Arelith

Post all feedback related to the Undead Stream expansion here.

This is less an undead problem and more a PC problem, but with very initial testing I am finding all the equivalent mummy dust options available to me significantly weaker than any of the PC options. I only have immediate access to ghouls, zombies and drowned on this particular char, though.

Aog wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:30 am

This is less an undead problem and more a PC problem, but with very initial testing I am finding all the equivalent mummy dust options available to me significantly weaker than any of the PC options. I only have immediate access to ghouls, zombies and drowned on this particular char, though.

Planar Conduit is almost certainly overtuned. I don't want to speak for SK here but it'd be best to compare strength wise against Mummy Dust Classic and the original undead streams rather than PC which needs a look.

Shouldn't summons be compared across the whole range of what's available?

It feels like summons have gone through a history of: Summons are generally ok > Planar Conduit comes out and is crazy OP > Solution is to remove buffs from summons which are now too weak > All summons become crazy in order to cope with no buffs + Sequencers come in to buff summons > Planar Conduit remains OP but isn't considered when balancing other summon updates?

My timeline could be wrong, but that's the general idea I've had about what has gone on. These things have all happened alongside other ways to buff summons, like bard seems to be an absolute powerhouse now? There's been so much change and difficult-to-follow documentation, it's very hard to identify what the actual problem is other than noting that there is one with Planar Conduit even now.

I think the point is: devs are well aware that PC is overtuned and are due for a nerf. Hence it’s a bad baseline even if it is the best summon at this point.

Okay! Further testing! I think a lot of the streams are actually quite good. Ghouls feel especially weak, but default zombos, ghosts, the abomination and the beast spirits all feel really solid and like they have a place.

Dont compare it to PC as others said.
Compare it to the old Mummy Dust.
PC in its current form can still wreck most places with a greater divine sequencer in combo with mass haste and mass zoo bufs.
I dont think that is the intended finnal design for them.

The new undead look amazing for starters and do hold up well when compared to what mummy dust used to be.

And Blackguards can now go upto tier 7 ones!!!
Looks like i know what my next Alt will be..
Huge thanks for the hours of work put into this!

These are great!
Just a few things that I noticed so far:

Zombie Tyrants (who have knockdown) keep attempting to KD huge creatures even if it always fails.
Zombie Dread Tyrant (who has improved knockdown) does not seem to be using KD at all.


Both the Abyssal Ghoul and Abyssal Ghoul Lord seem to count as small creatures. They have knockdown and they keep using it against large creatures where it always fails.
The shield bubbles from arcane sequencers are ridiculously large when applied on Abyssal Ghouls.

Small feedback so far:
- Really loving the new designs
- I like that there is a now a choice between number summoned depending upon stream. Ex: Going for a single more powerful abomination instead of 3x zombies etc. I'm a bit iffy on the strength gap between the two offensively against comparable ACs at the Mummy Dust level but I haven't had much to test it against yet so could easily be wrong.

Side note put people have been saying PC needs a nerf for nearly a year now. Even when the whole massive summon change happened PC still stayed as is. Im not sure why everyone keeps saying a nerf is on the cards, seems like theres been ample opportunity to do it and it isnt happening. Im no coder but shaving off a few AB and AC and a bit of damage doesnt seem like it would be incredibly complex work so I can only assume the reason it hasnt happened is because the balance and dev team are happy where it sits. New streams look awesome flavor but powerwise I think I'll just stick with PC.

Okay so, mucked about a bit, and these are my thoughts (so far)

ESF: Necro Wizard:
Ghouls: Lackluster for their low AC, low HP
Zombies: Feel strong, I wish they weren't tyrantfog based as I hate the cloud visually obscuring parts of the tile. But that's a me thing.

---
No Necro Focus Priest:
Drowned Dead: Create Greater Undead
These have none of the other undead immunities or attributes and were comparably weaker to other 'lesser' animation spells. Didn't seem worth it beyond the theme.

--
Dirgesinger:
Ghosts: exceedingly OP at a low level with more HP/AB/AC than the drowned dead (of a higher cast tier) listed above.

Potentially once I have some alts levelled and or tested over in pgcc, I can have a better comparison on how the tiers measure up by stream.

Dirgesinger - Ghost stream feedback:

The Banshees are awesome !

You summon two and they are stronger defensively then the Mummy dust but I think they are are on par or slightly weaker in offense then the previous Mummy Dust, their AB and damage seems to be just right, their HP, defenses and especially their Look seem to be spot on (from a lvl 30 character perspective) and fit greatly with the Dirgesinger theme.

I believe they are very well designed and work greatly with the Dirgesinger due to their level drain on hit, Banshee wail and Sneak attacks combined with Dirgesingers debuffing and burst damage.

One thing i noticed though - the Banshee Countess seems to have only One use of the Banshee Wail?
It doesn't seem to be working on any cooldown or maybe the cooldown is very long?
When she casts her Wail thats it, and she casts it on first enemy spotted so usually is completly wasted.

When compared to previous Mummy Dust i definitely prefer the Banshees now.

I've checked also the Shaman Spirit Beast stream on PGCC:

Shaman (pure lvl 30, all Necro spell focuses)

The Spirit beast stream summons ONE creature only.

But WOOAH it is strong

I think that spirit beast stream needs to be looked at.
Its a good idea for it to summon one creature and is very thematic to have it as an animal spirit but mechanically I think it is too strong.

By simple buffs on the PGCC (Aura of Vitality, Mass Haste) this Wolf had 826 hp, 7 Regeneration, 5 attacks and was hitting with AB43 for 78 damage per hit?

Its saves are low yes.. but it comes with full set of undead immunities too, so no paralyzis, no critical hits.
I summoned 6 ancient red dragons against it on PGCC and easily killed them all at the same time, 8 was bit too much due to breath attacks.

