Arelith

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=38774

I'm afraid I'm going to have to be blunt about this.
This is a -TERRIBLE IDEA-
Already there are issues of people standing next to their own bashed corpses and not respecting death in their RP.
Things like "Kill me, my god will just revive me" or words to that effect are common enough.

Along with this it also creates a problem in regards to Underdark/Surface raiding where one raid can be repelled by a defending force
then the next day once ressurect sickness has passed they can raid again and the defending force is unable to respond due to being restricted by these 48 hours.

I don't believe increasing the time to 48 hours will result in less pvp. Instead there will be a notion of a "free day" where the opposing force is out of consideration.
Perhaps it's not giving other players the benefit of the doubt but frankly this is a game formost and people want to win.
Using the rules to gain an advantage is not beyond the scope of thought when trying to achieve such.

There is a far heavier weight on the victor of the pvp to respect the ruling than there is on the loser in my personal experiences on the server.

This might be workable, were there a firm commitment from the DM team to crack down on anyone who abuses their extended window of immunity.
Instead, however, the playerbase has been told that the situation will be treated with more leniency, not less, which reads like an invitation to go stir trouble while on pvp cooldown.
It is also unreasonable to consider the team to be all-seeing and onmi-present, they're not.

Nekonecro wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:21 pm

Along with this it also creates a problem in regards to Underdark/Surface raiding where one raid can be repelled by a defending force
then the next day once ressurect sickness has passed they can raid again and the defending force is unable to respond due to being restricted by these 48 hours.

Good.

Maybe we'll see less of the "A SINGLE GOBLIN WAS SPOTTED??? RALLY THE ENTIRE ISLAND TO BENDIR!" style of gameplay happening.

Anything serious (i.e., more than just random highway gankery) will already require DM oversight and permission to pull off, and will probably include waiving the 48 hour rule in regards to people showing up to defend against your raid.

Strongly agree. The particular choice of wording is also strange to me.

More lax? Interesting choice, and one that seems to indicate that it's now up to the playerbase to enforce the standard of post-PvP etiquette they'd like to see. I hope it goes well.

Nekonecro wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:21 pm

Along with this it also creates a problem in regards to Underdark/Surface raiding where one raid can be repelled by a defending force
then the next day once ressurect sickness has passed they can raid again and the defending force is unable to respond due to being restricted by these 48 hours.

Honestly, if the same people raid the same place within 48 hours, that sounds a lot like they're breaking the 48 hour rule. They're going back to the same place they died prior, looking for trouble.

With every single good change on Arelith there will always be people who only see the bad in it.

More DM activity and events? "THIS IS SO OPPRESSIVE AND SUCH HANDHOLDING"

The ridiculous and frankly terrible old 24 rule format being changed to something more reasonable? "THIS WILL ONLY CAUSE GRIEFING AND PVP SHITTERY"

What's next? The garbage epic sacrifice system gets finally thrown out the window and there'll be people who will still say that whatever comes next is terrible? Christ, some don't know the good when it hits them right in the face.

Party in the forest at midnight wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:39 pm

Nekonecro wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:21 pm

Along with this it also creates a problem in regards to Underdark/Surface raiding where one raid can be repelled by a defending force
then the next day once ressurect sickness has passed they can raid again and the defending force is unable to respond due to being restricted by these 48 hours.

Honestly, if the same people raid the same place within 48 hours, that sounds a lot like they're breaking the 48 hour rule. They're going back to the same place they died prior, looking for trouble.

I think he means:

- Day 1: UDer's raid area around Bendir. Everyone on the island gets rallied to fight them off, as per usual.
- Day 2: UDer's raid area around a different settlement. Everyone on the island now on a 48 hour cooldown, UDer's free to cause mayhem on rando's and lowbies as they please.

Except they left out the part where there's an obvious solution to cheeseballs being cheesy, and it's called 'DM oversight and community management.'

Flower Power wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:44 pm

Except they left out the part where there's an obvious solution to cheeseballs being cheesy, and it's called 'DM oversight and community management.'

Oh no, I did consider DM oversight and community management, hence the quote below.

