Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

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Amateur Hour
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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Amateur Hour » Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:42 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:01 pm
...if they cannot bid while owning it means that less people will be bidding on shops in general, as only those without shops already are able to bid and for every person with a shop that's choosing to bid, there's another shop getting released somewhere.
I think you underestimate the risks people are willing to take.

I currently have a character who owns a shop in a "bad" location and manages the finances for another shop in an excellent location; the excellent shop moves more than an order of magnitude more in coin despite the bad shop having many of the same goods at moderately lower prices. Under your system? I'd gladly give up that shop for a chance to bid on something better, because it's barely worth the shop rent since almost no one passes it. Once I give it up, that means that shop's genuinely completely useless for 4 days before anyone else gets it, realizes how little traffic it gets no matter how good your goods are (frankly, I think most people don't even know there's a shop there), then drops it to bid on something better.

Fast shop turnover is bad for everyone.

Rolled: Solveigh Arnimayne, "Anna Locksley"
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AstralUniverse
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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:44 am

Amateur Hour wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:42 am
AstralUniverse wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:01 pm
...if they cannot bid while owning it means that less people will be bidding on shops in general, as only those without shops already are able to bid and for every person with a shop that's choosing to bid, there's another shop getting released somewhere.
I think you underestimate the risks people are willing to take.

I currently have a character who owns a shop in a "bad" location and manages the finances for another shop in an excellent location; the excellent shop moves more than an order of magnitude more in coin despite the bad shop having many of the same goods at moderately lower prices. Under your system? I'd gladly give up that shop for a chance to bid on something better, because it's barely worth the shop rent since almost no one passes it. Once I give it up, that means that shop's genuinely completely useless for 4 days before anyone else gets it, realizes how little traffic it gets no matter how good your goods are (frankly, I think most people don't even know there's a shop there), then drops it to bid on something better.

Fast shop turnover is bad for everyone.
it means that people like you (not that anything is wrong with your preferences in this) will be sitting without a shop for a while bidding for high tier shops along with god knows how many more people while the rest of us will get crappy location shops effortlessly and get by, until eventually people realize they make less coin without a shop than with a crappy shop and settle on some arbitrary middle ground.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


riffraff
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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by riffraff » Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:47 am

Popping my head up to give a newbie perspective again. For the record, I own a permanent shop (yay) and you can pry it from my cold, dead hands.

...Just kidding. But I have a shop in the Cordor bank.
Hrothgar Bloodaxe wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:51 pm

4. To all the responses of "Increasing prices will push away low-level players." I don't think that's necessarily the case.

A) You can have different prices, for shops. You can still keep some cheap shops open. And obviously in places like Skal, you can leave things as they are. And, per point #3, there will still be plenty of "starter shops" in remote areas, that will likely be available.

<snip>

C) [Allowing a new/inexperienced player to purchase a prime location they're not able/prepared to adequately manage, isn't giving them some sort of meaningful opportunity. I.e., allowing an inexperienced/low-level player, to own a shop in the middle of Cordor, isn't actually helping that player. They won't be able to stock it with items people want to purchase, so it won't get business, and it will likely either fold, or simply remain in limbo without generating any revenue for that person, or the settlement. This is currently what's taking place (either that, or high-level players who are just negligent). And while exceptions to this are certainly possible, I think basing rules on exceptional cases is generally not a great idea.
I think saying that new and low-level players can't run useful shops isn't fair. It's likely we can't or don't know how to cater to high-level players, but shops catering for low-level and newbies (items we need and more importantly can afford) are important and I noticed a lot cropped up recently. I may not make millions of gold a day, but my healing kits sell out faster than I can make them, so there's clearly high demand. I actually had someone thank my character for being constantly stocked as apparently her healing kits saved his life more than once!

Forcing us out into the sticks because we're new and poor seems a bit counter-intuitive to me. I started making good, regular gold when I finally won the bid on my shop. I update it most days (I try for everyday, but y'know, not always possible). I gather mats and craft until I'm out of crafting points and stock up. Maybe the leaders of Cordor shake their fists that I don't make as much money as other people might, but I make money every day (I also sell cheaper than the temple, so if you want a price hike, take it up with the Red Knight). If I had a shop in the middle of nowhere that didn't sell anything, I'd probably have given up on shops altogether and just stayed poor. I think it would also make being a crafter a hell of a lot harder and less fun.

Whilst I do have some loot junk in my shop right now, it's not my main seller, I just threw it in there a) in the hopes of making more than the peddler will buy it for and b) so no one can ever accuse me of having an empty stall. :lol: But I am selling them for hopefully reasonable prices - I do want them to shift and will lower the price if they don't.

