Conflict and mass PvP.

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Tesla420
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Conflict and mass PvP.

Post by Tesla420 » Thu Aug 18, 2022 4:06 pm

This thread was created as a direct response to a thread in general.

It is my opinion that a lot of people on the server really desire a safe place where they can go and create conflict with the expectation that they are not ruining someone else's OOC day or killing lower level unprepared players.

In another thread, people touched on the idea of a possible island where max level characters can go with the expectation that they will run into conflict in one form or another.

A common accusation I have seen in game. People will accuse others of targeting writ workers. (Which, let's face it. Is mostly an OOC accusation that you just kill lower level players.) Or that people are being attacked in their homes and cities/towns without relief.

Because such an island is completely opt in. It would make people feel a lot more comfortable and in line with starting conflict because they know the other PC is 30 and has chosen to go to murderdeath isle. So they can more easily make the hard decision in line with the "Be nice Rule" and arguably the "Always roleplay" rule.

This could potentially be an island like Skal. Without portals and accessible only through the ship system. We could put it on the distant shores server so it does not create massive lag issues and it would be ideally be rich in resources and have a few quarters that can only be evicted through city conquest.

It just feels like Arelith has a very large incentive for mass PvP. The NWN engine less so. But the size and scale of the conflicts and the nature of alliances. The server yearns for a way to express this. If an island like this existed, it would hopefully take some of the nameless barbarians who walk into Cordor and start taking heads - and instead put them off on an island somewhere where it creates less of an OOC problem.
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Re: Conflict and mass PvP.

Post by Good Character » Thu Aug 18, 2022 4:32 pm

Here's a few takes why this wouldn't be as good of an idea as perceived:

1. There's an existing example of this in another game - Old School Runescape and its wilderness. Very, very, very few people go there, and it's strictly because there's end-game incentives. Even then it's primarily bots or PvPers hoping to cash in on killing people farming these incentives. Ironically, though, I used to roleplay in the wildy before the true OSRS turned to RS3; fantastic fun as you could essentially do a lot in the way of criminal/evil player interaction.

2. It delegates a certain area as the PvP-zone for level 30s. It doesn't make any RP-sense.

3. Level 30 characters tend to be the movers and shakers of the server. With the lack of exposure to these characters low-level characters will be sticks in the mud.

Despite those points, I do love the concept of opt-in PvP zones. What if we just had "settlements" accessible to all that can ignore the rules of raiding? Still, of course, people are required to follow the other rules for PvP.

These outlier settlements could require actual traveling to - no nearby portals, no nearby fast transport. The journey would also be too difficult for low epics and below to make without help. To make it inticing to use have impressive end-game dungeons with runic chests and noble ores nearby, some sort of peddler that accepts goods no others can, or access to a merchant that sells an impressive, consumable item.

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Hazard
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Re: Conflict and mass PvP.

Post by Hazard » Thu Aug 18, 2022 4:37 pm

I don't see a reason for this, pvp can happen anywhere and it shouldn't matter what level someone is.
Not everyone needs to be level 30 to pvp, and I don't really want to see more of the game cater towards a 'max level, BiS gear' mentality. That's World of Warcraft stuff, and that game is a PoS.

Zones with pvp objectives? That sounds cool though. Aslong as we can still do normal RP everywhere else too, without being forced to go to 'PvP island' for PvP.

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Re: Conflict and mass PvP.

Post by Subtext » Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:15 pm

I really don't think it's a good idea.

For starters, PvP can happen virtually anywhere already which means that yes, lower levels can be caught in the crossfire.

Likewise, people that prey on lower levels or folks doing stuff solo exist. They derive their satisfaction out of getting their way with others whether they like it or not. Some hide it better than others but these people are there. Murderdeath island wouldn't help there either since people like that rarely look for an actual challenge.

Also, I don't think it fits very well with the RP focus of the community. Or you require RP before PvP there too and then you wouldn't have any difference to other end level zones.

I'm not personally opposed to stuff like that by the way. I just don't think it would fit Arelith very well :) I've seen similar concepts implemented in RP communities of other games and it was either barely used or not at all...or they were super casual about RP.

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Re: Conflict and mass PvP.

