Dirgesinger Assassin Feedback

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Heroic Spirit
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Dirgesinger Assassin Feedback

Post by Heroic Spirit » Sat Sep 17, 2022 10:44 pm

Bard/Dirgesinger/Assassin (Dirgesin) is a really awesome concept, but the execution seems to fall a bit short in a few places.

It lacks durability. All three classes have a d6 hit die. At level 30 with CON fully buffed (26 from base 14), they're flirting with 420 hp. To compensate, they need toughness, but as the build is already feat heavy, this means they're losing either improved critical or improved expertise.

Against a mage, a few IGSM can take them out of the fight without much hassle.

Versus martial classes, with epic dodge, the build has a decent defense. Of course, all of the cards need to be on the table (curse and bard song, dirge: terror, and dirge: woe). However, this requires heavy wind-up. Roguish classes are designed to offload their damage as quickly as possible from stealth in most cases. The dirge and song windup causes Dirgesin to lose out on its Death Attack opener. If the Dirgesin starts with Death Attack and none of the other effects are active, the likelihood of landing any attacks is slim.

Assuming everything goes right: All dirges and songs are active and the Dirgesin is up against a melee combatant, their dueling power is great. Even with all of this, they lack any finishing pressure. After the initial burst, the target can simply walk away, as the Dirgesin has little else to follow up with. It lacks the damage potential of other assassin builds due to the inability to fit ITWF into the build. A Swash/Assassin build will get more AB, more damage, and more output in comparison without requiring wind up to be effective. While Dirgesin does get a little boost from misericorde, it doesn’t really stack up to the output of other assassin builds that focus on being purely offensive, and it has to waste time setting up situations. Its damage(outside of cooldown dirge abilities, which are really only a one-time use in most PvP scenarios) is limited to solo target. It is incredibly toothless outside of that and it is very reliant upon death attacks to do any noticeable damage.

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Re: Dirgesinger Assassin Feedback

Post by Heroic Spirit » Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:01 pm

Continuing this, when Dirgesinger was first tested, the dirges were instant cast. This was reeled in quickly after it was noted that builds could cast and apply the dirges all at once (See hellball / gruin). At the time, harvest also did significantly more damage. As assassins have no offensive spells to cast, the dirgesinger synergy could remove their cast time.

This is sort of a bandage fix, barring any extensive reworks.

Another idea to alleviate their wind-up is empowering Darkness. When empowered the spell could apply curse song to any enemies within the area of effect. This is something that could either happen innately or be added as a feat selection.

For a boost to damage, Misericorde (or Momento Mori?) could add the death attack hit die (1d6 every 2 assassin levels). This adds up to an average of 28 damage for 16 assassin.

Regarding their HP, something along the lines of Harvest adding hours/level temp hp or raising the Assassin HD to match Shadowdancer and Rogue would benefit the build combination.

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Re: Dirgesinger Assassin Feedback

Post by Heroic Spirit » Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:02 pm

Granted, this is a difficult discussion, because as far as I am aware only two players are using this build on live.

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Re: Dirgesinger Assassin Feedback

Post by Heroic Spirit » Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:29 pm

Image

Regarding gear, Assassins are shoehorned into utilizing Bluff, as their only class armor confers a +5 bonus. Conversely, Dirgesin is forced to place points into Perform instead in order to boost the DC of their dirges and the level of their song. This means that they're losing disguise strength and DCs, as there isn't a feasible alternate chest slot item.

To resolve this, adding +5 perform to the armor OR allowing their Dirges and Song to scale with Bluff instead of Perform might work.

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Re: Dirgesinger Assassin Feedback

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:18 pm

Heroic Spirit wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:29 pm
Image

Regarding gear, Assassins are shoehorned into utilizing Bluff, as their only class armor confers a +5 bonus. Conversely, Dirgesin is forced to place points into Perform instead in order to boost the DC of their dirges and the level of their song. This means that they're losing disguise strength and DCs, as there isn't a feasible alternate chest slot item.

To resolve this, adding +5 perform to the armor OR allowing their Dirges and Song to scale with Bluff instead of Perform might work.
Items that have Bluff should have Perform on them too. This was a standardization decision we made a while ago. This will be corrected.

