Pure Swashbuckler, epic level feedback

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The Kriv
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Pure Swashbuckler, epic level feedback

Post by The Kriv » Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:12 am

Just got my first swashbuckler build character into epic levels.

"only the first attack in a 'flurry' can be parried" thing is a real setback... I think maybe if an epic swashbuckler could somehow have 50% concealment effect added against attacks from his current target or latest attacker (in the same way Dodge feat works)... that way at least against ONE opponent, the swashbuckler isn't so vulnerable against that flurry attack from an opponent with so many attacks that it triggers a flurry or two every single combat round.

Maybe it could be reserved for lvl 26 or 27 levels of swashbuckler, so It could be a nice carrot to give at 27, so that it could still allow for a 3 or 4 level dip to something else.


gear:
"Dualist Ring" item out there has fighter as a prereq, but does not have Swashbuckler... seems odd to me.

"Fencing Buckler" offers AC+4, Parry +3 --but also has a Armor Check penalty of -1, so the +Parry is actually only net +2.
I think that having the word "buckler" in the class name, "Swashbuckler" built into the class should be the ability to equip a small
shield (i.e. a "Buckler") without incurring any Armor Check Penalty.


Compared to other classes out there that have equipment that grant large boons, like +2 Stat bumps combined with multiple use spell effects, and class-restricted armours, I have yet to come across anything in game that is a "Swashbuckler" class restricted item that grants any of these kinds of things.

Gear-wise, this class has next to no support.

other than that.. it's been a real blast trying to outwit the monsters and adventuring as a Swashbuckler... I'm maxing out the SAIL skill to in hopes to join a (non piriate) crew as a helmsman one day.

I hope this class sees some extra love, it's too bad it's overally so crappy.

Ideally, it would be fun to see "Swashbuckler" as the ultimate 1 v 1 melee class.. unbeatable in single person combat with a melee weapon... Oh well.. one can dream.
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Re: Pure Swashbuckler, epic level feedback

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Mon Sep 05, 2022 2:48 am

The version of swashbuckler you want to play may not be supported (lvl 30 is still playable much like pure 30 fighter is still playable though). But there are very viable 1 vs 1 swashbuckler builds.

This goes away from what you are trying to build (dex i would assume) but they 21 swash, 5 wm, 4 fighter is very comparable to the 25 fighter 5 wm. It has little bit less ab and ac, more raw damage, but also third intention still for dodging a hellball or ignoring couple seconds of another weaponmaster while you get them with crits still. (can also taunt while doing 3rd intention.

If wanting to be dex based, i highly recommend 26 swash, 4 fighter. You get more epic feats and epic weapon specialization than 30 swash. Thirty dex swash is good, but you have to remember that because you have 100% uptime haste + the other cookies of pure swash, you have to be significantly weaker in other areas like swashbuckler that dip into other classes. As 100%uptime haste can has a lot of implications/impact on pvp.

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Re: Pure Swashbuckler, epic level feedback

Post by Good Character » Mon Sep 05, 2022 5:53 am

Class has a bunch of fantastic cookies. The fients, 3rd Intention, full BAB, and Blinding Speed. Overloading would be too much. I see Swashbuckler like the Fighter's cousin; it's not the worst if you go pure but multiclassing is best.

While I admit the STR-version lacks gear support, the DEX version has a solid item to use.

Parry is a meme. No one should be taking it with any realistic use in PvP aside from forcing their opponent to briefly change up what they're doing, or to buy yourself time to let 3rd Intentiom come off cooldown.

Feints definitely need to be based on DEX modifier instead of INT modifier, though; it's a non-spellcasting class that relies on crafted gear instead of dweomercraft gear. Even if you went 70 in one of the skills and maxed out INT with a base INT of 16, that's a 38 DC; solid number but you'll be seriously struggling to gear for that and most top tier builds are hitting saves of 30+ even before spellcraft (which feints ignore).

