Smashing Chests

[Naghast]

Although i'm fairly sure Irongron was being sarcastic there.

[Slapstick]

Jesus...

For the record, that's not what I meant. I was just making a point.

I used to think you were cool man, what did you do? WHAT DID YOU DO!?

[solar separation]

Although i'm fairly sure Irongron was being sarcastic there.

i hope to god he is because it's not even remotely being asked for or really warranted by any of this

[Atlus]

That's gonna heavily discourage further feedback on any topic.

We've reached levels of disconnect between the staff and community never imagined before.

[Good Character]

What if we completely stripped chests accessible through normal dungeon crawling of any traps and locks but lower the quality of items from them? In its stead secret rooms can be discoverable through Search and have high DCs that require true Open Lock/Disable Trap investments? These secret rooms will have higher quality items.

[Aren]

This is a bug fix, nothing more. The only issue is that we didn't detect and fix it sooner - smashing chests was (really quite understandably) never intended as a means to open chests. I'm rather surprised at quite how many think it should be.

Honestly? From a game-play perspective these chests arent *really* locked. Any character with some gear and 1 rank disarm traps will be able to easily reach the DC and disarm epic traps. For detection with have detect traps, and lenses of detection with no umd check, and for opening chests we have Knock scrolls with what... 10 lore requirement?

These chests arent *really* locked. They arent gated behind anything that requires a Rogue or anything like that. It just, at this point, requires the mandatory inventory space and gold tax to have the gear to open it, on literally any character.

So if the chests arent really locked and everyone can open them without any real investment beyond QoL, then a lot of players are wondering what are these locks even for...

Like... dont kill me for saying this but if we're going this route, we might as well raise the lore requirement on Knock and traps' disarm DC, otherwise it really is just nothing beyond a drop in QoL, for nothing too thematic or immersive as a reward.

I actually agree. I'll look at significantly raising the requirements to open locked chests, at least some of them.

Hello Irongron,

Can you elaborate as to if this is a joke or an actual decision?

Kind regards

[Irongron]

Again, the change here was unintended. We had already done a great deal to make it easier to access chests, given that many of them aren't even locked (this was not always the case).

I totally get the frustration with gear swapping, but locks on chest being purely cosmetic is not a path I will go down. As before, and as intended it will simply mean that smashing a chest as a % chance of destroying some, or all, of the objects inside. This is entirely reasonable.

As for knock scrolls? I wasn't actually being sarcastic, their utility remains far too strong, even after the recent door DC barrier; for the most part a cheap scroll continues to bypass an entire skill. I think an improved chest generation script, where the DC of the lock is randomly generated (albeit within certain parameters) makes sense, so that some fall beyond knock.

Making changes (or in this cases fixes) that annoy players, who naturally will vote for 'free stuff' above restrictions isn't the most enjoyable part of this job, but iti s necessary. It is something I will time and again finding myself coming back to. Whether it is nerfing summons, items, curtailing class power creep or limiting UMD I always find myself facing the same accusation - that I'm destroying people's fun, ruining their QoL or simply making the game more frustrating. Of course I want people to play here, and enjoy the experience, but that doesn't mean I'm determined that every decision I make will be popular. Sometimes the answer is going to be 'no'.

Can locked treasure containers on Arelith be accessed, without any inconvience, simply by smashing them into a thousand pieces.

No.

(That is not to say there isn't some theoretical system that might be far better and nuanced than using Pick Lock/Disarm Trap but it's really not anything we are working on right now, or intending to)

[solar separation]

As for knock scrolls? I wasn't actually being sarcastic, their utility remains far too strong, even after the recent door DC barrier; for the most part a cheap scroll continues to bypass an entire skill. I think an improved chest generation script, where the DC of the lock is randomly generated (albeit within certain parameters) makes sense, so that some fall beyond knock.

please do not

[richardio]

Whether it is nerfing summons, items, curtailing class power creep or limiting UMD I always find myself facing the same accusation - that I'm destroying people's fun, ruining their QoL or simply making the game more frustrating.

