Settlement Management - The Ugly

[-XXX-]

Also? Some shops are just piss-poor. It's only organic and natural isnt it...

IMO this is being excerberated by the shop stall lottery. Most low lvl characters are just incapable of running a really good shop efficiently, because the most sought after merchandise tends to be:

- Runic components (endgame PvE loot)
- Adamantine (endgame PvE loot)
- Magical consumables (cost XP to make)
- Crafted consumables (lot of CP to mass produce = requires high lvl crafter)
- High end craftables (high DC = requires high lvl crafter)

TBH, I think that a lvl requirement for owning permanent shops for non-commoner characters might be helpful.

[Arienette]

Are there downsides to the current shop system? Yes. I can even list them.

1) you cant do RP about selling/buying property anymore.
2) you cannot really control the quality of the goods sold in your settlement. This isnt even just because the mechanical system, as it's levels of freedom are even encouraged by DMs and I hear a lot of "the king/whatever wont allow us to intervene unless it's an extreme case of trade crime" around Cordor and other settlements even. So it's not necessarily a downside overall, but lets call it a downside just for the shop system specifically.

The upside of the current system, however, is that shops cycle a lot more and people of all timezones and playstyles and ooc cliquery level have an equal chance to get a shop.

My two cents? The current system is great in comparison.

Another big downside is the LEGIT passing of a shop from one character to another can no longer happen.

My first ever character got a shop in old Guldorand. When I got it, I had a TON of runes and high end crafting materials and filled the place about 2/3 of the way. I didn’t have enough stuff to fill the whole thing up, so I got a partner who made wands to sell. After some IRL months I had sold off most of my stuff and wasn’t doing enough PvE grind to keep up with materials for crafting. So I passed the shop to my partner.

Then she got a partner and after some time passed it to that partner.

I actually did that sort of thing a couple of times on that character. I don’t see it as a bad thing: it wasn’t some sort of cliquish OOC collusion, it just happened organically through RP. I used to see that sort of thing happen pretty frequently under the old system.

In the current system, John can own a shop and stock 10 items. Sally stocks 10, and Jane stocks 10. If John has to give up the shop for some reason (roll, shelve, AFK, whatever) he cannot pass it on to Sally or Jane and they are SOL. I personally don’t think that’s a good thing. And I strongly suspect there are characters that only exist so as not to pull the rug out from under their co-merchants.

I understand that my experiences might be different from others. I currently play 2 characters actively. One owns a shop, and has access to sell goods through a total of at least seven. The other character has access to at least 3 shops on demand.

I would suggest that OWNING a shop is sort of beside the point. What is good for everyone is having access to shops and the cooperative merchant RP that comes along with it. The answer to more PCs having access to this resource is simple: more cooperative RP. The current system of effectively randomizing shop ownership does not contribute to this solution, and I think it in fact harms it.

[AstralUniverse]

Interesting. Lets break this down.

- Runic components (endgame PvE loot)

Exist in literally any second shop, even now in the current system. Frankly there's little else to do with those components other than handing them to someone with a shop and splitting the profits with them after you dont need them for yourself anymore.

- Adamantine (endgame PvE loot)

This stuff is hard to get. A lot of lvl 30 people with shop wont be selling that anyway because the dungeons who got addy are only soloable but few, and generally require groups and someone's gonna need it for gear tbh. I think this has more to do with the availability of addy, and if it were more common you'd see it in shops like runes.

- Magical consumables (cost XP to make)

- High end craftables (high DC = requires high lvl crafter)

Agreed on both.

Besides those things I also like to see shops dedicated to just selling crafting materials, which are perfect use for low level character shop and I also like weird loot stuff most people think is useless but isnt to me, and ironically you tend to find those being sold by the clueless, next to a bunch of true garbage.

To me it just feels more organic, is all. Also people can learn, and they'll learn faster by trial and error.

Another big downside is the LEGIT passing of a shop from one character to another can no longer happen.

Yeah I literally addressed that as the #1 downside of the system.

[TurningLeaf]

Regarding citizenship/not, I find it surprising that not even law enforcement characters can tell if someone is a citizen or not.

[Arienette]

Ah. Well, I guess I considered that to be different from buying/selling haha.

[Arienette]

Regarding citizenship/not, I find it surprising that not even law enforcement characters can tell if someone is a citizen or not.

Somewhat recently learned that you can be a settlement official without being a citizen. I don’t have any particular feelings about that, it was just surprising.

[ElvenEdibles]

The upside of the current system, however, is that shops cycle a lot more and people of all timezones and playstyles and ooc cliquery level have an equal chance to get a shop.