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Re: Pure Swashbuckler, epic level feedback

Post by Svrtr » Mon Sep 05, 2022 6:51 am

Good Character wrote:
Mon Sep 05, 2022 5:53 am
Class has a bunch of fantastic cookies. The fients, 3rd Intention, full BAB, and Blinding Speed. Overloading would be too much. I see Swashbuckler like the Fighter's cousin; it's not the worst if you go pure but multiclassing is best.

While I admit the STR-version lacks gear support, the DEX version has a solid item to use.

Parry is a meme. No one should be taking it with any realistic use in PvP aside from forcing their opponent to briefly change up what they're doing, or to buy yourself time to let 3rd Intentiom come off cooldown.

Feints definitely need to be based on DEX modifier instead of INT modifier, though; it's a non-spellcasting class that relies on crafted gear instead of dweomercraft gear. Even if you went 70 in one of the skills and maxed out INT with a base INT of 16, that's a 38 DC; solid number but you'll be seriously struggling to gear for that and most top tier builds are hitting saves of 30+ even before spellcraft (which feints ignore).
These would not be good suggestions. Making it DEX based means that STR swash would suffer immensely.

As it is, comparing them isn't per se fair. If we take for example 2 common builds

25/5

25 BAB + 1 WM + 5 weapon + 15 STR + 3 EWF + 1 prowess + 2 epic second wind = 52 AB

AC: 10 base + 15 dragon bone armor (2 from fighter bons) + 9 tower shield (2 from fighter bonus) + 5 helmet deflection + 4 natural bark skin + 3 tumble + 4 haste + 1 mage armor + 1 boots + 2 armor skin = 54 AC

21/4/5

25 BAB + 1 WM + 1 swash + 3 rapier + 3 EWF + 1 prowess + 14 STR = 48 AB (would be 49 but the swash AB bonus at 20 would require 14 hard dex where as normally the statline is 13)

AC: 10 base + 12 draconic/melven + 2 armor skin + 4 deflection + 6 parry + 6 tumble + 4 natural + 4 haste + 1 mage armor + 1 boots + 2 swash = 52 AC


As can be seen above, swash gets both CONSISTENTLY less AB and less AC, where fighter has 1 more AB (3 when epic second wind is up), 2 more AC, but unmentioned is it also has better DI to be tankier along with the offhand stat bonuses from the unique tower shield. Likewise, its deflection AC is unbreachable where swash's deflection from shield is breachable.

To make matters worse, fighter gets bonuses to the weapon itself to cut through DR effects like premonition or stone skin. On top of this, for swash to get its damage it has a stat tax in the form of intelligence, which by extension applies too to its gear, meaning it must gear INT to get the most of its damage and class feats. Where as swash must be gearing INT, CON, and STR for this STR swash WM, fighter only needs STR and CON and thus has more room for unisaves and is then generally arguably better off for saves (and might be doubly so if it goes for save feats instead of overwhelming crit, more on that later). The if we look at DI fighter will have on average

Slashing: 10% armor + 5% shield
PIercing: 5% armor + 5% shield
Bludgeoning: 5% armor + 10% helmet + 5% shield

Where as swash will have only the 10% armor if they use draconic to achieve there thinly spread gearing nightmare and 10% bludgeoning, or 10%-5%-5% and 10%, aka it loses out on the shield DI and its offhand stats, while fighter on the other hand is ALSO getting +2 soft STR to make gearing easier and giving even MORE room for saves/skills/what have you

FURTHERMORE, to maximize on these swash class features, one must have a skill tax and tax to gear a certain skill. This isn't the worst scenario since some skills have se like leadership or bluff, but it is yet more taxation on skills to get the most of it, for class features that are themselves entirely blocked by a single potion/spell/scroll/wand and that a notable number of enemies in PvE are immune to, on a class with little to no way to get rid of NEP if it is up.

FURTHER FUURTHER more, swash has its one defining characteristic, INT to damage, which even after the nightmare of its stat and gear tax, is a nice cool 9 more damage.

