Languages Schmanguages

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magistrasa
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Languages Schmanguages

Post by magistrasa » Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:06 pm

I have thoughts about languages. Be forewarned, as a lot of the thoughts I'm going to share may seem somewhat self-contradictory. In this write-up I will go over the current implementation of languages, how I see that interact with roleplay, where I feel its shortcomings are, and what I wish it looked like in the future.

Available Languages
As categorized by the game, there are 15 "common" languages which can be learned by phrasebooks and are starting languages for various races or given freely by different classes. They are Abyssal, Celestial, Draconic, Dwarven, Elvish, Giant, Gnoll, Gnomish, Goblin, Halfling, Infernal, Orcish, Sylvan, Undercommon, and Xanalress.

There are also 7 "exotic" languages, which are learned exclusively by classes or by very rare races. These cannot be learned via phrasebooks, and one must spend a number of levels in a class, or a Normal award, to know the language. They are Animal Language, Deep Speech, Druidic, Loross, Roushoum, (Drow) Sign Language, and Thieves' Cant.

I think our categorizations here are missing a step in between "common" and "exotic," where a lot of the more uncommon planar languages could fit. To see Elvish on par in commonality with conversational Celestial seems strange to me. Likewise, it's odd that Drow Sign Language is technically even more difficult to learn than the Eldritch tongue.

Furthermore, there are languages included and excluded in our system that seems rather odd. The gnolls get their own language, but Primordial is excluded. Sign Language exists, yet Drow maintain an exclusive monopoly on it. We get Roushoum and Loross for the hyper-evolved pseudo-humans, but no regional dialects for the Mazticans and Kara-Turans. I don't mean this as an admonishment, I should clarify - I understand that implementing additional languages would undoubtedly be a huge PITA, and I'm sure a lot of what exists is just built off of work done in the past which no one really has the emotional fortitude to endure the process of enacting changes upon. Frankly, it's amazing that we have so many options to choose from in the first place. I do feel compelled to lay everything out, however, because the implementation as it stands leads to some... odd impressions.

Language Usage
What's the point of a language? Well, let's look at how they're used in-game.

Of mechanical relevance, they're used in runic dweomercrafting, where the person enchanting a piece of equipment must know the language inscribed in order to utilize the rune.

But, speaking towards the broader experience - they're used to exclude The Others.

Almost every race gets a free language, solidifying their identity. Oftentimes this racial language will slip into conversation, even among others outside of that racial group, to make private comments intended only for the fluent - those members of the race who are in the in-group, or those who bothered to learn. Very rarely is a special language used with the purpose of "including" others. By its nature, a language limits the amount of people who can engage with what you're saying. Knowing a group's language gives you access to these private conversations, and puts you on the inside of this exclusionary tactic. To put it bluntly, the more languages you know, the more roleplay you are privy to.

This isn't a "bad" thing, I don't think. In many situations, I've found it elevated a scene, bringing a stronger sense of anticipation and immersion. But of course, the consequence is that it makes languages and the methods of learning them highly sought-after. It creates a feeling of frustration, when you see words spoken that you can't understand. The natural response to this is to yearn for a way to bridge that gap, and get yourself in the know. Although, when that's impossible, it's easy to slip into a sense of resentment towards the exclusionary group.

Language & Race
There are three "tiers," shall we say, of racial language: Basic, Uncommon, and Exotic. Depending on the race, you can start with up to 3 additional languages just from heritage alone.
- Basic racial languages are (generally speaking) common, learnable, and spoken by the base races. They are Dwarven, Elvish, Gnomish, Halfling, and Undercommon.
- Uncommon racial languages are technically spoken by a base race and can be found in phrasebooks (with one exception), but the race is a bit more rare. They are Draconic, Goblin, Xanalress, and Sign Language. Notably, Sign Language is granted exclusively to Drow, and cannot be learned via phrasebook.
- Exotic racial languages are spoken by races that one must spend an award for. Some can be learned with a phrasebook, while others can't. They are Abyssal, Animal Language, Celestial, Giant, Gnoll, Infernal, Loross, Roushoum, and Sylvan.

I only really have one complaint on this list: I think it's silly that you can learn Roushoum, the language of the alien and secretive Deep Imaskari, whose existence went unknown to the world until their recent reemergence... but Drow Sign Language, a rudimentary code of hand signals and gestures intended for simple combat instructions, is beyond anyone's ability to teach and learn.