The rest I need time to consider. If you have other ideas and feedback, please keep me in the loop.

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Re: Dirgesinger Assassin Feedback

Post by Heroic Spirit » Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:01 am

In Sorrow We Trust wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:18 pm
Items that have Bluff should have Perform on them too. This was a standardization decision we made a while ago. This will be corrected.
Awesome! In this case, the Assassin's Belt also needs to be standardized as it still gives only bluff.

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Re: Dirgesinger Assassin Feedback

Post by Heroic Spirit » Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:16 am

The only other thing that I can think of at present is their weaker Blinding Speed. Assuming no slow, and it is always activated when the cooldown is over:
  • Swash IB Assassin has no cooldown for an infinite duration.
  • Rogue (4) Fighter (8) Assassin (16) has their cooldown reduced by 3 turns, for a 2 turn cooldown.
  • Swash (10) Fighter (4) Assassin (16) has their cooldown reduced by 4 turns, with a 1 turn cooldown.
  • Dirgesin's only cooldown reducing class is Assassin, for a reduction of 2 turns; a 3 turn cooldown

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Re: Dirgesinger Assassin Feedback

Post by Dreams » Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:46 am

Should design decisions really be made based on who's complained the most recently/most/loudest? I ask this because changes seem to be made for really specific situations without regard to how it further plays out. For example, Murder's Rainment has now been nerfed to the point that it wouldn't be considered anymore. The amount of bluff/spot are what made it competitive and special compared to other options.

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Old Stats:
Armor Bonus: +3 (AC Armor Modifier)
Enchantment Bonus: Intelligence +2
Skill Bonus: Bluff +5
Skill Bonus: Spot +5
Skill Bonus: Move Silently +2
Skill Bonus: Hide +2
Runic (Thorass)
Only Useable By: Assassin
Increased UMD Requirement (40)

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(New Stats):
- +2 Intelligence
- +3 AC Bonus
- +3 Bluff
- +3 Hide
- +3 Move Silently
- +3 Perform
- +3 Spot

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Re: Dirgesinger Assassin Feedback

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:24 am

Dreams wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:46 am
Should design decisions really be made based on who's complained the most recently/most/loudest? I ask this because changes seem to be made for really specific situations without regard to how it further plays out. For example, Murder's Rainment has now been nerfed to the point that it wouldn't be considered anymore. The amount of bluff/spot are what made it competitive and special compared to other options.

Code: Select all

Old Stats:
Armor Bonus: +3 (AC Armor Modifier)
Enchantment Bonus: Intelligence +2
Skill Bonus: Bluff +5
Skill Bonus: Spot +5
Skill Bonus: Move Silently +2
Skill Bonus: Hide +2
Runic (Thorass)
Only Useable By: Assassin
Increased UMD Requirement (40)

Code: Select all

(New Stats):
- +2 Intelligence
- +3 AC Bonus
- +3 Bluff
- +3 Hide
- +3 Move Silently
- +3 Perform
- +3 Spot
+5 is too high. We have been making adjustments to many items.

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Re: Dirgesinger Assassin Feedback

Post by Heroic Spirit » Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:09 pm

Dreams wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:46 am
Should design decisions really be made based on who's complained the most recently/most/loudest? I ask this because changes seem to be made for really specific situations without regard to how it further plays out. For example, Murder's Rainment has now been nerfed to the point that it wouldn't be considered anymore. The amount of bluff/spot are what made it competitive and special compared to other options.
Most of the armors now give +3 to their respective skills. There are some fringe cases of items that give +4 or +5, but those items only have two skills total.

It's less about who's complaining the loudest or most recently, though. This thread is for pointing out the issues with a very specific build.

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Re: Dirgesinger Assassin Feedback

Post by Heroic Spirit » Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:22 pm

Don't mean to necro this thread, but I was asked to post anything regarding this class here:

We'll start with a quote from another player using bard/dirge/assassin:
The bard nerf kind of put the nail in the coffin for dirge/sin tbh in its current state
It just doesn't do enough damage to actually be able to finish anything in the current meta with healing pots/other class abilities and it doesn't have the defense to survive the new classes either. There's so many ridiculously powerful offensive/defensive builds right now out there
And now it's had it's utility cut
--

In the earlier posts, I referenced that dirge/sin falls short in two areas:

Durability (Uses three 6 hit-die classes)

Damage (Misses out from DA / assassinate flurries due to lack of dual-wielding)
Additionally, in order for the dirge/sin to reliably hit any targets, a curse song has to be performed as well, which means the PC can't open with a death attack.

