[Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:22 pm

God_In_Action wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:25 pm
More on the testing of streams on the main server:

The difference between Create Undead and Create Greater Undead is vast. I previously wrote about how 2x Tier 4 Mummies could battle their way through Malarite Temple in FoD with tactical play, but having taken 3x Tier 4 mummies through Morghunn's the difference was immediate and huge. The 2x mummies struggles managed and at times struggles, whereas 3x bashed their way through with ease.

I have now tried 3x Tier 4 ghouls against mountain orcs. The ghouls remain squishy and difficult to play because of that. The damage is noticeable when compared against mummies, more so with 3x than 2x. However, the ghouls get easily squished if you aren't paying very close attention to them. What's truly frustrating is to lose one summon, and therefore then be at sub-optimal strength unless you want to burn another top spell slot and summon them all again. The real pain comes if you're trying to carefully manage the 3 ghouls with the associate tool, only to click on one of them in a very chaotic fight (easily done in a fight with lots of enemies) which then causes them all to stand still for a couple or three of rounds whilst you sort out controlling all associates again and get them attacking the right target. Even just 2 rounds is enough time of them being flat footed for one of the ghouls to get killed.

So that's my new take: the frustration with the high damage/lower survivability of some of the streams is that once you lose one of the summons, that's your use of that spell slot effectively over. If you start over with casting a high level animation spell again like Create Greater Undead, you're wasting the surviving 2 summons which you already had along with any buffs on them. Or else, you can struggles along with fewer summons that you could have. To be effective, they all have to survive all of the time since you can't top up the summons. Would it be an interesting idea if you could 'top up' the max spawned undead with a lower tier spell? I.e. you cast Create Greater Undead to create 3 undead, one of them dies, so you cast Animate Undead to summon one more and 'top up' back to 3 summons?

This really pushes me towards the tankier summons, so that I don't lose one of them and waste another spell slot and summon sequencer charges having to replace it.
Firstly, thanks for your detailed feedback so far.

1. I get what you're saying. Ghouls actually are intended to be kind of a squishy, ravenous set of dead. It's possible they need their damage bumped up a little bit to compete, and maybe an increase of durability, at least to help them cope.

2. I like the idea of allowing weaker spells to top off summons, but with the way things are set up currently I am not sure it's possible to do. Let me look into it?

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by God_In_Action » Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:57 pm

In Sorrow We Trust wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:22 pm
Firstly, thanks for your detailed feedback so far.

1. I get what you're saying. Ghouls actually are intended to be kind of a squishy, ravenous set of dead. It's possible they need their damage bumped up a little bit to compete, and maybe an increase of durability, at least to help them cope.

2. I like the idea of allowing weaker spells to top off summons, but with the way things are set up currently I am not sure it's possible to do. Let me look into it?
I see that balancing the streams is like a tight rope walk. Make the streams such as ghouls too tanky, and they become superior to the likes of the zombies and mummies. My feeling so far has been that a slight increase in survivability would be preferable- their DPS is already good and now that I've used them with Create Greater Undead and compared to Mummies for a bit longer, the damage difference is very noticeable. With mummies, you're looking at perhaps 15-20 damage per hit per mummy. With Ghouls you're looking at 25-30. The speed makes a difference too, since the ghouls can rapidly run around to target a priority, such as an enemy spell caster or something which has run towards the player.

And, not every stream has to be equally good in all scenarios. But so far I have struggled to find a dungeon in the low to mid teens that low-survivability/high damage is preferable to high survivability/respectable damage.

New example: Took 3x Tier 4 mummies through the Stone Gauntlet giants. It felt like a dungeon designed to the strengths of the mummies and I never really felt in danger. The only thinking that I really had to do was when the Giant Shamans had fire shields, and that was as simple as using my other spell slots. The mummies definitely don't need any buffs. Likewise the zombies, since they're so similar.

Also, by the way, this is on an undeath cleric with effectively unlimited Negative Energy Ray and Negative Energy Burst to heal the undead. I can ony imagine how quickly the ghouls would die without that (i.e. very!).