Nekonecro wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:21 pm

This might be workable, were there a firm commitment from the DM team to crack down on anyone who abuses their extended window of immunity.
Instead, however, the playerbase has been told that the situation will be treated with more leniency, not less, which reads like an invitation to go stir trouble while on pvp cooldown.
It is also unreasonable to consider the team to be all-seeing and onmi-present, they're not.

Richrd wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:42 pm

With every single good change on Arelith there will always be people who only see the bad in it.

More DM activity and events? "THIS IS SO OPPRESSIVE AND SUCH HANDHOLDING"

The ridiculous and frankly terrible old 24 rule format being changed to something more reasonable? "THIS WILL ONLY CAUSE GRIEFING AND PVP SHITTERY"

What's next? The garbage epic sacrifice system gets finally thrown out the window and there'll be people who will still say that whatever comes next is terrible? Christ, some don't know the good when it hits them right in the face.

My brother in Arelith, this reads like intensely negative and hostile background noise for someone who is, in the same breath, decrying negativity and hostility.

Flower Power wrote:Except they left out the part where there's an obvious solution to cheeseballs being cheesy, and it's called 'DM oversight and community management.'

Right, it's just strange to declare that enforcement of the same-area clause will be more lax going forward and then also lean into the argument that things will be closely monitored and managed going forward. It's mixed messages.

I don't really see an issue with the rule change. The goal is probably to stop 24 cooldown KB behaviour which is used to try and lock people out of RPing places. It's probably to try and help people in Andunor or Skal where you don't really have any options. The thing about leniency seems to be specifically about these situations, where people are probably going to end up in the same spaces after PvP occurs. If people take it as "ha ha i can go and camp the nexus portal every day and nobody can stop me," I doubt the team's going to be too pleased to hear about it.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I always assumed it was the player that went to the fugue that had the responsibility (within reason) to avoid the other side.

Flower Power wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:44 pm

Party in the forest at midnight wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:39 pm

Nekonecro wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:21 pm

Along with this it also creates a problem in regards to Underdark/Surface raiding where one raid can be repelled by a defending force
then the next day once ressurect sickness has passed they can raid again and the defending force is unable to respond due to being restricted by these 48 hours.

Honestly, if the same people raid the same place within 48 hours, that sounds a lot like they're breaking the 48 hour rule. They're going back to the same place they died prior, looking for trouble.

I think he means:

- Day 1: UDer's raid area around Bendir. Everyone on the island gets rallied to fight them off, as per usual.
- Day 2: UDer's raid area around a different settlement. Everyone on the island now on a 48 hour cooldown, UDer's free to cause mayhem on rando's and lowbies as they please.

Except they left out the part where there's an obvious solution to cheeseballs being cheesy, and it's called 'DM oversight and community management.'

I'd find the raiding party at fault in the example here. If they've been defeated, they shouldn't be off doing the same thing somewhere else within the 48 hour period. People responding to raiders and finding that a few of them were involved in yesterday's scuffle? That's really on them - the defeated raiders - to know that they should not be there in the first place.

We're not omnipresent, so we're trusting the playerbase to send in reports when people are doing the wrong thing. The only real change here is 24 hours has become 48 hours. Arelith's rules are about the spirit of the rules, so don't worry too much about specific wording. If you see a problem, report it to us so that we know what's going on and we can investigate further.

I have never been involved in much PVP, but are you talking about if:

HobbitA had to deal with a raid at Cordor that involved BadGuyB.
Hobbit A dies.
HobbitA has never seen BadGuyB until that day.
HobbitA goes home to Bendir to deal with his death.
BadGuyB then decides to attack Bendir the next day.

The expectation is that HobbitA has to leave Bendir because he was at Cordor the other day?

Surely, this is not at all in the spirit of these rules. Same with the raid thing; I can't imagine trying to exploit this 48h cooldown thing will be looked at very fondly by the DM team.

I'm also certain if the same group of people attack the same place (and id consider surface or UD a singular place in this context) before timer is out, they are the ones breaking the rules, not defenders.