It's because you are.

[jomonog]

And what about the pixies?

*runs away*

[Irongron]

The issue, that people are pointing to, is gear swapping.

But that's a NWN thing, not even Arelith.

Search, Appraise, Leadership, Pick Lock, Disarm Trap, Sail, Heal, the list goes on and on.

Is it frustrating? Sure, but it's the same underlying reason that sorcerers don't need to carry certain scrolls - some characters require items to do so stuff that they can't otherwise do.

But gear-swapping, as I stated above is not just limited to locks and chests, and the solution, I am 100% sure isn't just to say 'You know what? let's just let people do everything it would allow anyway, that'll fix it!'

Sure, we could remove all skill bonuses from items, or (as we have in some cases) code it so only 'hard' ranks count, but is that really what people would want? Again, skill boneses on gear? That's a fundamental NWN/D&D thing, and not limited to Arelith.

[Atlus]

This is just another notch on the blade in a series of changes and upkeep that condemns the majority and continues leaving those with organized groups ahead of the curve in getting what they want. This server promotes spontaneous roleplay and interaction but ultimately endorses premade groups and meta efficiency instead.

These changes almost always only hurt those scraping the lower rungs.

[AstralUniverse]

But how does it nerf Bard?

[Ebonstar]

This is great that nothing is left but coin. And it should be small amounts left as well 100 or less when a chest is bashed.

Crafting special lock gear for mundanes should be removed as well. The whole excuse for i wont be able to solo because of my time zone to get fancy loot without my gear that I should never have to begin with will end as well.

or even better make the special lock/trap gear require a 10-15 point open lock / disable trap investment.

The comment that rogues only stealth chests is rather wrong assuming everyone who plays a rogue does that.

remove open and disable from bards and pixie familiars would complete this fix and actually make parties seek out the specialists.
More party grouping is always better for RP and remember thats what we do here on Arelith.

Mages will have to use a knock spell, and will have to find a rogue for top tier chests. Str bashers will only be bashing once or twice when they find out they lose coin and items and barely get shares to buy a healing kit or two, and god forbid they have to make friends who have skill sets they do not.

All those who say changes like this makes QoL poor, or the game hard, need to remember this is not WoW or other MMO crapshows.

Dungeons & Dragons has never been a take the easy path you always win sort of game.

Arelith should not be that way either.

[Paint]

Let's make baseless predictions and conjecture about what this change does:

• The upfront investment for characters that can't meaningfully invest skillpoints into disable trap and open lock is going to feel a lot steeper than it did previously unless they're explicitly partying in a small, premade group that is designed to maximize profit.
• I think in the short term, what we're going to see is that the price of precious gems and rare findables like mithril dust are going to increase by about 10-15%. In the long run, I think characters that require a lot of upfront gear costs and rely on a lot of consumables are going to be a lot less attractive to people.
• I think the conversation about the amount of money mundanes need to burn to reliably function in PVE at lower levels is going to pop up in the forums a few more times.
• That being said, knock scrolls will probably mitigate a lot of it. They're cheap, easy to get, stack well, and essentially would act as a consumable toll for any given chest you run into. I've had knock wands on characters before, and I probably will again. But some traps on chests continue to activate more than once. You'll still be missing out on a lot of loot.
• At later levels, it does mean that certain character archetypes are just going to be more wealthy than others. I think mundane are going to be more gunshy about running dungeons alone, and therefore, won't be able to turn a profit as much as say a hexblade or a wizard with a pixie might. Ironically, wizards, who historically, don't need all that much gold to function, will have a much easier time getting it in the foreseeable future.
• We'll probably see certain dungeons becoming more congested -- namely, dungeons where the enemies have more consistently profitable drops such as plentiful scrolls.

I don't think this is the end of the world, though. A lot of this is offset by just playing in a group, but it will make solo players, characters who can't reliably fit into groups, and players who typically play during Arelith's slow hours struggle a lot more during their low levels and early to mid levels.