Moreover, it bothers me that humans don't get to know any additional languages. I think it would be great if regional dialects were an option you could choose on character creation, like "Kara-Turan" or "Zakharan" or "Maztican" - you don't even really need to get specific, just some shared continental root would do. Or, maybe on character creation, if your Intelligence stat meets a certain threshold, anyone can select an additional "common" language to start with! If something like that were in place, I'd also love if Sign Language were taken off the default Drow language list and simply tucked in as a selectable language, because it doesn't make sense to me that EVERY Drow knows the raiders' secret handshake kill signal. But maybe Sign Language matters too much to me and I should stop talking about it.

Language & Class
Here's a breakdown of which languages you can learn by taking which classes:
Abyssal - Blackguard, Cleric, Hexblade, Warlock
Animal Language - Druid, Ranger, Shaman
Celestial - Cleric, Harper
Deep Speech - Warlock
Draconic - RDD, Warlock, Wizard
Druidic - Druid
Infernal - Blackguard, Cleric, Warlock
Sylvan - Druid, Shaman, Warlock
Thieves' Cant - Rogue

Oftentimes a class's bonus language is granted on the very first level, granting fluency overnight. The only exceptions to that are Ranger, which grants Animal Language at level 6, and Rogue, which grants Thieves' Cant at level 7.

Generally speaking, I dislike how you can suddenly become fluent in a language the minute you take a class level. Mostly because it's such a stark contrast to the arduous process of language learning that everyone else must undertake. I would prefer if the free languages granted by these classes were more like an open language slot and a hefty amount of progress in learning the language, or maybe every level they take in the class grants them something like +10-20% towards learning the language - something that makes the process a gradual slope, rather than a sudden epiphany.

And then there's Loremaster.

Loremaster
Every level of Loremaster grants you an additional language. At your 5th Loremaster level, you can learn a language that's unteachable via phrasebooks, one which you would typically only be able to learn by investing in a class or being born a certain race.

I hate this.

Not only does this needle at my aforementioned disdain for epiphanic fluency, it also cements Loremaster, among all its other myriad goodies, as The Roleplay Class. Like I stated prior, linguistic fluency opens you up to more avenues of roleplay. By sharing a language, you are better able to meaningfully interact with more people by having access to their "in-group." Conversely, the ability to cross the barriers someone else is trying to put up thwarts their ability to create an "in-group" - a concept which I do genuinely believe has value in a roleplay server. Intrigue cannot exist without secrecy and privacy. When everyone speaks Xanalress, no one does.

Learning Languages
Aside from genetics and profession, you can learn many languages in-game via phrasebooks. Well, not exactly the phrasebooks themselves, but by having a phrasebook in your inventory and listening to other people speak in that language. Your Intelligence stat determines how many languages you can learn, and also how quickly you learn them. Lore plays a related role in the process by identifying the languages you hear, and helping you translate phrases despite your lack of fluency.

I don't know what calculation is used to determine how quickly you learn a language, but I can say with absolute certainty that it is too god damn slow.

I have never learned a language naturally in-game. I've gotten very close with my high-INT, high-Lore Wizard who spent unhealthy amounts of time around Drow, but even then I only got to 98%. I think I played that character for close to two years. I'm not saying it should be a lightning-quick process, but as someone who is actually tri-lingual, the amount of time it takes is completely absurd.

The Real World
Learning a language in real life is deceptively easy.

Yes, there's all kinds of factors that go into how well you learn a language - age and brain elasticity, environmental influences, prior exposure to languages, et cetera - but generally speaking, if you put your mind to it and really try, you can get to a conversational level in just about any language in as quickly as a couple months. Your pronunciation might be cringe-inducing and you might not be so good at reading, but you can have a pleasant conversation with a native speaker where you can express your thoughts with limited restrictions in about 3 months of study - and once you have a grasp on that, the rest of the pieces fall into place pretty quickly.

Additionally, languages in real life all have a certain degree of overlap. English bears a strong resemblance to German, and the romance languages are notoriously similar to one another. With fluency in one language in a given group, you can pretty easily navigate the difficulties of its related languages, even if you've never spent a minute studying them.