Party in the forest at midnight wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:09 pm

I don't really see an issue with the rule change. The goal is probably to stop 24 cooldown KB behaviour which is used to try and lock people out of RPing places. It's probably to try and help people in Andunor or Skal where you don't really have any options. The thing about leniency seems to be specifically about these situations, where people are probably going to end up in the same spaces after PvP occurs. If people take it as "ha ha i can go and camp the nexus portal every day and nobody can stop me," I doubt the team's going to be too pleased to hear about it.

Exactly this.

I know 'common sense' is a rare and mysterious creature, like a Unicorn of an honest polititian, but that's none the less what we're looking for here.

In cases where someone is taking the P***s with the rules, such as with the raid example above, we'll deal with it.

The best part is that both sides of the pvp can still agree oocly to weave the now 48h rule if they want to RP the next day again, or fight again even. This rule change mostly prevents grief and I dont see anything wrong with that. If people play death as cheap they should be reported, murdering them again 24h later wouldnt really make a difference anyway.

Party in the forest at midnight wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:09 pm

I don't really see an issue with the rule change. The goal is probably to stop 24 cooldown KB behaviour which is used to try and lock people out of RPing places. It's probably to try and help people in Andunor or Skal where you don't really have any options. The thing about leniency seems to be specifically about these situations, where people are probably going to end up in the same spaces after PvP occurs. If people take it as "ha ha i can go and camp the nexus portal every day and nobody can stop me," I doubt the team's going to be too pleased to hear about it.

In agreement with the above.

Flower Power wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:29 pm

Nekonecro wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:21 pm

Along with this it also creates a problem in regards to Underdark/Surface raiding where one raid can be repelled by a defending force
then the next day once ressurect sickness has passed they can raid again and the defending force is unable to respond due to being restricted by these 48 hours.

Good.

Maybe we'll see less of the "A SINGLE GOBLIN WAS SPOTTED??? RALLY THE ENTIRE ISLAND TO BENDIR!" style of gameplay happening.

Anything serious (i.e., more than just random highway gankery) will already require DM oversight and permission to pull off, and will probably include waiving the 48 hour rule in regards to people showing up to defend against your raid.

+ 1

I don't know that I have a lot to add that hasn't already been said but I do think the idea of a free-day culture developing is a bit misguided. Whether it's the case or not that people will just get into fights so they can ride out the free period afterwards I don't think that this dynamic will be unique or more abusable under the 48-hour rule. The 24-hour rule already had the same potential for gameification in so much as, by the same logic as the hypothetical group in the 48-hour example, you could just get kbed and then launch an attack elsewhere knowing you were 'protected' from a counterforce of the same people showing up to the new location. It's a concern that I can sort of see the logic of but which ultimately boils down to abusing the spirit of the rules in both scenarios imo and so I can't say that I agree 48 hours presents any genuinely new problems.

Shadowy Reality wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:13 pm

Correct me if I am wrong, but I always assumed it was the player that went to the fugue that had the responsibility (within reason) to avoid the other side.

Sometimes they cannot, especially in Skal or UD. With death penalty lasting hours, higher level characters might just have to wait for another day....And here are your enemies that can kill u again at the same spot.

xf1313 wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:41 pm

Shadowy Reality wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:13 pm

Correct me if I am wrong, but I always assumed it was the player that went to the fugue that had the responsibility (within reason) to avoid the other side.

Sometimes they cannot, especially in Skal or UD. With death penalty lasting hours, higher level characters might just have to wait for another day....And here are your enemies that can kill u again at the same spot.

It seems like the best solution is as follows:

• The winner should ride the high of their victory. They've won! They've made their point! They don't even need to look at the scum they beat the other day.
• The loser should act like they could get beaten to a pulp again--which is reasonable, considering it just happened. Do your business quietly, get in, get out.
• People should avoid character concepts whose response to a loss is to be a shonen anime character and immediately start gunning for the next fight unless they're willing to actively roleplay a reason why they aren't doing what they're talking about doing. As an example (though this isn't the only way), I've seen this done before with someone talking up their big game about how they're so going to get their revenge while emoting clearly that they're still horribly beaten up and in no condition to fight.