However,with fighter if we assume it takes overwhelming critical (which is a decently common thing on 25/5) and assume that every hit the fighter makes will confirm the crit at an equal rate to the swash (its a higher rate due to the higher AB than swash), we see

OWC: +2d6 45% of the time, or about 7 damage 45% of the time, or about 3.4 damage.

This yet further brings swash's one notable bonus closer to 25/5, while it also doesn't have cleave or greatcleave that fighter could fit to get it. If we wanted to get pedantic, the damage might be closer to a true 3.5 assuming fighter crits more often, but it muddles what's supposed to be a general outline.



This, on top of the fact that fighter has 30 more HP (600 vs 570 assuming that the array is 19 STR, 13 DEX, 16 CON 14 INT fighter and 14 CON 16 INT swash), shows that:

Swash has to gear more and is stat taxed more for marginal bonuses blocked by NEP with a few tricks that are neat but struggle to do much anything unless you're like disguise maxing or going leadership, on a non CHA class whose bonus then is lessened over other classes that would go for it. It has to gear skills and stats to get its damage bonus and the DC up on feint and second intention, which leaves precious room for little else where they often already do not have an offhand for stats unless they want to lower their precarious as is AC.

Swash has to work more to do less all in all, while being more frail in terms of AC, HP, and DI, arguably saves even with the saves bonuses on swash where 25/5 can gear more unisaves and spellcraft.


Dex might muddle the issue, but the fact the AB is also marred by dex and dex is in a strange spot as is for balance doesn't do much to help swash look nicer.

I love swash, but almost never would I take more than 10-12 levels, or else find a sweet spot in 19 or 21, but in many ways swash will just suffer, especially since if we look at dips

4 fighter: 3 feats, can get EWS, if it goes EWS 1 feat and 6 damage that requires no gearing
4 swash: 4 INT to damage if weapon is right type and geared, no feats, bonus to reflex save if in light enough armor, tumble though

5 fighter: Same above but 1 AC for all armor types
5 swash: Same above but up to 5 damage from INT if geared/buffed and using finesse weapon

10 fighter: 6 whole feats, potential for 6 damage, 1 AC to armor, to shields, and 1 STR or DEX to alleviate gearing
10 swash: 1 AB if 12 hard dex, 1 AC if in light or no armor, mobility still nice, up to 10 damage from INT if fully geared and finesse weapon, INT bonus to social skills


I've begun to rant and its late, but the point here is making swash a solely dex base class is a massive middle finger to STR swash, buut more importantly swash as a class works harder to do less and NEP sucks for its two core class features there, and its stat and gear tax hurts immensely

Edit: worth noting is that the DC stuff should ignore spellcraft, so 38 DC is nice, but again, blocked by NEP, also big stat and skill and gear tax for something with less AC, elss AB, less damage, at more risk of losing AC if like cat's grace gets dispelled, less DI, no burst heal, and only a smidge more damage that too is at risk of being dispelled and brought even closer to being equal damage

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Re: Pure Swashbuckler, epic level feedback

Post by garrbear758 » Tue Sep 06, 2022 3:38 pm

I'm not actively playing right now, but felt I should come back to discuss this since I had a hand in making the class, along with Aniel. It's badly needed some minor tweaks for awhile to work how it was intended to as a primary class, particularly majority or pure dex swash.

1: Gearing it is impossible. This was a design flaw from the start on my part. Swash needs to gear dex or str, con, int, saves, and an extra skill in bluff/intimidate/etc. The only other 3 stat builds either get a stat to saves or are monk who gets full saves progression and SR.

2: Having to take imp evasion and defensive roll as epic bonus feats leaves you with 5 epic feats for EWF, Armor skin, ESF disc, epic dodge, blinding speed, esf social skill, and prowess. Ideally this would be a choice between the social skill and prowess.

To fix this, swash should get imp evasion OR defensive roll at 24. This nets dex swash 1 more epic feat without enabling any new problem to get epic dodge such as 23 swash 7 knight or 23 swash 7 wm.

