravision.
I think they just want regular invisibility, for free .. like they used to have.

Not to buy/craft a thing.

chris a gogo
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Re: Utility/RP Spells and Summons

Post by chris a gogo » Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:12 pm

Stone Bones works fine as do all minion based spells like awaken, magic fang etc..

xf1313
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Re: Utility/RP Spells and Summons

Post by xf1313 » Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:41 pm

New sequencers are such a burden. My artist cannot keep up with the demand of them...just wow.
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Brandon Steel
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Re: Utility/RP Spells and Summons

Post by Brandon Steel » Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:32 pm

It really is unfortunate because that was commonly what I did as well, it’s even harder than it already was to play these sort of characters on the surface. I’ve just resigned to not buffing summons anymore unfortunately. The price for the sequencers are insane and I would rather just spam the summons rather than try to go through the tedium that is crafting.

Itikar
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Re: Utility/RP Spells and Summons

Post by Itikar » Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:05 pm

I hope some spell exclusions can be revised. Invisibility should probably be one of them.

AstralUniverse
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Re: Utility/RP Spells and Summons

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:50 pm

Mortem_Fero wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:37 am
There are dungeons or area transitions that can spawm monster directly at you when you transition and as a summoner you need to be prepared for that but you may need to hide the fact that travel the surface with a horde of zombies trailing you to get to said dungeon/area.
Invisibility Sphere
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


Mortem_Fero
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Re: Utility/RP Spells and Summons

Post by Mortem_Fero » Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:27 pm

Only Hemo gets Invis Sphere - not sure about other caster thats the ony other caster i played after the above mentioned. Not Warlock nor Shaman (Unless wiki isnt up to date for Shaman but for Warloc i know)
Last edited by Mortem_Fero on Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mortem_Fero
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Re: Utility/RP Spells and Summons

Post by Mortem_Fero » Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:33 pm

@Aren And about Improved Invis - yeah I consider that a buff as it gives 50% concealment. Was looking at invis without direct mechanical power. So i guess we can still use the sequencer to hide summons. Have not found any at lvl 13 on my Hemo on Skal but also did not go out of my way to look for them/craft them. pretty sure its not a big deal on my epic Warlock to stock up on them. But for lower levels to hide you summons thats not an option. I think Irogron mentioned that low level sequencer will be purchansable by npcs but for now thats not the case.

This thread is in no way meant as a complaint btw - just never looked at the summon changes like this. That is harder to avoid beeing found out about using "evil summons". Followed the thread about the balance and impact of the summon changes and just lay low til the dust settles.
Last edited by Mortem_Fero on Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Eyeliner
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Re: Utility/RP Spells and Summons

Post by Eyeliner » Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:44 pm

I really feel like warlocks ought to be able to cast their infinite pact spells on their summons.

I'm trying to stay mum on this because I'm sure no one cares, but since there's a topic open... I'm not seeing these sequencers readily available or if they are they're priced at a point where I'd never consider using them. Could just be where I travel, I don't know, maybe there's a treasure trove of them in a shop in Guld I'm not checking, but an NPC selling at least the basic versions would be a big help.

TBH I don't have enough play time to do crafting at this level (meaning all the gathering and steps along the way, not to mention checking into the game all day when points refresh which I can't do) AND writs/dungeon raids AND meaningful RP so these sequencers barely exist to me. It is what it is but ideally some tweaks to make them more usable like the NPCs and some more exceptions for certain class-spell combos could be forthcoming.
Mortem_Fero wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:28 pm
Not sure if we should discuss Warlock balance here. But I agree that warlock lost some power. You can aslo no longer Ultravision your summons as Warlock and play with Darkness.
Edit instead of a new post... You know, NPC undead ignore darkness. Maybe player-summoned undead ought to have the same trait.

AstralUniverse
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Re: Utility/RP Spells and Summons

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:27 pm

The thing with warlock is that for PVE it doesnt really matter what you do. The class owns. In fact, the more meme you go and stray away from pvp optimization you just smurf pve even harder with even more infi spells and tricks up your sleeve.

PVP warlock build is exactly one, and it doesnt really summon (planar gate isnt really relevant here).

So overall I dont know if it's such a big deal. If the sole purpose of this is to pass by from A to B invisible with undead out, just buff them with sequencer, or live on invis sphere wands. We got a lot of portals and boats everywhere for quick passage. I agree it's inconvenience but at the same time I think if a necromancer runs around the realm with undead out, they should be warded for their own good or travel without their summons out.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


Mortem_Fero
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Re: Utility/RP Spells and Summons

Post by Mortem_Fero » Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:15 pm

I totally agree with you its not a big deal. Was just throwing it out there. Also really didnt mean to talk about Warlock thats why I mentioned Shaman and same for Dirgesinger or Palemaster - that have no access to Invisibility sphere (Unless bard/other caster class gives it to them or use wands)

And at high level being being fully warded necro while having summons out is a must as it invites conflict (on the surface).

Really talking about low level chars in their teens as it super easy to be metagamed what lvl you are if the opposing player knows what caster level your undeads are. That never stopped an epic Paladin or cleric to engage you - and shouldnt stop them as its their job. Invis gave you one way to deal with it and we all know a lot of players anywas run around with perma See Invis buff around settlements.

The other thing I tried - and I am not sure if out myself here and if we are not supposed to do that I will not try it again - is: Use my player tool to walk my zombies away in the corner when i walk through a map and if a players spots them and and acts "Are those yours?" I reply with "What you mean? Undead? Oh no lets kill them!" But very few players accted that and I get a tell "Dude they are blue - they are yours" :D

But even as a powrful undead/demon summoner you start at a low level and if you play surface it should be struggle.

