[Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

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Dreams
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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by Dreams » Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:46 am

In Sorrow We Trust wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:27 am
Post all feedback related to the Undead Stream expansion here.
When you type -ucl by itself, it only then tells you how to use the command. Could I suggest that typing -ucl gives you the feedback of what UCL you have access to? That way it can also be used as a quick look by players to have a better idea of what they're expecting to see.

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by Waldo52 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:56 am

xf1313 wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:25 am
Can u please add undead stream items to PGCC so people can test them better? Currently we can only access to certain streams via class and race, but there are a few... Wraith, for example, is not available to anyone
Yeah, this was a big problem for me.

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by Justaplayer » Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:39 am

Initial thoughts on the undead so far. I've done some limited testing on ghouls and zombies both tier 6 no focuses in a few dungeons.

Firstly I love this update, my main is an undying warlock so more undead = more fun for me.


Ghouls
Damage is huge with a trade off for no sustain, turn resistance, ac, hp etc. which is cool and gives them a niche. Only problem is they also only have 24 ab. In mid level content probably up to around 20's it's fine with sequencers they can survive for a while and dish out big numbers. In epic dungeons though they die before they even roll high enough to hit anything and make an impact.

Zombies
Slightly weaker than the mummies they replaced, damage etc is about the same but the lower resistances and regen make more of a difference than i thought they would. They aren't bad, just weaker. I've mostly been using these because they tend to last a bit longer and save my casts.

RE: Blackguards that most posts seem to be about, I also had the thought going either or would make sense.

(Give undying lock a summon boost) >.>

So all in all great work and i'm sure some fine tuning will be happening over the next few updates and i'm looking forward to testing out the rest.

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Dreams
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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by Dreams » Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:02 am

It's very hard to give feedback on this because we don't know what to expect or whether what we're seeing is right. Could we please have a list of what the summons are, what stats they have, and who is meant to summon what?

When updates happen and we see a particular summon gets buffed by +4 AC or AB, it is meaningless if there is no prior information to compare it to.

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by Purplemyst » Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:41 am

This probably isn't the best feedback as I haven't had the chance to try out the new summons in a mechanical sense, but I have just seen the post with the pictures and just wanted to say thank you! There is so much variety and the options look so cool.

Makes we want to roll up a necro focused char!

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by Kelaris » Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:44 pm

Drowned dead, at least tiers 1-5 (I think) seem to be missing standard undead immunities.

It would be nice if warlocks had more options to access higher tiers of undead summons. Maybe a selection from the eldritch summon feat/ability? Tried to make a fathomless warlock pirate necromancer sort of thing until I realized I was stuck with relatively low level zombies.

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:23 pm

I'm paying attention to the thread but I can't formulate responses well on my phone. Will be adding stream access to PGCC though.

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by God_In_Action » Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:49 pm

So far I've compared the ghoul stream with the mummy stream. For a challenge, I took Tier 4 summons solo (not yet teen levels) through the Malarite temple and in the FoD. It was obviously going to be tough and that was the point.

The ghouls look creepy and disturbing, which is perfect. I'm in love with how fast they crawl around. When you face content at the lower end of content suitable for your level, the ghouls survive okay but they do need regular healing. As soon as they entered the Malarite Temple they got wrecked by the very first mob and they took damage so quickly that I could do nothing to save them. Their damage output is good, but not so far ahead of the mummies that I would pick them if I knew I was facing a tough dungeon.

The mummies did however manage to survive. They needed healing, but could tank the Malarites. The lower levels were extremely tough and it took a LOT of very tactical play and consumables to complete the dungeon. So long as the mummies weren't outnumbered, they could be relied upon. They got wrecked when they met three priests all at once and as would be expected they couldn't survive getting hit by a few firestorm spells in a row. Their damage is still impressive and high enough that the damage-vs-survivability seems preferable to the ghouls.

I struggle to think of a dungeon where the lower-survivability but higher-damage of the ghouls would be preferable to the tankiness of the mummies, except when in dungeons at the low end of whatever is level appropriate.