Additionally, at level 18, swash should get the higher of double int + 3 or soft int to their damage, panache!, and DCs. This would mean a swash with 16 int would not have to gear int. 18 int would get 1 higher to these numbers, which is fine with the heavier base stat investment as they'd be losing out on some str or con, and anything lower than 16 base int would still be better off gearing. 18 is a good spot because it's not a typical stopping point for swash builds, and it still forces gearing on already viable builds that stop at lower swash levels.

With these 2 changes, heavy/pure swash, and particularly dex swash, will actually be a viable build, and it meets the initial design intentions of the class. These were changes I meant to make before I left and never got around to, and I think they are long overdue.o

Edit: Another thing I'd like to add to allow some more options would be to let parry also count for feint / 2nd intention DCs in lieu of a social skill. Numbers would come out about the same if not lower as there's no parry gift like bluff, you wouldn't get panache! towards it, but you would get the higher dex if using that as your primary stat.

Also, with all of this, its fortunately not a heavy lift. One 2da line change for Imp evasion at 24, and then about 2-3 lines of code for the int scaling and adding parry. It's been a long time since I looked at the code but I believe it sets a constant for your soft int towards the beginning of the scripts. Literally would just be something like:

if (getLevelByClass cls_swash > 17)
{
if (getBaseInt * 2 + 3 > softIntConstant) softIntConstant = baseInt * 3;
}

Then add parry to the social skills calculation for the 2 DCs.
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Re: Pure Swashbuckler, epic level feedback

Post by Allafif » Fri Sep 16, 2022 2:41 am

On the topic of gearing, it'd be great if you could use your Parry shield AC while holding a buckler, so that you don't miss out on an entire gear slot's worth of perks.

That or some other Swashbuckler-only offhand item that allows it.

Sorry to bump after 9 days but I just thought of it.

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Re: Pure Swashbuckler, epic level feedback

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Sep 16, 2022 2:37 pm

Allafif wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 2:41 am
On the topic of gearing, it'd be great if you could use your Parry shield AC while holding a buckler, so that you don't miss out on an entire gear slot's worth of perks.

That or some other Swashbuckler-only offhand item that allows it.

Sorry to bump after 9 days but I just thought of it.
Hey that's a pretty cool idea. It basically gives Swashbuckler the 'magic vestment' treatment. You get 6 ac from 'empty' off-hand and then can use a basin made small shield with stats and skills.

Doesnt really solve the problem but it would help a bunch and it feels thematic to me.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Pure Swashbuckler, epic level feedback

Post by The Kriv » Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:20 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 2:37 pm
Allafif wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 2:41 am
On the topic of gearing, it'd be great if you could use your Parry shield AC while holding a buckler, so that you don't miss out on an entire gear slot's worth of perks.

That or some other Swashbuckler-only offhand item that allows it.

Sorry to bump after 9 days but I just thought of it.
Hey that's a pretty cool idea. It basically gives Swashbuckler the 'magic vestment' treatment. You get 6 ac from 'empty' off-hand and then can use a basin made small shield with stats and skills.

Doesnt really solve the problem but it would help a bunch and it feels thematic to me.
I suggested also a mod to let Swashbuckler be immune to Buckler/Small Shield Armor Check Penalty. It's a small thing, but the +3 Parry shield once you equip it is net +2 parry, because you lose -1 from the Armor Check Penalty... it'd be nice if that just went away for a Swashbuckler.
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AstralUniverse
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Re: Pure Swashbuckler, epic level feedback

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:32 am

These are all nice ideas but I think from coding perspective it would be much easier and less time consuming to just do what Garrbear said. If a dexer swash isnt forced into gear both str and int to have any resemblance of kill pressure, it should mostly be fine. People will be able to gear both damage and saves and the class should be more or less on par with other classes. The epic dodge part of his suggestion is mostly to aid pure swash by 1 extra epic feat, since they have a lot of feats to fit in, but otherwise it doesnt really buff swash all that much. It makes the 26 swash 4 fighter into 24 swash 6 fighter, that nets 1 more ac. But that's about it. I think those ideas are pin point spot on what Swash needs right now.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Pure Swashbuckler, epic level feedback

Post by Quidix » Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:32 pm

garrbear758 wrote:
Tue Sep 06, 2022 3:38 pm
I'm not actively playing right now, but felt I should come back to discuss this since I had a hand in making the class, along with Aniel. It's badly needed some minor tweaks for awhile to work how it was intended to as a primary class, particularly majority or pure dex swash.