AstralUniverse
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Re: Utility/RP Spells and Summons

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:36 pm

not even a week ago I ran into a duo of something like a mage and a fighter and as soon as they saw me the fighter started smacking the mage's undead summons in a very timely fashion. I had a chuckle and went along with it of course.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


malcolm_mountainslayer
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Re: Utility/RP Spells and Summons

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:30 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:27 pm
The thing with warlock is that for PVE it doesnt really matter what you do. The class owns. In fact, the more meme you go and stray away from pvp optimization you just smurf pve even harder with even more infi spells and tricks up your sleeve.

PVP warlock build is exactly one, and it doesnt really summon (planar gate isnt really relevant here).

So overall I dont know if it's such a big deal. If the sole purpose of this is to pass by from A to B invisible with undead out, just buff them with sequencer, or live on invis sphere wands. We got a lot of portals and boats everywhere for quick passage. I agree it's inconvenience but at the same time I think if a necromancer runs around the realm with undead out, they should be warded for their own good or travel without their summons out.
there were/are somewhat viable hybrid warlock pvp. Particular the fiend blaster locks than save on a summon feat. They can even stop at tier 5 if they so please and spend only one feat on summoning.

A fiend pact can have eldritch mastery 3, eldritch spear, eldritch chain, tier 6 summons and have 10% wild surging on all their blasts.

So even if we did concede that 'warlock pve balance is meh' (why take away fun cookies that the pacts seemed clearly designed around?) I would argue summoning is still very pvp valid for warlocks and not being able to haste your summon is really off. When all the other arcane users, including the elementalist, can cast mass haste.

Babylon System is the Vampire
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Re: Utility/RP Spells and Summons

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:44 am

Arcane sequencers are (or should be) Really cheap. As a diviner wizard (meaning I usually npc the improved invisibility scroll) I still make them for less than 1k, and sell them for less than 2k. I realize that the server has plenty of Martin Shkreli types that want to jack up the prices because they know you need it, but it's been a month or more now. If you haven't worked out a system where you aren't spending more than 2.5k or so (and even that's ridiculous) that's on you, not the Martins.

chris a gogo
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Re: Utility/RP Spells and Summons

Post by chris a gogo » Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:26 am

Not seen them sold for less than 4k in the UD which isn't much when your getting 30k+ a run, but even so it is annoying to have to constantly look for a shop selling them, and much like the spell components they sell fast because no one wants more tedium of grinding out yet another item.
The only upside to them is that the components to make them are light weight.

AstralUniverse
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Re: Utility/RP Spells and Summons

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:27 am

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:30 am
A fiend pact can have eldritch mastery 3, eldritch spear, eldritch chain, tier 6 summons and have 10% wild surging on all their blasts.
idk I'm counting 10 feats. 3 pact feats, 3 mastery feats, 2 shape feats, 2 summon feats. That's just not possible. You're 1 feat too high in the count. So at that point you need to drop summoning for precision blast or drop mastery 2 and 3 for epic summon. Which brings us back to the fact there's just one pvp warlock. (or arguably 2, if you also count the blaster bg dip which is lower on the 1v1 potential but is a decent party support as well, neither of them is summon invested either way)

Summoning is alright for warlock in pvp, I'm not saying otherwise, but you can take Planar gate (or just read a book of gate I guess?), they even come out hasted when summoned, and it doesnt cost you *all* your pvp power as a blaster.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


malcolm_mountainslayer
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Re: Utility/RP Spells and Summons

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:28 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:27 am
malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:30 am
A fiend pact can have eldritch mastery 3, eldritch spear, eldritch chain, tier 6 summons and have 10% wild surging on all their blasts.
idk I'm counting 10 feats. 3 pact feats, 3 mastery feats, 2 shape feats, 2 summon feats. That's just not possible. You're 1 feat too high in the count. So at that point you need to drop summoning for precision blast or drop mastery 2 and 3 for epic summon. Which brings us back to the fact there's just one pvp warlock. (or arguably 2, if you also count the blaster bg dip which is lower on the 1v1 potential but is a decent party support as well, neither of them is summon invested either way)

Summoning is alright for warlock in pvp, I'm not saying otherwise, but you can take Planar gate (or just read a book of gate I guess?), they even come out hasted when summoned, and it doesnt cost you *all* your pvp power as a blaster.
Yeah I drop precision blast and take blindfight at lvl 1 since i cant take any metamagic or spell foci at lvl 1 anyways. Its not a pure blaster, but I think it is well worth having a tier 6 summon.

You can also easily work a tier 5 summon, especially if we were still able to infini haste our summons. Tier 5 after hasted is on par with gate but lasts longer (and can still make use of sequencer + mass bull str buff)

*EDIT*
My apologies
I may have been settlign for tier 5 to begin with
warlock 30 has 9 feats

abyssal 3
mastery 3
spear 1
Chain 1
Eldritch summoner 1 looks like i was settling for tier 5 which still is better than the epic feat gate. Especially after buffing and hasting. So casting pact spells on summons is very relevant on both pve and pvp scene for a a fiendlock.

*further edit*

I also currently workign on a hideous lock that goes for tier 6 summon and has better blast damage than pure blasters (but with weakness for only one target) and then spams chain lightning for group range stuff. He will probably get eaten alive from weaponmasters without massive kiting and luck. But I would still like to haste my summons with him reliably. Especialy when i can use the warlock exclusive spell to teleport someone beside me and my summon (and possibly umd a timestop book to immediately begin to high hideous blast damage the enemy).

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