My take is that I like that the different streams are not comparable and have different niches. Some streams will be better in some circumstances, and vice versa. However, it will take more testing yet to decide if the streams are differentiated enough that they do in fact each have a niche. The fear will be that although they are all different, with different strengths and weaknesses, some of the streams will still have enough of an edge to be preferable in most or even all situations.

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by Ping14 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:01 pm

With this update, I think I'll rock my dirgesinger again.
Currently experiencing a writer's block, hence out of the game for a good 2 weeks.
Will definitely post a feedback after.

Just have to find an excuse as to why initially they were mummies initially then zombies after.
Will have to find the stream tomes fast too, if they are even tomes that is.
With the new streams: Ghost, Beast spirits, and wraiths - it opens up new narrative that I was looking forward to.
I can even continue my story without a relevel now that wraiths are part of the stream.

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:00 pm

Overall some points I wanted to share:

1. "-ucl" feedback: I'll take a look at making this command more QoL with readouts of current summon stream + tier + name of summon that will appear when used.

2. Streams on PGCC: I'll be making it so everyone can access all the streams on PGCC.

3. Balance/numeric concerns: These are still being worked through. It will take some time to really get the kinks out of them and sometimes factors are different. What the Wiki says isn't entirely accurate yet, either, and numbers are always being adjusted. We're also trying to balance with considerations of the summon being sequenced/mass zoo buffed and negative energy burst.

4. Summon spells, tiers, number of summons, strength of summons: For balance reasons, I've had to ensure that lower level spells also outputted weaker summons, which is why you may see Animate Dead putting out an Abomination that is 2 tiers lower than you're capable of summoning. This is intentional, but I'm still reviewing whether it's necessary or not. The concern was trying to get them about equal across the board within the limitations of the system.

5. Blackguard: Summon numbers, tiers, and other roads of thought are still under consideration; needs more testing and thought before that can be finalized, but if it's noticeable that these summons aren't beneficial to the Blackguard, they will receive adjustments in terms of tiers, number of summons, etc.

It's just a lot to work through. Thanks for your feedback, guys.

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by chris a gogo » Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:24 pm

UCL is currently bugged and you have to set the caster level manually.
Other than that i quite like it.

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by God_In_Action » Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:47 am

I have now taken Zombies through Morghunn's. They play and feel essentially identical to mummies, although the difference in fire vulnerability would be noticeable in certain dungeons like RDI or Burning Shores. They feel similar enough that in most situations you could reasonably pick either one for aesthetic reasons.

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Shaman

Post by xf1313 » Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:53 am

So I just made a test character shaman with gsf necromancy, I found 2 things in particular

1, naked dwarf appear randomly, especially for beast spirit stream
Error no summon blueprint could be found (inc_summon) please report this bug. Spell ID = 2

2, unstable tier for sommon, where I got tier 2 when lv 7 (6 shaman 1 warlock) and tier 1 at lv 8 (6 shaman 2 warlock) odd
Last edited by xf1313 on Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shaman

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:05 am

xf1313 wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:53 am
So I just made a test character shaman with gsf necromancy, I found 2 things in particular

1, naked dwarf appear randomly, especially for beast spirit stream
2, unstable tier for sommon, where I got tier 2 when lv 7 (6 shaman 1 warlock) and tier 1 at lv 8 (6 shaman 2 warlock) odd
Keep me posted on this? If it does it again after a reset, let me know.

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by WitchyEvil » Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:39 am

Dirge Ghosties Seem to have broken:
https://imgur.com/a/s6nKFDF
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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by Dreams » Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:03 am

Level 19 Wizard / 3 Fathomless, using Greater Necro Focus ability to summon from the Drowned Dead, getting 3x "Summoned Lacedon" who have 16 AC, 98 HP, and 10AB. Is this meant to happen?

edit: same thing is happening for every stream, it seems like it summons very low CL undead. This is happening on any spell used to cast: Animate Dead, Create Dead, Create Greater Undead, EMD.

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by chris a gogo » Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:43 am

Beast stream tier 6 summon kills your XP gain.

I went from getting 16-20+ xp per kill with tier 6 zombies to 1xp gain with beast stream tier 6 bear.

Even the yellow mobs that generally give up to 100 dropped to giving 3 xp.