1: Gearing it is impossible. This was a design flaw from the start on my part. Swash needs to gear dex or str, con, int, saves, and an extra skill in bluff/intimidate/etc. The only other 3 stat builds either get a stat to saves or are monk who gets full saves progression and SR.

2: Having to take imp evasion and defensive roll as epic bonus feats leaves you with 5 epic feats for EWF, Armor skin, ESF disc, epic dodge, blinding speed, esf social skill, and prowess. Ideally this would be a choice between the social skill and prowess.

To fix this, swash should get imp evasion OR defensive roll at 24. This nets dex swash 1 more epic feat without enabling any new problem to get epic dodge such as 23 swash 7 knight or 23 swash 7 wm.

Additionally, at level 18, swash should get the higher of double int + 3 or soft int to their damage, panache!, and DCs. This would mean a swash with 16 int would not have to gear int. 18 int would get 1 higher to these numbers, which is fine with the heavier base stat investment as they'd be losing out on some str or con, and anything lower than 16 base int would still be better off gearing. 18 is a good spot because it's not a typical stopping point for swash builds, and it still forces gearing on already viable builds that stop at lower swash levels.

With these 2 changes, heavy/pure swash, and particularly dex swash, will actually be a viable build, and it meets the initial design intentions of the class. These were changes I meant to make before I left and never got around to, and I think they are long overdue.o

Edit: Another thing I'd like to add to allow some more options would be to let parry also count for feint / 2nd intention DCs in lieu of a social skill. Numbers would come out about the same if not lower as there's no parry gift like bluff, you wouldn't get panache! towards it, but you would get the higher dex if using that as your primary stat.

Also, with all of this, its fortunately not a heavy lift. One 2da line change for Imp evasion at 24, and then about 2-3 lines of code for the int scaling and adding parry. It's been a long time since I looked at the code but I believe it sets a constant for your soft int towards the beginning of the scripts. Literally would just be something like:

if (getLevelByClass cls_swash > 17)
{
if (getBaseInt * 2 + 3 > softIntConstant) softIntConstant = baseInt * 3;
}

Then add parry to the social skills calculation for the 2 DCs.
This is spot on. I really hope it happens one day. It's close to being a smooth class, but those 2 issues make high lvl non-str swash frustrating.

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Re: Pure Swashbuckler, epic level feedback

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:02 pm

These changes are already supposed to be in the oven, but maybe they take time to code or there are other priorities atm.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Pure Swashbuckler, epic level feedback

Post by Shiki » Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:16 am

garrbear758 wrote:
Tue Sep 06, 2022 3:38 pm


Additionally, at level 18, swash should get the higher of double int + 3 or soft int to their damage, panache!, and DCs. This would mean a swash with 16 int would not have to gear int. 18 int would get 1 higher to these numbers, which is fine with the heavier base stat investment as they'd be losing out on some str or con, and anything lower than 16 base int would still be better off gearing. 18 is a good spot because it's not a typical stopping point for swash builds, and it still forces gearing on already viable builds that stop at lower swash levels.

With these 2 changes, heavy/pure swash, and particularly dex swash, will actually be a viable build, and it meets the initial design intentions of the class. These were changes I meant to make before I left and never got around to, and I think they are long overdue.
If this discussed change is saying that at 16 hard int I would be able to drop all soft int from gear and still retain my +9 int damage bonus, that sounds like an enormous buff to strength 2hander swashbucklers. If not, this sounds like a 3 damage nerf to 2hander strength swash damage, and... well, that's really all 2hander swash has going for it, I think.

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