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:02 pm

chris a gogo wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:51 pm
by In Sorrow We Trust » 13 Aug 2022 11:58

chris a gogo wrote: ↑13 Aug 2022 09:43
Beast stream tier 6 summon kills your XP gain.

I went from getting 16-20+ xp per kill with tier 6 zombies to 1xp gain with beast stream tier 6 bear.

Even the yellow mobs that generally give up to 100 dropped to giving 3 xp.
What are you killing?
PM sent with that information.
Fix in the pipeline for this issue.

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by Scylon » Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:51 pm

In Sorrow We Trust wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:22 pm
God_In_Action wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:25 pm
More on the testing of streams on the main server:

The difference between Create Undead and Create Greater Undead is vast. I previously wrote about how 2x Tier 4 Mummies could battle their way through Malarite Temple in FoD with tactical play, but having taken 3x Tier 4 mummies through Morghunn's the difference was immediate and huge. The 2x mummies struggles managed and at times struggles, whereas 3x bashed their way through with ease.

I have now tried 3x Tier 4 ghouls against mountain orcs. The ghouls remain squishy and difficult to play because of that. The damage is noticeable when compared against mummies, more so with 3x than 2x. However, the ghouls get easily squished if you aren't paying very close attention to them. What's truly frustrating is to lose one summon, and therefore then be at sub-optimal strength unless you want to burn another top spell slot and summon them all again. The real pain comes if you're trying to carefully manage the 3 ghouls with the associate tool, only to click on one of them in a very chaotic fight (easily done in a fight with lots of enemies) which then causes them all to stand still for a couple or three of rounds whilst you sort out controlling all associates again and get them attacking the right target. Even just 2 rounds is enough time of them being flat footed for one of the ghouls to get killed.

So that's my new take: the frustration with the high damage/lower survivability of some of the streams is that once you lose one of the summons, that's your use of that spell slot effectively over. If you start over with casting a high level animation spell again like Create Greater Undead, you're wasting the surviving 2 summons which you already had along with any buffs on them. Or else, you can struggles along with fewer summons that you could have. To be effective, they all have to survive all of the time since you can't top up the summons. Would it be an interesting idea if you could 'top up' the max spawned undead with a lower tier spell? I.e. you cast Create Greater Undead to create 3 undead, one of them dies, so you cast Animate Undead to summon one more and 'top up' back to 3 summons?

This really pushes me towards the tankier summons, so that I don't lose one of them and waste another spell slot and summon sequencer charges having to replace it.
Firstly, thanks for your detailed feedback so far.

1. I get what you're saying. Ghouls actually are intended to be kind of a squishy, ravenous set of dead. It's possible they need their damage bumped up a little bit to compete, and maybe an increase of durability, at least to help them cope.

2. I like the idea of allowing weaker spells to top off summons, but with the way things are set up currently I am not sure it's possible to do. Let me look into it?
I actually think I love the idea of expendable summons so long as they serve the purpose at the time. Idea might be 4 weaker high damage/AB summons that can get killed quickly as like a fire and forget.

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by WitchyEvil » Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:54 pm

ESF: Necromancy Wizard.

The following is a comparison of a Summon Monster 9 (no ESF Conjure) v. the Tier 7 Mummy Dust.
The streams have varying strengths, but what is consistent is that the Mummy Dust Tier 7 is below the Summon 9.

The Undead are frustratingly weak compared to before.

https://imgur.com/a/LEsybfL
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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:34 pm

WitchyEvil wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:54 pm
ESF: Necromancy Wizard.

The following is a comparison of a Summon Monster 9 (no ESF Conjure) v. the Tier 7 Mummy Dust.
The streams have varying strengths, but what is consistent is that the Mummy Dust Tier 7 is below the Summon 9.

The Undead are frustratingly weak compared to before.

https://imgur.com/a/LEsybfL

All of them are stronger than Mummy Dust was before. Issue is that Summon 9 was also buffed recently and may need to be dialed back pending investigation.

Remember, too, that the elementals don't have nearly the same level of DR or regen as the undead do.

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by cornelius_4 » Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:27 am

The tier 2 abomination also kills xp. At character level 5 when I got it, everything in the Bonefields and the gibberlings all gave 1 xp, except bosses.