Post by Mattamue » Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:54 pm

Tesla420 wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 4:06 pm
expectation that they are not ruining someone else's OOC day or killing lower level unprepared players
There was another good thread in general about "bleed" and letting in character actions affect you out of character. This is the considerate, kind and thoughtful version of bleed. Trying not to ruin someone's ooc day or kill a lowbie is being nice. It is is much better than the Snuggybear version of bleed, but it's still letting ooc in.

I think you're looking for a solution that exists today. Make conflict interesting, follow the rules, try to collaborate. Report when someone is an Snuggybear. There's already a somewhat remote island where this flavor of rp can happen that's outside of main Arelith.

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Re: Conflict and mass PvP.

Post by Morgy » Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:13 pm

I agree with most of the points about, that things should probably stay as they are, and we should be addressing ooc bleed rather than anything else.

On a side-note, the phrase ‘targeting writ-workers’ is indeed often used to ooc claim a PC is killing lower levels. When this -is- the case, I’m sort of thinking this is a bit of ooc bleed itself.. levels are not an IC thing, and conflict is not reserved for same-level PCs. We probably shouldn’t be trying to point out level difference IC, indirectly or otherwise.

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Re: Conflict and mass PvP.

Post by Xerah » Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:30 pm

I love the capturable islands idea a lot even if it's not the thing I that I'm really into spending my time with. It's actually gives something tangible that people can fight over and win. Obviously, there would be a lot more to the idea so that one group doesn't fill up with optimal pvpers and take over everything forever, but it's a fun framework of an idea.

I'd like to see it be multiple islands rather than just one though.

I find it a strange comment that is detracts from other potential PVP though. I don't see that at all.
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Algol
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Re: Conflict and mass PvP.

Post by Algol » Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:33 pm

The old stonehold could be a good spot to experiment with capturable spots

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Re: Conflict and mass PvP.

Post by Edens_Fall » Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:53 pm

I feel a system would work IF such an area had a winnable goal for the PvP. Currently, yes anyone can make conflict and start wars (until settlements are directly involved and DMs step in with NPC leaders to force a peace deal) but there is no way to end a conflict other then one side getting tired and giving up.

The UD can raid Bendir every day or siege Darrowdeep but in the end nothing changes. They will be forced to retreat due to a united surface effort or the DMs will shoo them away as monsters etc can't remain on the surface. There is no reason for conflict right now other then for the conflict itself, which at least to me is unfilling.

A location, be it an island or castle in the mountains that all factions or settlements can fight over, gain control of, and defend is what I would like to see. A mini arelith for arelith to colonize and control.

That way both the surface and the underdark can have something to struggle over that results in a real thing benefit to those involved.

As it stands we have six surface settlements that can't even fight each other outside of bake offs (which Bendir wins in my mind, as they have the best pies!) and an Underdark where internal settlement conflict is frowned upon due to the close confines of the city.

Honestly just have a space for wars and such to take place. Those not interested or prefering less bloody game time can remain on island proper to run the daily risk of random UD bandits on the road or a dedicated city guard demanding you remove your hood or die.

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Re: Conflict and mass PvP.

Post by Edens_Fall » Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:58 pm

Algol wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:33 pm
The old stonehold could be a good spot to experiment with capturable spots
Oh thats a good idea! But Bendir is rather center on the isle and as a result gets a large helping of attention already. Maybe somewhere farther from a settlements borders? Light Keep perhaps?

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Algol
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Re: Conflict and mass PvP.

Post by Algol » Thu Aug 18, 2022 8:02 pm

Light keep is closer to bendir than stonehold afaik

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Re: Conflict and mass PvP.

Post by Yvesza » Thu Aug 18, 2022 8:31 pm

I really dislike the notion of people complaining about "writ workers" being killed as is if it's inconsiderate or morally bankrupt to attack them. It's a lot of OOC bleed to find it somehow more reprehensible to attack working adventurers who are going out of their way to fight things for money versus picking a fight with someone that isn't currently "on the clock" as it were.

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Re: Conflict and mass PvP.

Post by WanderingPoet » Thu Aug 18, 2022 8:37 pm

Putting it on a distant island, or even doing that with Sibayad would be nice.

Something near any settlement will just be annoying, for settlements. Andunor captures stonehold, now bendir/Brog/Myon are RP obligated to do something about it. Which means they're obligated to continually protect something that we as players don't really want to dominate our story.

Making it separate from mainland arelith makes them no longer obligatory to deal with.