Anecdotally, I'm fluent in English, Japanese, and Portuguese. My fluency in Portuguese helps me converse with Spanish, Italian, and even French-speakers that come to me at work, provided we both talk very slowly and point at the things we're talking about. My fluency in Japanese doesn't help me understand spoken Mandarin literally at all, but I can read and recognize some of the written language well enough to navigate a menu or find directions. Also, I taught Japanese to myself. I didn't touch a lesson guide and didn't meet a native speaker of the language until I was four years into my studies. According to that native speaker, I was already close to fluent at that stage. My studies consisted of making flash cards to study key words from the dictionary, and watching way too much anime.

To relate both these points back to Arelith - I think the current language learning system has a few flaws in its dynamic, especially when comparing it to reality. My first thought is that it takes too long to learn a language in-game. Sitting in a language lesson for hours might net you as little as 3% progress. I could literally learn a language in real life faster than I learn a language in Arelith.

Furthermore, Arelith doesn't recognize related languages in a group when accounting for fluency. I remember RedRopes said something towards this end while he was working on languages, suggesting the intention for some crossover fluency. I think that's a great idea, and I hope it gets implemented sometime.

Although perhaps most egregious of all - the uselessness of phrasebooks. If you have a phrasebook in your inventory 24 hours a day, why can't you simply learn by reading it? It doesn't make sense that you are wholly dependent on listening to other people talk in order to learn a language. Likewise, it doesn't make sense that you can't learn the language WITHOUT a phrasebook. So much of language learning is done simply by listening and connecting what you hear with what you see. My husband spent two weeks with me in Brazil recently and went in not knowing a single word in Portuguese, and just by listening to conversation he came out of it able to understand a surprising amount of simple words and phrases.

Rather than speaking and reading being dependent on one another for any progress at all, I think it would be great if phrasebooks and lessons could represent two different ways of learning which, when combined, accelerate the process tremendously.

Closing Thoughts
Languages are a great way to give a character or group a sense of shared identity. It's difficult to balance the human drive for knowledge and inclusion against the value provided in the distinct identity engendered by a language's inherent exclusivity. I feel as though the implementation of languages on Arelith suffers from a weird yo-yo effect, where they're too easy to learn for some people, and too difficult for others. Not only is there that inconsistency in experience, but the language learning process overall doesn't reflect reality, which only adds to the frustration of the system.

It would be amazing if every character had some kind of 8-hour cool down ability that you could use on a phrasebook to pick up +1-3% fluency, maybe dependant on INT. Maybe increase the rate of language learning from other people, or keep it the same, I'm not sure.

I would also love to see feats that cater to aspiring linguists. Maybe a feat could eliminate the need for phrasebooks and let you learn any language, including those that ordinarily can't be learned due to the absence of phrasebooks. Maybe instead of awards granting different tiers of language, there could be general feats that grant a common, uncommon, and exotic language in ascending tiers. Maybe some feats could increase the amount of languages you're able to know, or accelerate the process.

I also want Loremaster to be less awesome. Seriously, I feel so cheesy for putting it in every single one of my builds. It also seems like every third person I run into has Loremaster levels, which is even more evidence in my eyes that Loremaster has had it too good for too long.

But maybe I'm crazy and wrong and my opinions are bad! These are all my thoughts (or at least most of them and I am too tired to type anything more) - now I'm interested in hearing what the community has to say. I'm especially interested in hearing from the people who agree with me! Everyone else can feel free to withhold commentary.

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Re: Languages Schmanguages

Post by Nekonecro » Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:28 pm

I consider Loremaster to be the "toys" class and love it just for that.
As for language learning in real life, I have to disagree with how easy it is. I'm rather inept at them and had issues through school mixing my Welsh and German lessons together and answering tests in some horrid abomination of the two.
To me it's one of those skills where you have a natural ability for it or not and have to work on it with varying degrees of success.
Myself being a big failure at it XD.

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Re: Languages Schmanguages

Post by Ork » Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:34 pm

My detest for language lessons knows no bounds, but I also think if we're going to tier languages we should give them some value other than saying bwael jaluk or dweomercrafting.

Now that we have the ability to write in languages, let's start putting them in our dungeons for lore reasons. How cool would it be to learn abyssal and be able to read some of the markings in the Sibayad crypts, or go to the elven dungeon and read in elvish who died there and why.