Undeath domain clerics have lost the Vampire stream, but gained the old Vampire stream at level 9.

Also, how will the number of creatures which varies with stream interact with the undead summoning line of spells now? Are there any changes to Creater Greater Undead versus Creatre Undead when summoning a 2 creature stream versus a 3 creature stream?

Very cool stuff with the new undead summons! No doubt it will be totally sweet for all kinds of undead summoning casters.

I was pumped that it might also provide a neat alternative for BGs, or at least something that could be used situationally or as a "backup plan." My BG has 20 BG levels and Epic Fiend feat.

I popped off my Create Undead. I got:

- A Single (1) Zombie Tyrant
- With 29 (tested) AB, 2 attacks per round
- 26 AC
- 310 HP
- Regen 3

I think this might actually WORSE than the old Doom Knight was?

Is this the intended behavior?

Love the addition of new themes, but....

Animal Spirits are Fey creatures, not Undead. Not actual animated souls/corpses but echoes of creatures that have left their mark on the people in an area or the land itself. (For comparison, a similar manifestation of a human will know and remember famous events from their past, but not necessarily what their favourite food was, or who their first love was, because they are created from the memories of the living, not the actual soul/ghost of the dead person.)

I would like to see an Animal Spirit theme for Shaman (and perhaps totem casters) but not as an undead summon.

Perhaps Nature Zombies/Skeletons would be more appropriate? Various animals, beasts, vermin and such?

Tried out the zombies and beasts.

The beast spirit looks strong but as it's a single summon mobs can focus it down fairly quickly as did happen in spirggans, it died to the first spawn group.
Switched to zombies and they did much better with the attacks being spread and more damage being dished out completed the dungeon only using 2 Create greater undead spells zombie stream.
Both were buffed with the lesser arcane sequencer.
1 henchman also used and given ac concealment.
Caster level of 17.
Conclusion.

Beast spirit looks good but two attacks per round cannot compete with 6 from the three zombies with only 3 extra AB it would be more of a thematic choice than a practical one.
The zombies are armed with axes switching the damage from bludgeoning to slashing which is more resisted so not optimal from some things but over all little difference between them and the former mummy stream, so far.

Arienette wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:11 pm

Very cool stuff with the new undead summons! No doubt it will be totally sweet for all kinds of undead summoning casters.

I was pumped that it might also provide a neat alternative for BGs, or at least something that could be used situationally or as a "backup plan." My BG has 20 BG levels and Epic Fiend feat.

I popped off my Create Undead. I got:

- A Single (1) Zombie Tyrant
- With 29 (tested) AB, 2 attacks per round
- 26 AC
- 310 HP
- Regen 3

I think this might actually WORSE than the old Doom Knight was?

Is this the intended behavior?

I had the same problem.

I'm glad that the team is at least gesturing towards expanded blackguard undead options but what I'm seeing isn't even remotely competitive with the fiend. Mechanically our tier 7 summon is a shoddy fallback option. This is my only major criticism so far.

On a more minor note, I've seen a couple forms with sneak attack and the damage is really nominal. It would be so much fun to have little undead panther equivalents! I think we could make this happen and would open up some very interesting play styles.

I really love that Blackguard got some undead love , as they've languished there for some time, but rather than always being an outsider summoner first, is there any chance we could get an epic undead servant feat that locks you out of epic fiendish servant and vice versa?

I want to be able to go hard on the death knight vibes

Aog wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:48 pm

I really love that Blackguard got some undead love , as they've languished there for some time, but rather than always being an outsider summoner first, is there any chance we could get an epic undead servant feat that locks you out of epic fiendish servant and vice versa?

I want to be able to go hard on the death knight vibes

I think if that route was taken then give BGs a free feat at level 4 or 5 that can only either be "undead focus" or "fiend focus":
- If you take fiend it works like present.
- If you take undead then Create Undead summons the full contingent and Epic Fiendish Servant will boost it up to the same strength as Mummy Dust. However your fiends are 1 tier lower (and cap at tier 4 as Epic "Fiendish" Servant doesn't aid them).

That way they could play undead heavy at the start.

I have to jump on the band waggon for this also.

BG options are actually rather bad right now. Zombie is a good example, I think they should at least get 2 pets, not just the 1. they don't even get the 7t version. Normal caster gets 2 t6 and 1 t7. BG gets 1 t6.

It was indicated in discord by devs that the BG undead will be boosted up. Less than regular but better than the single sad zombie they get now.

Arienette wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:16 pm

single sad zombie they get now.

hehe.. funny.

Any hoot. after taking BG for a decent flogging I have worked out my suggestions to this.

For a start, more minions. Rocking just one is just makes me cry a bit.

thus far i tested beast, abom, zombie, and vamp.

So
vamp should get either the t7 or 2 t6
abom should get a t6
beast should be t6
zombie should get 3t6 or 1 t6 and 1t7

I wager most of the other streams not available on test are similar.

Skeleton is one that I so think should be 4 pets, just no t7. but I'd need to test to see how good they are. on paper they don't seem fantastic, but would like to test.

Also, a final idea might be to allow a feat at BG 19 that allows for unrestricted summoning of undead. Alternately, a choice at earlier levels that works like a pact and can branch out a BG into planer or undead lines.

Can u please add undead stream items to PGCC so people can test them better? Currently we can only access to certain streams via class and race, but there are a few... Wraith, for example, is not available to anyone

Would/should Loremaster necro secret create greater undead get tier 6-7 on a BG 19 w/ epic fiend?

Tested on PGCC with 20 bg, feat, 4 lm and necro secret: 3 undead berzerkers on zombie stream. I think that's tier 5.

I don't have an opinion one way or the other, but that's an edge case to consider.