And on that point...
Arienette wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:03 pm
The shops that are a problem for settlements are the ones that consistently stock 10 junk loot items for more than they are worth.

Its not uncommon to see these shops selling a +2 skil +1 stat ring for MORE than the cost to enchant it in the basin. These are the types of shops that harm settlements in terms of tax revenue, and provide no useful service to the community at large.
I think part of the problem here is, yes, people having no idea what the value should be. When I examine a looted ring and it tells me it's worth over 7000gp, I usually halve that (or more) and try to base it on if it's something at least I, as a newbie, would ever consider buying, because I know I wouldn't have bought it for that much. But that 7k estimate is just not helpful at all.
cold chuckle

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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Arienette » Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:40 am

riffraff wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:47 am

I think part of the problem here is, yes, people having no idea what the value should be. When I examine a looted ring and it tells me it's worth over 7000gp, I usually halve that (or more) and try to base it on if it's something at least I, as a newbie, would ever consider buying, because I know I wouldn't have bought it for that much. But that 7k estimate is just not helpful at all.

So, I should clarify something in case my opinion wasnt clear. IMO, There is absolutely nothing wrong with shops selling useful low level gear. And there is especially nothing wrong with it in Cordor. Cordor is the primary low-level starting point, and it also has more shops than basically all the other surface settlements COMBINED (Minus Guldorand), so it doesn't need to squeeze max revenue from all 50 of its shops.

So yes, its great when a shop in Cordor sells useful low-level gear. Scroll cases, gem pouches, jewelry boxes, crafted boots, crafted helmets, steel swords, and a host of other things are key to newbie survival and QOL, and are excellent things to sell even for "fancy" shops.

I know this sucks, but depending on exactly what Heal Kits you are making and their price, its entirely possible people with high appraise skill might be buying them to sell to the peddler for a profit.

You are correct that the "Gold Value" listed on an item has no basis on its actual value to other players.

AstralUniverse
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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:56 pm

Item's gold value simply represents what it's 'weight' in the Basin is and what an npc might sell it for. My 2 cents is we should all be using these gold value tags as an ooc thing rather than an IC price tag on the item itself (like I've seen people do sometimes). It is really far away from being a real problem but for the most part I think these tags should be ignored or just used to determine how 'fancy' the item might look to the character or how 'complex' it would be for basin work. But little beyond that and definitely not as an in game price tag to read in character, imo. It can definitely mislead new players.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


Eyeliner
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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Eyeliner » Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:59 pm

I think new and inexperienced players should absolutely be allowed to take on a high profile shop. If they're in over their heads and ask for help (or are wise enough to take help offered) they could take a serious step forward as a player and member of that settlement. Or they'll flop out and whatever, someone else will have it soon enough. Either way it's one of the best opportunities I can think of to squeeze RP from shop ownership.

Azensor
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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Azensor » Sun Sep 25, 2022 4:40 pm

Eh i have a low sale shop, mostly basic ‘adventurer’ items and rp items.. the profit from most items is anywhere from 20gp to 100gp.
The rent for the shop is around 800.. if that was increased? I’d have to ditch most if not all of the flavor items and sell crafted items only

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Nurel
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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Nurel » Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:35 pm

Azensor wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 4:40 pm
Eh i have a low sale shop, mostly basic ‘adventurer’ items and rp items.. the profit from most items is anywhere from 20gp to 100gp.
The rent for the shop is around 800.. if that was increased? I’d have to ditch most if not all of the flavor items and sell crafted items only
People often go out of their way to buy customized items, even if they are just RP items. If you wish to create added value for your wares, editing their names and descriptions can be a very viable way to achieve it. Just need to exercise creativity and patience
riffraff wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:47 am
I think part of the problem here is, yes, people having no idea what the value should be. When I examine a looted ring and it tells me it's worth over 7000gp, I usually halve that (or more) and try to base it on if it's something at least I, as a newbie, would ever consider buying, because I know I wouldn't have bought it for that much. But that 7k estimate is just not helpful at all.
The only good way to assess the marketable value of goods (crafted and found) is to walk around clicking on shops and finding out what it is people sell, and at what price. The more engaged you become with the trading minigame, the more you will learn. Players are also very eager to speak about these things and offer advice / compare notes. Nothing in this game is irreplaceable, so be lienent with yourself if you make a mistake, and keep selling everything you can find or make that may be useful to others. If you list useful things at your shop, you will make money easily.

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