I do like the idea of loremaster losing their languages. It is beyond cheese that 5 minutes before a level-up they're scratching their head about undercommon and just have an epiphany in those few minutes to master the language. Give them a % boost and leave it at that.

I'd especially love for there to be ways in the module to learn language besides the most reviled activity I can think of - group language lessons. Reading some ancient tablet with celestial yields a 5% increase on failure or 10% on success. Make them like discovery adventure XP where you can't continue to trigger the %. I don't know. Lots of work though.

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Re: Languages Schmanguages

Post by -XXX- » Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:45 pm

While racial languages giving races identity is cool, there's simply too many of them and their excessive use can result in unintentional gatekeeping.

For example, imagine an elf insisting on speaking only elven, resorting to common only when absolutely necessary and with a great measure of disdain.
While a perfectly reasonable IC concept, let's take a look at what this actually means on an OOC level - everything that the character says gets scrambled into an illegible wall of text for players of every character who does not share a cultural identity with the speaker and unless the speech is being frequently intertwined with rich emotes, it can be quite challenging to discern even such basic elements of communication as whether the interaction is being friendly, hostile, a request, an imperative or an inquiry.

Before long, the player using the language this way limits their character's interactions to the members of their own race and in some more extreme cases (i.e.: "my character do not common so good") these characters can be regarded as functionally illiterate by outsiders.

It only imposes needless OOC hurdles on other players just to retain the spotlight for a little while longer.
Personally, I have very little patience for this* and I know that I'm not the only one who feels that way.

*along with characters being portrayed having a very strong accent or a speech impediment - basically anything that needlessly challenges me as a player with deciphering what's actually being said, especially when my character is being addressed directly.
Last edited by -XXX- on Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Languages Schmanguages

Post by xf1313 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:52 pm

Arelith consider 100% as full fluency, a scary concept. I dare not declaring that I have full fluency over English or Mandarin (there are way too many words, idioms, historic backgrounds, ancient scripts... the list goes on)

However I do agree with you that language learning can use a little boost, we are playing a game after all. I’d prefer to eavesdrop into conversations than sit though lessons to learn languages. (Thank you dwarves for keep talking in Dwarven non stop in Brog! No thanks to Draconic /Hin/etc...speaking people, I cannot find you)

Some languages are so rarely used, and players would feel less desired to learn them...like if you put Gnoll, Dwarven, Juton, Gnome and ask people to pick, Most likely no one goes for Gnoll or Gnome. I wish people make use of the languages, so us eavesdroppers have a chance XD.
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Re: Languages Schmanguages

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:01 pm

People learn gnoll and gnome specifically because few people know it, they use it as their secret spy language within their group.

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Re: Languages Schmanguages

Post by Tikin » Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:55 pm

I love the idea of a separated learning system, like you said with phrasebooks giving a slow possibility to help (perhaps to a certain limited point?). No idea how hard it would be to implement, but I actually think it would be really cool to only be able to fully learn the language by going both oral and writen learnings (like 50% talking and 50% reading).

I agree that trying to learn a language presently is tedious as long as you want to rp it a bit and if you don't have a close PC around yours, fluent in the language, to help the process. I learnt one language super fast (gnomish) due to a close pc (almost too fast), and on the opposite I learn elven language super slow 'cause no close PC, so, language lessons ... These language lessons often turn out quickly into a weird soup where everyone is speaking a different language for the sake of everyone learning a little something, but it feels both unimmersive and tedious to follow.

I would love if the rate you can learn was going slower as your mastery in a language increase. Because, yes, reaching 100% seems weird, and frankly some PC should not even be able to reach 100% with common xD.

Concerning Lore Master, I agree that 5 bonus languages may be too much ... 2 would seem more reasonnable, perhaps with one bonus for people going for the "tutor" perk. 5 Lore Master Levels are often already too much benefit without even any bonus Language imo.

I have no problem with chars speaking exclusively one language for rp reasons. On the opposite, while I can understand how one think it "cool" or "nice" to include accents in their writings, I confirm that it doesn't help people like me who don't speak english as a native language ...