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:15 am

cornelius_4 wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:27 am
The tier 2 abomination also kills xp. At character level 5 when I got it, everything in the Bonefields and the gibberlings all gave 1 xp, except bosses.
CR adjustments are made, see if things improve.

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by Waldo52 » Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:42 am

I just noticed the variable numbers for the summons. It's really frustrating to deal with, because some of the streams are balanced around quantity over quality.

Let's look at the skeletons for example. You can wind up with two skeletal champions (or whatever they're called) and two archers, or one champion and one archer. This seems pretty unfair, especially when you look at how powerful a single abomination is.

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by Aog » Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:07 am

Just a quick update on my findings since I've had some time to play with them on live and PGCC. Abomination and Fugue Hound are really good; easily approaching PC tier of strength. The banshees do some really cool things and cast some potent spells; big sonic damage. Really cool to see and thematic. Much enjoy!

The wraiths I'm not really sure what to do with; I maybe have been fighting against the wrong things, but they seem weaker than almost any other stream at the dust level.

Skeletons seem pretty weak, even at mummy dust levels. A four monster summon seems really cool, but I think the weaker stats just don't make up for the numbers at this point. Will keep playing and testing!

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by Deswe » Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:29 am

When going Necro Specialist Wizard (or any other Class/Spec/Domain that boosts UCL) you can have T2 Zombies at Lvl 3. These do cut down on XP though, as I only get 1/4 of XP with the Zombie out (tested in Andunor Sewers).

Might be a similar case as to the T6 Zombies mentioned earlier in this Thread ?

Edit: This appears to be a continous problem, I need to wait 2-3 Levels after unlocking a new Tier before I can use it without losing most of the Mob XP. This is all with the Zombie Stream, don't know about others.
Last edited by Deswe on Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by Scylon » Sun Aug 14, 2022 8:12 am

So I posted to bug as per the following link:

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=38810

Comparing the Fey Prince to these summons, I'm finding with them working like this bug for "quanty" summons, they start to kind of match the power, sort of. However the single summons (vamp, wright) both feel 'OK' but with out a buddy backing them up they fall far behind the fiends.

Also the Abom/beat T6 are miles behind the T7, but the T7 beast is very close to being PC level in power. The Abom "seems" strong (T7) on paper, but testing has shown other then taking a beating its no where near as good as the beast.

Finally the dual T7s feel alright as well. Something about getting more then one makes up for alot it seems.

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by chris a gogo » Sun Aug 14, 2022 9:38 am

The XP issue with the beast stream is better but you are still getting about half of what you get when using zombies.

Scrap this it's fine. my bad.

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by God_In_Action » Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:34 pm

Mummified Priests in the Sibayadi Tombs of the Kings are summoning the new undead (specifically Mummy Templars). I would guess that many NPC casters are now summoning the new undead too. This is making them way more difficult than I expect they are intended to be.

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by Exordius » Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:27 am

Lol people still saying mummy dust sucks compared to conduit even though its obvious to anyone who builds for necromancy that most of the new undead streams are now superior to conduit in every way. :roll:

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by xf1313 » Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:07 am

Exordius wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:27 am
Lol people still saying mummy dust sucks compared to conduit even though its obvious to anyone who builds for necromancy that most of the new undead streams are now superior to conduit in every way. :roll:
From my testing, the necros beats conduct on their cool appearance and rp potentials, 100%. PC are boring compared to those fantastic streams. But PC are still better at survival (for some streams).
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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by Dragonovith » Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:11 am

God_In_Action wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:34 pm
Mummified Priests in the Sibayadi Tombs of the Kings are summoning the new undead (specifically Mummy Templars). I would guess that many NPC casters are now summoning the new undead too. This is making them way more difficult than I expect they are intended to be.
Tomorrow I'll be working on fixing NPCs so they only summon undead tiers appropriate to the dungeon level, I'm only waiting on some code work for that.

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by Scylon » Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:55 am

Exordius wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:27 am
Lol people still saying mummy dust sucks compared to conduit even though its obvious to anyone who builds for necromancy that most of the new undead streams are now superior to conduit in every way. :roll:
We did some rather hard testing of these on the test server and found only the hound could compete with PC. It was close and that was pre today's nerf. Also the PC summoner didn't use and ESF: Conj vs the necros full ESF: necro. That said,

PC should be toned down, not undead toned up. I expect after the dust settles we may see a great planer de powering, as anything gate/PC/warlock/BG level still way out classes anything else. Epically PC because it is like having 2 warlocks at the same time.