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by Dreams » Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:53 am

Dreams wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:03 am
Level 19 Wizard / 3 Fathomless, using Greater Necro Focus ability to summon from the Drowned Dead, getting 3x "Summoned Lacedon" who have 16 AC, 98 HP, and 10AB. Is this meant to happen?

edit: same thing is happening for every stream, it seems like it summons very low CL undead. This is happening on any spell used to cast: Animate Dead, Create Dead, Create Greater Undead, EMD.
Leveled up to 20wiz/3fathomless and now have UCL 5 (previously had UCL 6 one level before)

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:58 am

chris a gogo wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:43 am
Beast stream tier 6 summon kills your XP gain.

I went from getting 16-20+ xp per kill with tier 6 zombies to 1xp gain with beast stream tier 6 bear.

Even the yellow mobs that generally give up to 100 dropped to giving 3 xp.
What are you killing?

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by xf1313 » Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:37 pm

A bit more playing around on PGCC, the main thing I wish to address is, undead AC really needs some help.

I would imagine the lower tier undead doing ok. And I tried a tier one drowned dead vs Dwarven crypt. It needs help, a lot of misses, getting hit quite a bit, but manageable.

But when I look at the Mummy dust, let me go through them

Lv 30 wizard with ESF Necromancy

1. Abomination, lv 22 AC 23, HP 792
2. Beast spirits, the Bear, lv 22, AC 30, HP 680
3. Drowned dead, I got 3 of them, the strongest is lv 20, pirate returner, AC 29, HP 346
4, Ghost, 2, the Banshee is Lv 21, AC 38, HP 482
5, Ghoul, 3, the abyssal one is lv 21, AC 28, HP 284
6, Mummy, 3, mummy lord is lv 20, AC 28, HP 346

I am not sure if all work as intended , just post here what I got from mummy dust spell. To be honest I wasn’t that concerned with ab, but their survival. The previous mention of balancing them after buff has got me alerted, hence why I spent time in PGCC to make prisms.

Only the ghost looks like it might tank for a bit. The end game mobs...make HP drop like waterfall. Especially with an AC of 20ish, so about every blow of the enermy can hit those undead. Thou I hope someone can run deep well for a bit to complete feedback on this particular section. Are they doing a bit better now? My old palemaster was quite a joke down there.

Not every player has mass zoo, mass haste, aura of vitality, best tier sequencers available at their disposal. If the team would balance undead summon based on the most scary buffing case scenario, I can understand, yet that might create a lot of stresses on other players who do not buff that much.

Speaking for myself only, I do not think I can afford anything more than a lesser sequencer. If I am not a wizard, I cannot spare this much skill point in lore and perchase mass buffs. However if they become a ‘must’ for the summons to reach the intended strength... There is nothing I can do about it, I still do not have the buffs, have to try to cope with under performing ones.
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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:40 pm

xf1313 wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:37 pm
A bit more playing around on PGCC, the main thing I wish to address is, undead AC really needs some help.

I would imagine the lower tier undead doing ok. And I tried a tier one drowned dead vs Dwarven crypt. It needs help, a lot of misses, getting hit quite a bit, but manageable.

But when I look at the Mummy dust, let me go through them

Lv 30 wizard with ESF Necromancy

1. Abomination, lv 22 AC 23, HP 792
2. Beast spirits, the Bear, lv 22, AC 30, HP 680
3. Drowned dead, I got 3 of them, the strongest is lv 20, pirate returner, AC 29, HP 346
4, Ghost, 2, the Banshee is Lv 21, AC 38, HP 482
5, Ghoul, 3, the abyssal one is lv 21, AC 28, HP 284
6, Mummy, 3, mummy lord is lv 20, AC 28, HP 346

I am not sure if all work as intended , just post here what I got from mummy dust spell. To be honest I wasn’t that concerned with ab, but their survival. The previous mention of balancing them after buff has got me alerted, hence why I spent time in PGCC to make prisms.

Only the ghost looks like it might tank for a bit. The end game mobs...make HP drop like waterfall. Especially with an AC of 20ish, so about every blow of the enermy can hit those undead. Thou I hope someone can run deep well for a bit to complete feedback on this particular section. Are they doing a bit better now? My old palemaster was quite a joke down there.