The language writing has not yet much been used in game, but I agree that this change was a really cool one, and am sure it will with time be used in fantastic ways by devs and players alike :)

Love this thread by the way :kiss:

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Re: Languages Schmanguages

Post by Xerah » Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:22 pm

Something like 0.x% progress per tick you have a single language book in your inventory (keep extra in a bag and swap as you want) instead of only learning while listening. Much less reason to mass gather for groups.
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Re: Languages Schmanguages

Post by Griefmaker » Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:33 pm

Xerah wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:22 pm
Something like 0.x% progress per tick you have a single language book in your inventory (keep extra in a bag and swap as you want) instead of only learning while listening. Much less reason to mass gather for groups.
That would be awesome! Passive learning, which makes sense since our characters would be doing that on their own.

Obviously, as in RL, one would learn a language significantly faster when they hear others speak it.

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Re: Languages Schmanguages

Post by Itikar » Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:45 pm

Drow sign language is hardly rudimentary, and it is very well guarded by its users. It can certainly be taught, but so do any of the other languages, like Roushoum or Druidic. What the restrictions aim to achieve is to reduce the number of people learning them, because realistically speakers would not teach it, and might even actively murder those trying to make the languages more widespread. It certainly would be the case for Drow Sign Language. For more information on it, the 1992 edition of Drow of the Underdark details further some of its features and stresses how secretive the drow are of it. So, no, having it taught or easily learnable would not really help the setting or make any sense.

To be fair, Drow Sign Language is already more accessible than Roushoum for example, because you can learn it with an award, unlike Roushoum. Personally I would remove Drow Sign Language from the language award list, and leave it only for loremasters.

Additional language, including additional sign languages other than thieves cant or drow sign, would certainly always be welcome of course.

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Re: Languages Schmanguages

Post by Eyeliner » Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:55 pm

A tactical sign language might be cool. Maybe high level fighters get it automatically and can teach it to others (reflecting it's something you'd learn in a military, yes I know other classes would join militaries but it's just an idea).

Also I have to add, I don't see speaking in languages as gatekeeping at all. Isn't one purpose of them to be able to have semi-private conversations in public or give the sense that yes, these elves (or whatever) are of a different culture? It's easier than ever to have access to a language you normally wouldn't so even that is completely insecure and mostly for flavor. I think it's a feature that exclusion happens, not a problem, and if anything it's incentive to learn a language to be able to spy on them (especially if you're smart enough not to advertise you know it).
Xerah wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:22 pm
Something like 0.x% progress per tick you have a single language book in your inventory (keep extra in a bag and swap as you want) instead of only learning while listening. Much less reason to mass gather for groups.
Might be a nice little feature if carrying a phrasebook in appropriate racial settlements got you a little bonus to reflect hearing NPCs, visible or not.

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Re: Languages Schmanguages

Post by Flower Power » Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:02 pm

I literally just want my Halruaan character to be able to speak Loross so he can complain about the benighted state of literally all of Faerun outside of Halruaa/New Netheril, and I will fight anyone who tries to make it so I no longer can do so with a stick.
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Re: Languages Schmanguages

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:07 pm

Many moons ago, the Myon Scouts under Daedin Angthalion developed short-hand to communicate tactics as well as scout sightings.

I welcome any and all groups to develop their own secret language in-game, rather than rely on -mechanics.

I share many similar concerns with the OP. The proliferation of planar tongues bothers me to no end. I've always wanted regional languages in the game (and to me, given the fact Humans make up 2k+ of all characters, think we really really need to finally develop Regional Backgrounds as an actual thing).

Language lessons are the devil. Surfacers knowning Xanalress makes me weep.

Knowing languages used to be cool, now it's everywhere. It's lost a lot of magic.
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Re: Languages Schmanguages

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:28 pm

I like the idea of percentage gain through hourly ticks, but I still think there should be at least a minor incentive to interact with others. What I would like to see gone for the most part is mass language gatherings of many languages spoken in complete chaos and half the present people afk, if it wasnt for the different colors, people wouldnt be able to tell which word is from what language. this is meta. I hate it.

Lets say for example, that the hourly tick gives language progress of .1%
If the character heard 5 chat sentences from a fluent speaker of the language within 7 RL days then the tick gain is .2%.

That's on top of my head. Probably something like that, but more polished. This is raw still.
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Re: Languages Schmanguages

Post by Morgy » Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:40 am

Loremaster is great fun to play, but I have to agree, the sudden mass fluency of languages over a few levels is really odd to RP. I would instead allow bonus languages to be learned at an increased rate, as it would be far less jarring.