They cycle a lot more, yes, but they consistently cycle garbage. I mean, it's great they're changing hands so much. But people act like it was impossible to get shops before with the old system and in my experience it wasn't.

I will concede it's made things fair for people with limited playtime, but I think that in itself is a downside because people with limited playtime are going to have a much harder time keeping things stocked unless it's a wand/potion/scroll shop and they're already level 30

[Arienette]

The upside of the current system, however, is that shops cycle a lot more and people of all timezones and playstyles and ooc cliquery level have an equal chance to get a shop.

They cycle a lot more, yes, but they consistently cycle garbage. I mean, it's great they're changing hands so much. But people act like it was impossible to get shops before with the old system and in my experience it wasn't.

I will concede it's made things fair for people with limited playtime, but I think that in itself is a downside because people with limited playtime are going to have a much harder time keeping things stocked unless it's a wand/potion/scroll shop and they're already level 30

Agreed. Those who want to engage in merchant RP and are fairly casual players should seek to engage with others ICly and get involved in a shop. Not own a shop themselves and stock it with 10 junk loot items.

One of my characters works with a particular shop. My character provides a constant stock of 4 particular items. I am a very active player, the owner is moderately active and the others involved are not particularly active at all. But between the 4 items I provide, and the 4 casual players who play maybe 5-10 hours a week and provide the rest, the shop is fully stocked with good stuff. Constantly 28, 29, or 30/30 and the shop continuously kicks out 500k+ per IG month and sometimes breaks a million.

This is good for the 5 players involved in the shop, the settlement it is in, and the many other PCs who can easily and regularly buy the things they need/want there.

PCs who don’t play enough to get involved with a situation like that can just do without. PCs who cannot create the IC RP relationships to get involved with something like that should do without, and focus on their RP until they can.

Maybe slightly harsh but that’s my outlook.

[magistrasa]

My character exclusively sold books in her shop. Not phrasebooks or summoning books, just player-written story books. I made hundreds of thousands in profit before I even hit level 20. It's the only time I've ever experienced "fun" with shop ownership; previously I thought they were antithetical concepts. When I inevitably return to the game in a few months, I fully intend to pick the business back up, and since I don't do any of that OOC coordination stuff, the shop lottery system makes that a feasible possibility rather than a dim, far-off prospect. I'll agree it's not a perfect system, but it's an improvement that I don't know how to reasonably improve upon.

The idea that the only way to turn a profit with a shop is to sell all the same things everyone else is selling and that you can only do it well at a certain character level is not just wrongheaded - it also just makes me really sad. Please stop making me sad and start using your shops for things that are less boring.

[Slapstick]

The fact that shop ownershop has been democratized is fantastic. I would actually hate if the bidding system went away. The fact that shop ownership comes with absolutely no impetus or responsibility however, is not great. The poor state of several shops is, in my opinion, because you can keep a shop with absolutely no cost to yourself. Why spend time crafting gear, forming a merchant guild, etc. if the shop is still going to be yours in a week or two? Why not bid on a shop even if you intend to roll in 3 weeks?

If the shops had a much higher maintenance cost (purchase price is already high enough), it would incentivise you to stock it well, maybe find a partner, and be interested in actually running the shop. Shop leasing is simply too cheap. The rent could also be further differentiated between the central, not so central, and wilderness shops.

[ElvenEdibles]

The idea that the only way to turn a profit with a shop is to sell all the same things everyone else is selling and that you can only do it well at a certain character level is not just wrongheaded - it also just makes me really sad. Please stop making me sad and start using your shops for things that are less boring.

That's the point though, the same think everyone else is selling is by and large complete and total boring junk and it is because of the lottery system. Good luck getting a shop because you are essentially rolling for a major award with potentially worse odds everytime you bid on one.

You know what idea makes me sad and needs to die? The idea that you needed OOC coordination at all to get a shop in the old system.

The fact that shop ownershop has been democratized is fantastic.

Just a little quibble but it has in fact not been democratized, only randomized.

[-XXX-]

- Runic components (endgame PvE loot)

Exist in literally any second shop, even now in the current system. Frankly there's little else to do with those components other than handing them to someone with a shop and splitting the profits with them after you dont need them for yourself anymore.

They are collecting dust in many shops simply because people overprice them. The demand is still there - all one needs to do for runic components to start flying off the shelves is to get the price right.

[magistrasa]

That's the point though, the same think everyone else is selling is by and large complete and total boring junk and it is because of the lottery system.