It's up to you to decide if any of this is good or bad. I personally do think that more tools need to be used. I just don't see how treasure chests have been or ever will be a meaningful obstacle.

So if I have any suggestion about any of this it's this: Take a look at the health of the Arelith marketplace right now. Consider how much the average martial spends to gear themselves not just in epics, but along the way, and figure out whether or not they'll be able to survive losing out on more than half of the amount of coin they'd be getting on every dungeon run.

[Slapstick]

This is great that nothing is left but coin. And it should be small amounts left as well 100 or less when a chest is bashed.

Crafting special lock gear for mundanes should be removed as well. The whole excuse for i wont be able to solo because of my time zone to get fancy loot without my gear that I should never have to begin with will end as well.

or even better make the special lock/trap gear require a 10-15 point open lock / disable trap investment.

The comment that rogues only stealth chests is rather wrong assuming everyone who plays a rogue does that.

remove open and disable from bards and pixie familiars would complete this fix and actually make parties seek out the specialists.
More party grouping is always better for RP and remember thats what we do here on Arelith.

Mages will have to use a knock spell, and will have to find a rogue for top tier chests. Str bashers will only be bashing once or twice when they find out they lose coin and items and barely get shares to buy a healing kit or two, and god forbid they have to make friends who have skill sets they do not.

All those who say changes like this makes QoL poor, or the game hard, need to remember this is not WoW or other MMO crapshows.

Dungeons & Dragons has never been a take the easy path you always win sort of game.

Arelith should not be that way either.

The only thing this will result in is mandatory multi-classing and skill dumps. I don't see how that benefits anyone.

[Ebonstar]

This is just another notch on the blade in a series of changes and upkeep that condemns the majority and continues leaving those with organized groups ahead of the curve in getting what they want. This server promotes spontaneous roleplay and interaction but ultimately endorses premade groups and meta efficiency instead.

These changes almost always only hurt those scraping the lower rungs.

nothing is stopping you from making friends who have a variety of skills. Those groups you mention had to do this, so why is it stopping you from doing the same.

simply form your own group and stop scraping.

[Ebonstar]

This is great that nothing is left but coin. And it should be small amounts left as well 100 or less when a chest is bashed.

Crafting special lock gear for mundanes should be removed as well. The whole excuse for i wont be able to solo because of my time zone to get fancy loot without my gear that I should never have to begin with will end as well. ....

The only thing this will result in is mandatory multi-classing and skill dumps. I don't see how that benefits anyone.

Not even close, and noone is going to waste on skill dumps anymore just to avoid grouping up.

What is it that you fear about having a party? oh mygosh you may have to share loot.

Just go to the load screen for the Nomad or other taverns, it shows a group preparing for their next outing, not a solo I can do everything superstar.

[Cutieriot]

While I personally dislike the change (Fix), we might actually get crafted items in more shops rather than the same trident.


Suggestion: Have some chests spawn unlocked/trap free like 5 percent per reset

[chris a gogo]

No problem with the bug fix.

But as many have mentioned the infi traps are bad design remove them or even give them charges so if you can't beat that anoying gas trap DC you can at least soak up the damage and still get the reward after opening it.

[Slapstick]

No problem with the bug fix.

But as many have mentioned the infi traps are bad design remove them or even give them charges so if you can't beat that anoying gas trap DC you can at least soak up the damage and still get the reward after opening it.

all traps can be removed with 1 point and gear, so it's really not anymore of an issue than the locks themselves.

[Subtext]

I want to say, I find the outrage to be a little bit mind boggling.

One can argue if it's a good idea to have all chests generally locked and trapped. I don't think that needs to be the case but it's beside the point.

1) The main source of money through dungeon delving is most certainly not the chests. Except for a very few cases whatever you pick up from dead bodies will far outweigh any chest loot.

2) If you're really going for cash, the best methods don't require opening anything. Chests are just that...extra loot. The real money comes from pilfering dead bodies and some other places that I won't mention here.