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Re: Languages Schmanguages

Post by Rei_Jin » Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:00 am

The language system, as it stands, is pretty robust.

I'm saying this as a player who got a character to have full (100%) fluency in all teachable languages with 6 months of play.

Yes, that character has Loremaster levels, and is a Wizard (so high Int).

Yes, I play a lot.

But, I managed it, and with very few points coming from group events.

Could it be improved? Absolutely.

IMO, if you are in a town where a language is commonly spoken (so, Halfling and Gnome in Bendir Dale, Dwarven in Brogdenstein, Undercommon in the Hub, etc.) and you have a phrasebook OF THAT LANGUAGE IN YOUR INVENTORY, and no others out (in a book bag is fine), and you are not in "combat mode" (ie, haven;t rolled initiative, no combat music, etc), then you should get a percentage of that language progression even if there are no other player characters around, as the NPCs would be speaking it.

Go to a goodly aligned temple, can do the same with Celestial. Lawful evil temple, infernal. Chaotic evil temple, abyssal.

Maybe the Devil's Table is Xanalress, Greyport is Dwarven (duergar), the Sharps and the Half-Orc Camp is Orcish (Orogs?), Myon and the Elven Quarter is Elven, etc, etc.

You get the idea.

This, in itself, would encourage people to hang out in locations and roleplay, without the messy interactions that being terrible in a language provides most of the time, and the annoying thing that group language lessons can be.

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Re: Languages Schmanguages

Post by MissEvelyn » Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:04 am

Rei_Jin wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:00 am
The language system, as it stands, is pretty robust.

I'm saying this as a player who got a character to have full (100%) fluency in all teachable languages with 6 months of play.

Yes, that character has Loremaster levels, and is a Wizard (so high Int).

Yes, I play a lot.

But, I managed it, and with very few points coming from group events.

Could it be improved? Absolutely.

IMO, if you are in a town where a language is commonly spoken (so, Halfling and Gnome in Bendir Dale, Dwarven in Brogdenstein, Undercommon in the Hub, etc.) and you have a phrasebook OF THAT LANGUAGE IN YOUR INVENTORY, and no others out (in a book bag is fine), and you are not in "combat mode" (ie, haven;t rolled initiative, no combat music, etc), then you should get a percentage of that language progression even if there are no other player characters around, as the NPCs would be speaking it.

Go to a goodly aligned temple, can do the same with Celestial. Lawful evil temple, infernal. Chaotic evil temple, abyssal.

Maybe the Devil's Table is Xanalress, Greyport is Dwarven (duergar), the Sharps and the Half-Orc Camp is Orcish (Orogs?), Myon and the Elven Quarter is Elven, etc, etc.

You get the idea.

This, in itself, would encourage people to hang out in locations and roleplay, without the messy interactions that being terrible in a language provides most of the time, and the annoying thing that group language lessons can be.
+1 All this!

I've often wondered why the Goblins who cry out battle cries (or Goblin profanities?) in-game don't actually speak in Goblin. It would be so amazing if NPCs utilized the language system.


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Re: Languages Schmanguages

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:11 am

Rei_Jin wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:00 am
IMO, if you are in a town where a language is commonly spoken (so, Halfling and Gnome in Bendir Dale, Dwarven in Brogdenstein, Undercommon in the Hub, etc.) and you have a phrasebook OF THAT LANGUAGE IN YOUR INVENTORY, and no others out (in a book bag is fine), and you are not in "combat mode" (ie, haven;t rolled initiative, no combat music, etc), then you should get a percentage of that language progression even if there are no other player characters around, as the NPCs would be speaking it.
I like it. It offers some level of passive income (but not complete freebe language and still encourages interactions) and also, I dont know if that's what you meant but I would like it a lot if people would actually be required to store all their phrasebooks in a bag except the one they want to use and no progression would be gain if there's more than 1 phrasebook in the inventory (bags are fine). It would help preventing mass chaotic gatherings because people would only be able to progress in 1 language at a time at least. It also kind of makes sense that it's inefficient to try study two or more different languages in the same 'lesson'. If we also add some passive income in thematic places then it should not be a terrible nerf.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Preserver
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Re: Languages Schmanguages

Post by Preserver » Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:38 am

Whilst I do agree on the fact that language learning could be more fun I am not sure what system would better work to represent it as things are now. I do not find it that disruptive that it'd require a quick change.