Just because things used to be different, doesn't mean they were better. Shops have always been pretty boring. Before runic materials were a thing, they would just get stuffed with other crafting materials or with enchanted gear. The idea that the lottery system somehow makes them more boring is silly to me, although if you honestly believe it, I'd love to hear an actual reason why.

You know what idea makes me sad and needs to die? The idea that you needed OOC coordination at all to get a shop in the old system.

"Need" is putting it strongly, but I would definitely argue that it was a key component to the typical transition. If you wanted a shop, your options were to either get really, really lucky, or have friends willing to hand theirs over. Shop owners usually had a lot of friends to choose from, and so they would usually choose their inheritors based on ooc rapport. Anyone who did anything otherwise was a rare exception. The core difference to the system now is that you don't need to be really, really lucky - just a normal amount of lucky. I do think I prefer this as a general premise.

If any system is made more advantageous by OOC communication, then it should be adjusted to reduce that advantage. This is why there's muling scripts, and XP reduction for larger parties, and rules against big brother behavior. The less I feel like I have to talk to people behind green text, the better. If we could just eliminate the need to look at the wiki or discord, we would finally have the perfect server and we could all at last be at peace.

[Arienette]

I must be missing something in regards to this “OOC coordination” thing.

Character A: I have this shop here, and I can’t keep it full! I always see you selling wands around town, want to sell them in my shop?

Character B: That would be great! Thank you ever so much for being inclusive and sharing this resource with me.

2 months later

Character A: I am going to be leaving the island soon. Would you like to take over the shop? I can release it and you can buy the lease.

Character B: I would like that very much. Hey, character C, want to help me fill this shop?

No OOC coordination, no green text required except for MAYBE a Tell or three to specify shop permissions to a player who is not familiar with the mechanics of it.

This was common in the old days, and is impossible now.

I also don’t see what is “boring” about selling the sorts of things people need to buy. Make a ton of gold and the. Use the gold to do interesting things. But I guess that’s subjective.

There’s absolutely no reason you can’t own a shop filled with 20 useful items and 10 interesting story books or whatever it is you get enjoyment out of selling. I bet you could find a shop owner right now who perpetually has 5-10 empty spots who would be delighted to sell your interesting flavor items!

[Party in the forest at midnight]

I think the problem is blown out of proportion. Shops being more accessible hasn't changed the amount of people playing the server. People interested in having a shop presumably still play the server. So it makes me ask, what's actually going on then? What's changed? Where's all those merchants that existed before? Or are inactive people not hoarding shops anymore? It's much easier to get a shop than it used to be, so anyone who is serious about wanting to run a shop will be able to get one. All of those old shop holders could, theoretically, still run a shop.

I like the new system a lot. If I play a new character it lets me have a shot at getting a shop without having to wait for an OOC friend to get sick of having theirs and offer it to me. And this 100% did happen and was the primary way of getting a shop, claiming otherwise is pretty strange.

The random shop quality also rewards going and exploring shops and seeing what people are selling. I found a whole lot of gem dust I need in a shop for 2k yesterday, it was a great find.

Overall I think this is one of the top quality of life changes that has happened over the last two years. I used to feel hesitation any time I was shelving my character, because I felt like I'd never get a shop again. There's no hesitation anymore, no attachment to video game property. Because I feel like I can get a shop again as long as I take the time to run around each day looking.

Magi, I look forward to seeing your book shop. This sort of thing is one of the benefits of the new system, it gives players who want to try something different an opportunity to do so.

[msheeler]

If you wanted a shop, your options were to either get really, really lucky, or have friends willing to hand theirs over. Shop owners usually had a lot of friends to choose from, and so they would usually choose their inheritors based on ooc rapport. Anyone who did anything otherwise was a rare exception.

I would like to see actual proof / data behind this statement. Personally I am of the opinion that this is entirely a false statement based on an individual's experience. Sort of generalizing that what you experienced was the truth for all others. When I decided that I wanted a shop the first time it took a bit of RP and then I had one. It wasn't hard at all, it just required some effort to actually try and get a shop on my part. Now the entirety of the effort is in having the time to wander around and see what is open for bid.

[xanrael]

Going to be hard to generate actual statistics on that for proof when direct signs of OOC friendship are not in the logs. Communicating with someone often gives you more opportunities to learn they plan to give up a shop as well as for them to learn you're interested in acquiring a shop.

If a friend and the owner talk 20x a day and a stranger and owner talk 1x a week then the friend has an advantage to grasp the opportunity. That also doesn't mean that the stranger couldn't get lucky or put in the legwork through RP over a bit of time to come out on top. It doesn't have to be anything sinister, just human networking at work.