3) Getting the extra stuff requires either a moderate skill investment or a tiny one and some inconvenience. Yes, that might negatively affect your highly optimised build but I do not think people generally get to have their cake and eat it too here.
Generally, in between appraise, search, open lock, lore and disable trap, playing a money printer is a deep investment.

4) I actually don't think every chest needs to be locked. That goes especially for runic chests (outside of the really easy runic dungeons) or generally chests that can be considered the main objective of a dungeon. It would suck getting blueballed on those because you can't find someone with the skill investment.

5) Nevertheless, this change still makes me resent bards even more. I shouldn't be able to open any chest thrown at me without having invested anything into dex and having no gear at all...just with a single skill point.

[I will never sleep]

good lord that is not what i expected to read

Guess I'll get ready for the random 80 dc chests. Or... i'll just continue to bash them anyway and eat a loot penalty now instead of waste time and inventory space on such.

also, when I gear swap in the vanilla game it is for something that is relevant to the actual content, like for instance, the fear immunity belt. Not for... opening a chest. or being on a boat.

[Atlus]

All those who say changes like this makes QoL poor, or the game hard, need to remember this is not WoW or other MMO crapshows.

Dungeons & Dragons has never been a take the easy path you always win sort of game.

Arelith should not be that way either.

Arelith isn't a game you play with a small group of personal close friends around a table in a personally constructed narrative where all interactions, combat, and loot is actively tailored by the dungeon master for the positive experience of this group, rarely if ever with the exceptional goal of failure or tedium for the participants, but to have a fulfilling and fun experience without needing to compete or fight with one another. The spirit of a tabletop game isn't competitive.

D&D doesn't require you to make a clandestine group with other players through OOC means like discord and use meta-knowledge and communications to maximize efficiency, which mind you is generally looked down upon based on how it's done while also competing with over a hundred other players, likely with like-minded groups all fighting over a minimal pool of materials and resources to create equipment in a living economy to further participate in the game lest you be locked out by inefficiency caused by exclusivity over late game gear.

Last I checked Arelith is a "MMO crapshow" and trying to undermine a perceived notion of how the game should work versus how it's actually playing out isn't helpful, and if anything refuses to acknowledge the changes of the times on how these changes are perverse and demanding the community to play one way while at the same time wagging the finger at the loose definition of what's okay or not.

Your entire point honestly boils down to an attempt at making rogues relevant by making everyone else useless and subsequently suffer without one. What's the final goal in that? Why even have chest bashing? Is it solely to grief people with now? Chest bashing breaking the contents of a chest isn't even in official D&D rules.

Arelith isn't anything like base NWN or D&D. There is a heavy caveat of personal agency and a stipulation of acquiring money to make equipment. You're not going to always have a dedicated or trustworthy group to help you, you aren't going to find the perfect weapon as a random drop of loot, and you can't scrape by through the entire game on mediocre means. Arelith is built very selfishly, and changes like this will ultimately make it more difficult to sustain the characters that don't have those specific tools.

[Aren]

The issue, that people are pointing to, is gear swapping.

But that's a NWN thing, not even Arelith.

Search, Appraise, Leadership, Pick Lock, Disarm Trap, Sail, Heal, the list goes on and on.

Is it frustrating? Sure, but it's the same underlying reason that sorcerers don't need to carry certain scrolls - some characters require items to do so stuff that they can't otherwise do.

But gear-swapping, as I stated above is not just limited to locks and chests, and the solution, I am 100% sure isn't just to say 'You know what? let's just let people do everything it would allow anyway, that'll fix it!'

Sure, we could remove all skill bonuses from items, or (as we have in some cases) code it so only 'hard' ranks count, but is that really what people would want? Again, skill boneses on gear? That's a fundamental NWN/D&D thing, and not limited to Arelith.

That’s entirely fair Irongron. This is your server - you get to make that call. All I can do as a mere player is to speak my mind, in a hopefully respectful manner, to provide some insight into the way some players think and feel. As always, thank you for taking time to respond.