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by Exordius » Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:03 am

We did some rather hard testing of these on the test server and found only the hound could compete with PC. It was close and that was pre today's nerf. Also the PC summoner didn't use and ESF: Conj vs the necros full ESF: necro.
I don't know, granted i was only able to test three of the streams but both the highest tier zombies and especially the highest tier mummies were definitely dealing and taking damage at least as well as my conduit was. But that was the other day and if there has been a nerf then that kinda throws a wrench into those calculations. Speaking of, would it be possible to make it so one can get all the undead streams on the pgcc, i would like to test the rest of them?

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by Scylon » Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:21 am

Exordius wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:03 am
We did some rather hard testing of these on the test server and found only the hound could compete with PC. It was close and that was pre today's nerf. Also the PC summoner didn't use and ESF: Conj vs the necros full ESF: necro.
I don't know, granted i was only able to test three of the streams but both the highest tier zombies and especially the highest tier mummies were definitely dealing and taking damage at least as well as my conduit was. But that was the other day and if there has been a nerf then that kinda throws a wrench into those calculations. Speaking of, would it be possible to make it so one can get all the undead streams on the pgcc, i would like to test the rest of them?
We tested basically everything. PC was our "end boss" :P. Should have tested BG pet as well, might do that tonight.

Any hoot, you can indeed get all the streams. If your character was made a few days ago or more, you'll need to relevel to get them.

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by chris a gogo » Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:44 am

So ive been testing three streams on the live servers, zombie, beast and abomination.

Zombie stream.
This is the standard, mobs once buffed with the arcane sequencer have a reasonable survivability and draw alot of agro from the caster with the aura effect, useful verse big mobs as they really help contain them.

Beast stream.
The tier 7 summon is great buffed with the druidic sequencer great damage a big HP pool and concealment make it very good again melee mobs but with it being a single target mages slaughter it, alot are saying how it's very strong and it is but it also requires more micromanagement and protection when mobs have mages in the mix, ive watched it get beaten by the default mobs in the duergar fortress when they spawn more than one mage in a group, it also has some pathing issues due to it's size meaning melee mobs can and do manage to block it off from running past them to target the mages.

Abomination stream.

WOW the top tier 7 summon is a true monster slightly less damage than the fugue hound but the damage immunity coupled with the concealment from a lesser arcane sequencer makes it a killing machine par excellence, it suffers the same issue as the fugue hound against mages but the DI means the melee and ranged mobs are only pecking at it and it can survive far more easily with less likely hood of anything but the mages doing real harm to it. Less pathing issues than the fugue hound making it easier to use when you need it to take out specific targets first.

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by Scylon » Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:33 am

So going over where the Undead is floating (because I just love this update :P) I wanted to give a basic thought on each one:

Abomination - Tank and spank, High damage and HP/reduction
- This guy I feel is spot on? Does the job good, doesn't feel OP due to the fact it is slow and can be killed quickely.

Beast - Tank and spank, Highest damage and defences
- This one still needs to be toned down. It is the new PC and will beat anything in a fight. Needs less conceal overall. Like half.

Drowned - Mid damage/defence
- This one is in the middle for offence and defence. Works well for what it is.

Ghost - Mid to high damage/debuff/casting and high defence
Feedback - This one is rather strong and needs to be tweked. I think maybe this should be a casting/ranged stream with debuffs?

Ghoul - High DPS/Low defence
Feedback - I think this should have even lower defence and a bit more AB. a fire and forget stream that can can be killed quick.

Mummies - Low DPS/High defence
Feedback - This one is kind of spot on. its basicly where it was before + a better spell on the t7.

Skeleton - Low Damage/Low Defence
Feedback - This one just sucked. They are weak and do very little damage. I think they need more AB and more damage, especially on the archer. Thinking like a longer sustain ghoul without the speed or big hits.