I do like the idea of feats that cater to linguists though!
Maybe even taking languages as feats? Or accelerating language learning by way of feat?

And honestly... please do not make Loremaster less awesome.
Right now Loremaster is the only alternative to play a PC that is -just- a scholar, with no additional magical influence or arcane studies save for what is strictly necessary to justify the magic-equivalent discoveries. Please do not nerf Loremaster's awesomeness :C !

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Re: Languages Schmanguages

Post by -XXX- » Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:24 am

I don't like how characters abruptly lose the ability to learn forever once they reach their language cap.
I wish there was some way to forget languages in favour of new ones.

TBH, I wish languages were just skills.

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Re: Languages Schmanguages

Post by magistrasa » Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:16 pm

Please do not nerf Loremaster's awesomeness :C
Loremaster can still be the cool scholar RP class even without its 5 languages, 2 ESF cookies, +3 CL, and bonus AB/AC/HP/saves in the span of 5 levels. It can tone down some (or all) of these features and still be awesome.

But this thread isn't about Loremaster, thank God. For my health I will limit Loremaster commentary to their languages going forward.

Towards the discussed suggestion of passive language proficiency gain - I had mixed feelings at first, but then I thought about it, and I actually kinda like it. I think it'd go a long way in shortening the absurd amount of time it currently takes to learn a language, but my initial concern was that it would be too uninteractive. I like the idea of linguistic proficiency requiring active effort to improve, and saw passive income as being too "boring" - but if it was tied to locations, especially lesser-utilized locations, I think that'd definitely qualify as active effort in order to seek out and linger in those places, while also encouraging roleplay in underutilized venues. Plus, people would finally start to learn languages one at a time if they had to put all their damn books away! The way the current system encourages linguistic multitasking is another pet peeve of mine.

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Re: Languages Schmanguages

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:51 pm

I'll just quote myself from the Loremaster thread a year and a half ago
AstralUniverse wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:44 am
This might come off as a really unpopular opinion so I'm ready with improved expertise on.

Why does a character pick a 5 lvl class and speaks FIVE languages out of the blue? This is nuts and I think it's way too much.
Turns out Loremaster is a pretty good class, because it's been a year and a half that it slowly crept it's way into good builds (even some powerbuilds) and is still a magnificent kit for it's skill selection, lore boost, 1 ac/ab boost and it's increased CL on scrolls/wands.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Languages Schmanguages

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:04 pm

Not to mention it also offers scrying. When scrying was casters only and required 3 sub-optimal feats scryganking was less of a thing. With loremaster it's a 2 feat investment that gives a lot of other benefits. If anything on loremaster is changed, I'd remove scrying from it before touching languages.

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Re: Languages Schmanguages

Post by Subtext » Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:18 pm

It should be hard restricted to casters, aka requiring arcane or divine spellcaating.

Things like scry or yoink offer too much tangible benefits and it makes zero sense to cast powerful spells like that as a mundane character.

"How can you scry? You're a troglodyte barbarian!"
"Idk man, I read a lot"

Likewise, there are too many things that insanely benefit martial classes. My non optimal human rogue can hit 50+ AB like that with minor self buffing AND gets saves through spellcraft AND what equals a free ESF lore to get those level 9 scrolls.

It should be purely be taken as a class for casters to remove some feat strain in order to pick things like scry without having to waste three feats...or to make scrolls more useful for buffs without having to use spell slots at the overall expense of some caster level. And frankly, mundanes don't deserve the cookies.

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Re: Languages Schmanguages

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:42 pm

Two things that jump out to me and made me want to comment.

One, thank you Ork, I thought I was the only Arelith player who thought language lessons were ridiculous. Learning a language should take time and interactive RP, not just a large room of folks watching Netflix or whatever with a few emotes hot keyed if they still care about xp ticks while someone prattles on in a given language, all while completely lagging up the server. My solution would be to make it so that language learning turns off if there are more than 5 people within ear shot.


Two, the loremaster insta language thing was fine when loremaster was a bad mechanical class. Gar did a lot of really good things for the server but changing Loremaster into a powerful dip was not one of them. My solution would be to invent a time machine and stop this from ever happening, because I think it's too late to just revert it at this point.

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