[Cutieriot]

One thing I agree with is the quality of shops right now. There are plenty of great shops, but shops with a single item or junk is more common. The temporary shops especially in Cordor seem to surpass the majority of shops in quality.

[AstralUniverse]

The new system isnt really responsible for the quality of the goods being sold. It just goes to show how entrenched shops were in the previous system. Few shops would fall into the hands of a clueless new player and at the same time many players who bought a shop from someone for absurd amount of coin would then feel pressured to stock it as efficiently as possible and invest a lot more time into it because of the investment they need to now return or they feel dumb and wasteful if they dont.

The average goods quality being lower than it used to be is simply a result of the system working as intended and allowing new/clueless/casual players with no deep IC or OOC network of associates to get their hands on shops. It means that hypothetically in an alternative system that wants to accomplish the same thing, there will always be this downside of lower goods quality in average.

[ElvenEdibles]

Without actual proof of all this ooc supposed coordination its just a convenient strawman

[Arienette]

It really is. Every shop exchange I was part of or witnessed back in the old days was IC driven, or at least had enough IC drive to be plausible.

Maybe that just means I’m not cool enough to be part of these OOC shop cabals.

[Scylon]

- High end craftables (high DC = requires high lvl crafter)

Agreed on both.

Besides those things I also like to see shops dedicated to just selling crafting materials, which are perfect use for low level character shop and I also like weird loot stuff most people think is useless but isnt to me, and ironically you tend to find those being sold by the clueless, next to a bunch of true garbage.

To me it just feels more organic, is all. Also people can learn, and they'll learn faster by trial and error.

Funny you mentioned that. It is literally what I sell in mine. just raw crafting mats. And they sell VERY well

couple of other odds and ends in there, but that is generally "useful junk" i flog off for dirt cheap just to get rid of it for more then 350 gold at a vendor.

[Xerah]

I actually just created a new character and was kind of amazed at the state of the shops when trying to outfit them with 150k. There were so few dual stat items that I was looking for (just basic STR/CON) that I had to make over half of it myself. Most of the shops are filled with named loot drop equipment that no one ever needs to use ever--and it's just a massive waste of space.

Still, I prefer the way it is now.

[AstralUniverse]

Without actual proof of all this ooc supposed coordination its just a convenient strawman

Just because we dont want to turn this thread into public shaming of people (including ourselves, because all of the server was guilty of this pretty much. It was how shops are) doesnt make it a convenient strawman argument. You may not accept it and you may not like it but it was the reality with shops for many many years.

[Vyrandil Rivorndir]

Regarding the matter of Citizenship, Proof of Citizenship, etc.

There is the potential for some roleplay enriching feature that isn't "click a few buttons in a closet" as other people described it. Citizenship could come with something similar to what the Sencliff Ink comes with, or even just a 1x1 item - or an Innate Ability addition - or even just a -command that allows you to produce proof of citizenship.

From a narrative sense, if you're a registered citizen who can vote and paid your money to be recognized as a citizen, it's nonsensical to just walk out the door and hope the senile man with quill and book that talks to dozens of people every hour remembers you, without some kind of proof, receipt or verifiable source.

Also opens up for the future potential of forgery if that is a venue that is something folks want to explore. People have the choice to not show the papers if they feel that's necessary, I guess.

"But City Official, this enables people to just make it harder for <XYZ Barred Entity> from entering!"
It's as hard for you as it was before, most likely, and you could simply say a visitor, traveller, merchant, passing through mercenary, I don't know. You don't need to hinge on "MUH CITIZENSHIP" as your only thing. You also didn't pick up the citizenship, after all. Actions and their byproduct!



Matter of Shops!

New System = Good - for the most part!

There are weird and awkward omissions of the Bid system out there that need to be addressed, and has been flagged to the Team from my side, at least.

Now, I say for the most part because I do think there should be some modicum of control for Cities, because they have a vested interest in shops doing well. Bad Shops = Bad Economy = Struggle to pay employees/whatever. So a sub-section of shops in each City could be considered "Essentials" for the economy contributions so City administrations have some say in who gets at least parts of the shops, to ensure it goes to people willing to put in the effort as well while also leaving ample amounts of shops for everyone who just wants to yeet some +1 Disc +1 Parry +1 Con belt in there. Have at it lads.



Final Addition regarding the "Citizen List of Old" - I don't think it was a bad thing, I just think there are better features that can replace both that and the obscurity we got now. I did hear down the grapevine when I started out - since it was -way- before my time - it was removed because not only was it causing weird bloat and lag but it was -supposedly- weaponized in PvP beause it used to make servers lag? This is entirely word of mouth so I don't know how truthful it is, but it could explain its removal back in the day.