---
Below: Suggestions to bring the damage more in line:

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Add the death attack die to the damage of Misericorde (1d6 /2  assassin levels)
(This option adds more bursting power to the Misericorde instant attack.)
or

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Add death attack die to the damage of Dirges / Curse song)
(this option gives a bit of burst to the dirges /curse song )
or

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Let dirges and curse song mark affected targets for a short duration .
this would function exactly like -assassinate, but for entropy damage.
this would stack with -assassinate as well.)
( gives a more consistent damage pattern of weaving dirges in between flurries, which sounds a bit more fun on paper

--
Regarding durability:

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rhapsody of blood can be given features to help pad their squishiness by converting a portion of the dirge/curse song/misericorde damage to temporary hp.
The last bit is in regards to Blinding Speed:
The only other thing that I can think of at present is their weaker Blinding Speed. Assuming no slow, and it is always activated when the cooldown is over:
Swash IB Assassin has no cooldown for an infinite duration.
Rogue (4) Fighter (8) Assassin (16) has their cooldown reduced by 3 turns, for a 2 turn cooldown.
Swash (10) Fighter (4) Assassin (16) has their cooldown reduced by 4 turns, with a 1 turn cooldown.
Dirgesin's only cooldown reducing class is Assassin, for a reduction of 2 turns; a 3 turn cooldown

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I would go so far as to let the assassin count as undead for the 15% speed boost allotted to undead from bard song.
Or just add a portion of dirgesinger synergy to blinding speed to aid with any slipperiness.

--- bards/dirgesingers overall --

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boost the dirge spell: reapplythe save for str and dex draining. let failed saves also do xd6 sonic and xd6 entropy damage
(where any passing save does a smaller amount)
This makes it a less boring spell choice, as the damage vulnerability alone isn’t worth standing in melee range.

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Re: Dirgesinger Assassin Feedback

Post by Ceyella » Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:36 pm

I only just saw this, sorry it’s a bit late - I play 4 bard 16 assassin 10 dirge. I get 48 AC / 45 AB and horrible horrible HP when song, full buff, etc, items. now with bard song being heard if you do anything besides selfish solo, that’s all I use. It makes sense for bard, I get it. But as it stands your a entire build focused on PvP with substandard PvP stats. I use specific songs for specific buffs but, selfish solo is bugged and I’ve had PVE enemies hear me and rush me down, when those same enemies I regularly ran by before.

With the rule change we have to say something before PvP I’m denied the death attack dice unless I get some lucky set up or wind up, which is rare. Overall I think I’m the only person stupid enough to actually play this, which is sad given the work put into it.

I get theirs probaly some design philosophy, but it seems wild to me some stuff gets 60 AB/AC and it’s not a issue but giving assassin a buff is? It’s been heavily out dated and lagging behind for awhile. I know it does not affect many players being a PRC class, but I’d like to argue the fact it’s a token class (restricted) that can be removed at any point gives it more justification to be a bit strong. I hold myself to a higher standard because of it. If we get say 55 AB and some abuse this to run around killing new players for no reason it can be easily removed from said player.

The level 10 assassin dirge +1 APR is an amazing addition to fix not having a martial dip. Perhaps something like “characters with atleast 15 assassin levels and 10 dirgesinger levels receive an additional +2 AB when using a weapon one size smaller than their base race.” Similar to the assassin Hidden danger bonus.

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Re: Dirgesinger Assassin Feedback

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:47 am

The entire idea to mix up assassin with a singer class is just bad. Sorry. It needs to be said. You cant just take a class that wants to be in stealth as much as possible and add a million and one abilities who break stealth and destroy all the kill pressure.

It would need to be overpowered in stats in order to perform like a normal build and that's never a good sign in class balancing.
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I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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