----
That said, PVP should definitely still exist on the mainland. Sure, give reason to mass conflict other distant shores (and put all the lag over there), but it'd be really weird if we couldn't boot a necromancer out of town because PVP wasn't allowed on the mainland.

Writworkers is an interesting point - it'd be better to not point out levels IC as Morgy says, but... It's also IC - if you personally know someone is weak then it changes things. Nothing stops a writworker from acting like a level 30 and scaring people, and nothing stops a level 20 from beating up a level 30 (even if difficult). Writs are an IC thing, so it'd be weird to treat novices fresh off the boat the same as someone that has defeated a dracolich single handedly and writwork is an IC teller of that. Besides, technically writwork is just "Not level 25+". The points on OOC bleed are good too, just because they do writwork doesn't mean they're immune to getting punched for their actions.
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Re: Conflict and mass PvP.

Post by Mattamue » Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:04 pm

WanderingPoet wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 8:37 pm
Making it separate from mainland arelith makes them no longer obligatory to deal with.
Agreed on this, but Syb or Sencliff sort of already fill this role.

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Re: Conflict and mass PvP.

Post by Ebonstar » Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:12 pm

Yvesza wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 8:31 pm
I really dislike the notion of people complaining about "writ workers" being killed as is if it's inconsiderate or morally bankrupt to attack them. It's a lot of OOC bleed to find it somehow more reprehensible to attack working adventurers who are going out of their way to fight things for money versus picking a fight with someone that isn't currently "on the clock" as it were.
the thing with writ workers is they are usually low levels and most pvp is with lvl 30s that one hit can kill a lowbie. pvp doesnt have to be near a writ agent, have your fight in other places in the town.

The last post where a writ worker was killed, our group was getting paid for our delivery in a new place and pvp broke out inside the inn. This could have been done outside away from obvious low levels.

This is also why UD is pushed away from using their entry to cordor due to it being in the middle of level 3-5s running starting writs.

What people forget is there is such a thing as good PvP. Conflict that creates a month of rp after is a prime example. Knowing you may run into low levels and staying on Subdual so that there are witnesses is good PvP.

Constant attacks on settlements with limited npcs or zero guard presence just to claim a victory, is imo Shoddy PvP.

You are a PvP monster badarse lvl 30 who cant be beat, fine take your PvP to Cordor and then if you win, you have something to actually brag about.
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Re: Conflict and mass PvP.

Post by Ork » Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:23 pm

I'm violently reject this desire to protect "writ workers" or low levels. The threat of conflict, aggression and violence should happen anywhere and everywhere. You shouldn't feel safe. If someone is targeting lower levels, that is not your place to adjudicate on behalf of the lower level - report it to the DMs and move on.

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Re: Conflict and mass PvP.

Post by Amateur Hour » Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:34 pm

Ork wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:23 pm
I'm violently reject this desire to protect "writ workers" or low levels. The threat of conflict, aggression and violence should happen anywhere and everywhere. You shouldn't feel safe. If someone is targeting lower levels, that is not your place to adjudicate on behalf of the lower level - report it to the DMs and move on.
There's also the matter of "how and why are lower levels being targeted"?

I could see a bandit PC, for example, targeting lower levels for the sake of trying to add some excitement and danger to the lowbie experience. My few low-level player-conflict experiences have been along these lines (including, I have to mention, my lowbie drow running straight into Shevarashi), and it can certainly be very fun as a player if the leadup roleplay is adequate.

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Re: Conflict and mass PvP.

Post by perseid » Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:16 pm

I never understood why writ workers aren't a bigger political talking point. It always seemed like if settlements are going to be run by pcs then at least SOME of their concerns would be pc concerns and not just fluffed rp concerns (not that there's anything wrong with those). If writ workers are under threat I'd think a candidate's ability to mobilize a defense of the territory would give voters a reason to actually pay attention. As it stands though it's rare for me to even see guards patrolling outside one or two zones of their settlements and voters just roll with it.

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Re: Conflict and mass PvP.

Post by Eyeliner » Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:45 pm

I know most settlements claim zones fifty screens away but I don't think that's the intent and writ areas outside cities are supposed to be wilderness threats not property of Brog or Anundor or wherever.

I get the point but sending epic PCs to patrol mid level writ areas and gatekeep who can be there would be as much a problem as the "other side" going there looking for a fight.

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Re: Conflict and mass PvP.