Amateur Hour wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:54 pm

xf1313 wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:41 pm

Shadowy Reality wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:13 pm

Correct me if I am wrong, but I always assumed it was the player that went to the fugue that had the responsibility (within reason) to avoid the other side.

Sometimes they cannot, especially in Skal or UD. With death penalty lasting hours, higher level characters might just have to wait for another day....And here are your enemies that can kill u again at the same spot.

It seems like the best solution is as follows:

• The winner should ride the high of their victory. They've won! They've made their point! They don't even need to look at the scum they beat the other day.
• The loser should act like they could get beaten to a pulp again--which is reasonable, considering it just happened. Do your business quietly, get in, get out.
• People should avoid character concepts whose response to a loss is to be a shonen anime character and immediately start gunning for the next fight unless they're willing to actively roleplay a reason why they aren't doing what they're talking about doing. As an example (though this isn't the only way), I've seen this done before with someone talking up their big game about how they're so going to get their revenge while emoting clearly that they're still horribly beaten up and in no condition to fight.

This sort of overlooks the issue of people getting KBed in sync with the pvp timers which was part of why the change was made and is a massive issue in single town-square regions like Skal and Andunor. I don't think most people would disagree that if you eat a death it makes sense to lick your wounds for a bit rp-wise. But the reality that's played out is players pvping enemies pretty much on cooldown over and over in order to force people's hands and in regions with no alternate settlements to move into it leads to a zero sum scenario where any rp that happens is at the leisure of the most aggressive pvpers.

I'd also point out that post-resurrection amnesia is both allowed and encouraged as per the wiki. So while there's something to be said for ensuring that people are taking death seriously on their characters there also needs to be room in the post-combat behavior expectations for characters who simply don't recall being murdered.

PvPers gonna PvP, Can't kill A for 24h or 48h, Eh, Gonna PvP somebody else.

It's not a solution, More a bigger bandaid.

perseid wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:34 am

This sort of overlooks the issue of people getting KBed in sync with the pvp timers which was part of why the change was made and is a massive issue in single town-square regions like Skal and Andunor. I don't think most people would disagree that if you eat a death it makes sense to lick your wounds for a bit rp-wise. But the reality that's played out is players pvping enemies pretty much on cooldown over and over in order to force people's hands and in regions with no alternate settlements to move into it leads to a zero sum scenario where any rp that happens is at the leisure of the most aggressive pvpers.

More often than not if you lose in PVP once vs someone the same result will happen every time... That's just how this game is. Maybe a few glass cannon classes can get lucky or unlucky from fight to fight but usually the victor is pre-determined. So yeah this does happen where characters get shut out and have no ability to continue playing.

Sore losers are very annoying but I don't think enough is said about badly behaved winners, which are nearly as common here.

Eyeliner wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:59 am

perseid wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:34 am

This sort of overlooks the issue of people getting KBed in sync with the pvp timers which was part of why the change was made and is a massive issue in single town-square regions like Skal and Andunor. I don't think most people would disagree that if you eat a death it makes sense to lick your wounds for a bit rp-wise. But the reality that's played out is players pvping enemies pretty much on cooldown over and over in order to force people's hands and in regions with no alternate settlements to move into it leads to a zero sum scenario where any rp that happens is at the leisure of the most aggressive pvpers.

More often than not if you lose in PVP once vs someone the same result will happen every time... That's just how this game is. Maybe a few glass cannon classes can get lucky or unlucky from fight to fight but usually the victor is pre-determined. So yeah this does happen where characters get shut out and have no ability to continue playing.

Sore losers are very annoying but I don't think enough is said about badly behaved winners, which are nearly as common here.

+1 tbh, to many PvP builders ruins RP building and ..RP.

Thanks for the attempt, I guess. Unfortunately, I am still of the mind that the pvp rules create so many of the recurring issues that crop up over and over again and I don't see how extending something that at its core really does nothing to address the issues at hand by another 24 hours changes anything.

Here's to hoping I'm wrong though!