Not every player has mass zoo, mass haste, aura of vitality, best tier sequencers available at their disposal. If the team would balance undead summon based on the most scary buffing case scenario, I can understand, yet that might create a lot of stresses on other players who do not buff that much.

Speaking for myself only, I do not think I can afford anything more than a lesser sequencer. If I am not a wizard, I cannot spare this much skill point in lore and perchase mass buffs. However if they become a ‘must’ for the summons to reach the intended strength... There is nothing I can do about it, I still do not have the buffs, have to try to cope with under performing ones.
Many undead receive survivability in the form of damage reduction, damage immunity and concealment. In many cases if AC is low, it's shored up by those resistances.

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by xf1313 » Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:23 pm

In Sorrow We Trust wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:40 pm

Many undead receive survivability in the form of damage reduction, damage immunity and concealment. In many cases if AC is low, it's shored up by those resistances.
I ‘ll wait for someone to take them to high level dungeons, do not have a Necromancer on live server XD. Really hope they are doing better than old mummy dust.

Sorry I forgot to mention, the naked dwarf showed up again on PGCC, when I attempted low tier beast spirit. I think that is a unstable stream for some unknown reason.
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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:25 pm

xf1313 wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:23 pm
In Sorrow We Trust wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:40 pm

Many undead receive survivability in the form of damage reduction, damage immunity and concealment. In many cases if AC is low, it's shored up by those resistances.
I ‘ll wait for someone to take them to high level dungeons, do not have a Necromancer on live server XD. Really hope they are doing better than old mummy dust.

Sorry I forgot to mention, the naked dwarf showed up again on PGCC, when I attempted low tier beast spirit. I think that is a unstable stream for some unknown reason.
PGCC hasn't been reset

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by chris a gogo » Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:51 pm

by In Sorrow We Trust » 13 Aug 2022 11:58

chris a gogo wrote: ↑13 Aug 2022 09:43
Beast stream tier 6 summon kills your XP gain.

I went from getting 16-20+ xp per kill with tier 6 zombies to 1xp gain with beast stream tier 6 bear.

Even the yellow mobs that generally give up to 100 dropped to giving 3 xp.
What are you killing?
PM sent with that information.

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by God_In_Action » Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:25 pm

More on the testing of streams on the main server:

The difference between Create Undead and Create Greater Undead is vast. I previously wrote about how 2x Tier 4 Mummies could battle their way through Malarite Temple in FoD with tactical play, but having taken 3x Tier 4 mummies through Morghunn's the difference was immediate and huge. The 2x mummies struggles managed and at times struggles, whereas 3x bashed their way through with ease.

I have now tried 3x Tier 4 ghouls against mountain orcs. The ghouls remain squishy and difficult to play because of that. The damage is noticeable when compared against mummies, more so with 3x than 2x. However, the ghouls get easily squished if you aren't paying very close attention to them. What's truly frustrating is to lose one summon, and therefore then be at sub-optimal strength unless you want to burn another top spell slot and summon them all again. The real pain comes if you're trying to carefully manage the 3 ghouls with the associate tool, only to click on one of them in a very chaotic fight (easily done in a fight with lots of enemies) which then causes them all to stand still for a couple or three of rounds whilst you sort out controlling all associates again and get them attacking the right target. Even just 2 rounds is enough time of them being flat footed for one of the ghouls to get killed.

So that's my new take: the frustration with the high damage/lower survivability of some of the streams is that once you lose one of the summons, that's your use of that spell slot effectively over. If you start over with casting a high level animation spell again like Create Greater Undead, you're wasting the surviving 2 summons which you already had along with any buffs on them. Or else, you can struggles along with fewer summons that you could have. To be effective, they all have to survive all of the time since you can't top up the summons. Would it be an interesting idea if you could 'top up' the max spawned undead with a lower tier spell? I.e. you cast Create Greater Undead to create 3 undead, one of them dies, so you cast Animate Undead to summon one more and 'top up' back to 3 summons?

This really pushes me towards the tankier summons, so that I don't lose one of them and waste another spell slot and summon sequencer charges having to replace it.

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