Post by TurningLeaf » Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:46 pm

Based on how it always annoys me on a non-earthkin to not have access to those earthkin portals, maybe a wider ability of factions to "own" and vie for control of portals/destinations could someday be a candidate for a scarce desirable resource worth fighting over.

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Re: Conflict and mass PvP.

Post by perseid » Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:56 pm

Eyeliner wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:45 pm
I get the point but sending epic PCs to patrol mid level writ areas and gatekeep who can be there would be as much a problem as the "other side" going there looking for a fight.
Is gatekeeping not the exact purpose of guards though? I could be wrong but I feel like the term gets thrown around as a pejorative but in this context it's exactly what some people rp as. If the gatekeepers won't keep the gate it seems like that's a thing the populace can/should be encouraged to treat as an ic issue rather than a thing to be handwaved away.

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Re: Conflict and mass PvP.

Post by MischeviousMeerkat » Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:07 pm

Yes, but it gets in the way of me grinding. It's the same reason why people that kill couriers "for RP" will never get a kudos thread dedicated to them. High levels kill the exp gain and at least we did it right with Skal.

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Re: Conflict and mass PvP.

Post by Amateur Hour » Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:39 pm

perseid wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:16 pm
I never understood why writ workers aren't a bigger political talking point. It always seemed like if settlements are going to be run by pcs then at least SOME of their concerns would be pc concerns and not just fluffed rp concerns (not that there's anything wrong with those). If writ workers are under threat I'd think a candidate's ability to mobilize a defense of the territory would give voters a reason to actually pay attention. As it stands though it's rare for me to even see guards patrolling outside one or two zones of their settlements and voters just roll with it.
Because writworkers are the people taking care of concerns. They are being hired by the writ company, presumably acting as a broker for settlements, to deal with nearby hazards. It's a little like "why are we not talking about protecting firefighters better from housefires?"

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Re: Conflict and mass PvP.

Post by Eyeliner » Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:41 pm

perseid wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:56 pm
Eyeliner wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:45 pm
I get the point but sending epic PCs to patrol mid level writ areas and gatekeep who can be there would be as much a problem as the "other side" going there looking for a fight.
Is gatekeeping not the exact purpose of guards though? I could be wrong but I feel like the term gets thrown around as a pejorative but in this context it's exactly what some people rp as. If the gatekeepers won't keep the gate it seems like that's a thing the populace can/should be encouraged to treat as an ic issue rather than a thing to be handwaved away.
I'm particularly thinking of epics manning writ areas to check for warlocks and other undesirables. Or just trying to claim "only Bendir citizens can access these writs." That stuff can lead to story if it's occasional, sure, but it can also make the game unplayable if it is constant.

I think writ areas should be mostly for level appropriate characters. Not saying epics should be banned from writ zones, but the shouldn't be lingering there all day to harass characters a third of their level. Not saying writ zones should be conflict free either but it's a whole lot better experience for everyone if it's two level appropriate factions encountering each other than one who will always win.

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Re: Conflict and mass PvP.

Post by perseid » Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:47 pm

Eyeliner wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:41 pm
perseid wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:56 pm
Eyeliner wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:45 pm
I get the point but sending epic PCs to patrol mid level writ areas and gatekeep who can be there would be as much a problem as the "other side" going there looking for a fight.
Is gatekeeping not the exact purpose of guards though? I could be wrong but I feel like the term gets thrown around as a pejorative but in this context it's exactly what some people rp as. If the gatekeepers won't keep the gate it seems like that's a thing the populace can/should be encouraged to treat as an ic issue rather than a thing to be handwaved away.
I'm particularly thinking of epics manning writ areas to check for warlocks and other undesirables. Or just trying to claim "only Bendir citizens can access these writs." That stuff can lead to story if it's occasional, sure, but it can also make the game unplayable if it is constant.

I think writ areas should be mostly for level appropriate characters. Not saying epics should be banned from writ zones, but the shouldn't be lingering there all day to harass characters a third of their level. Not saying writ zones should be conflict free either but it's a whole lot better experience for everyone if it's two level appropriate factions encountering each other than one who will always win.
I think we're along pretty similar lines of thought then. I'd certainly not suggest epics just hang out in popular writ regions on the off-chance some no-gooder shows. I just don't encounter patrols ever that often when I roam around claimed 'territory' (but then again this could easily just be timing on my part).

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