Vampires - Medium damage/defence and ok sustain
Feedback - This one is "ok"ish but I feel it isn't a good choice because it needs knockdown or something.

Wights - High damage/medium defences and debuffer
Feedback - This one probably also could stand for a defence nerf. its damage is really good, with knockdown and 2 on hit debuffs. maybe transfer its knockdown to the vampire. The T7 even has an AoE damage aura.

Wraith - Low damage/medium defence.
Feedback - I think these guys could stand to have more sneak attack to find their neish. Other then that, I have found them to be ok at the job the do, but they do feel like a sneak attack critter.

Zombies - Med damage/defence
Feedback - These guys are spot on. they have decent offence and defence. Not as good as mummy, but pump more damage.

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:44 am

Scylon wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:33 am
So going over where the Undead is floating (because I just love this update :P) I wanted to give a basic thought on each one:

Abomination - Tank and spank, High damage and HP/reduction
- This guy I feel is spot on? Does the job good, doesn't feel OP due to the fact it is slow and can be killed quickely.

Beast - Tank and spank, Highest damage and defences
- This one still needs to be toned down. It is the new PC and will beat anything in a fight. Needs less conceal overall. Like half.

Drowned - Mid damage/defence
- This one is in the middle for offence and defence. Works well for what it is.

Ghost - Mid to high damage/debuff/casting and high defence
Feedback - This one is rather strong and needs to be tweked. I think maybe this should be a casting/ranged stream with debuffs?

Ghoul - High DPS/Low defence
Feedback - I think this should have even lower defence and a bit more AB. a fire and forget stream that can can be killed quick.

Mummies - Low DPS/High defence
Feedback - This one is kind of spot on. its basicly where it was before + a better spell on the t7.

Skeleton - Low Damage/Low Defence
Feedback - This one just sucked. They are weak and do very little damage. I think they need more AB and more damage, especially on the archer. Thinking like a longer sustain ghoul without the speed or big hits.

Vampires - Medium damage/defence and ok sustain
Feedback - This one is "ok"ish but I feel it isn't a good choice because it needs knockdown or something.

Wights - High damage/medium defences and debuffer
Feedback - This one probably also could stand for a defence nerf. its damage is really good, with knockdown and 2 on hit debuffs. maybe transfer its knockdown to the vampire. The T7 even has an AoE damage aura.

Wraith - Low damage/medium defence.
Feedback - I think these guys could stand to have more sneak attack to find their neish. Other then that, I have found them to be ok at the job the do, but they do feel like a sneak attack critter.

Zombies - Med damage/defence
Feedback - These guys are spot on. they have decent offence and defence. Not as good as mummy, but pump more damage.
Thanks, very helpful.

I try to avoid spellcaster summons because their AI can be really poor. You'll notice I had to give the vampire matriarch autoquicken because it minimized the effect of that.

I recently did a skeleton buff but I don't think it's hit the servers yet. I'd like to take another look at this by the end of the week.

Will look into the others.

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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by WitchyEvil » Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:55 am

Server Crossing:
Crossing servers eats up your undead.

Surface and C&P: (not an issue in the UD)
Vampire Knight will spawn OR Vampire Matriarch but NOT both. This is only a recent issue, did not have it a few hours ago, tested it on multiple castings.
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Re: [Feedback Megathread]: Undead Stream Expansion

Post by -XXX- » Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:15 am

Scylon wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:33 am
Abomination - Tank and spank, High damage and HP/reduction
- This guy I feel is spot on? Does the job good, doesn't feel OP due to the fact it is slow and can be killed quickely.

Beast - Tank and spank, Highest damage and defences
- This one still needs to be toned down. It is the new PC and will beat anything in a fight. Needs less conceal overall. Like half.
Once we start talking about tier 7 undead, it'd be good to keep in mind that they require 1x/day mummy dust use and kinda compete with PC because of it.

AB: I've been able to push the Beast to 45AB and abomination to 49AB just with empowered bull's strength and NE burst on a CL27 ESF:necro. Then again we're comparing 5 APR here vs 9 APR at 42AB from PC, so maybe it's not that OP.
DEF: The abomination is a little too squishy IMO. The beast is ok, still melts faster than PC (superior AC is king - even over undead immunities).

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