Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

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Hrothgar Bloodaxe
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Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Hrothgar Bloodaxe » Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:20 pm

I think the current system of auctions for *shops* needs a bit of refinement.

TL;DR - the bidding system needs to be recalibrated for shops - the barrier to participation is too low (bids are too inexpensive), resulting in numerous shops that are poorly run by people that clearly don't have the ability/desire to properly operate a business. This penalizes merchants who take their "merchant RP" seriously and also negatively impacts the community as a whole by creating a weak marketplace/lack of item selection and reducing competition (thus increasing prices) amongst shops that actually create/sell usable items.

Specifically, I think that the cost of shops and/or the "bid" should be increased, in some cases substantially. Perhaps the "rent" for shops could also be increased as another way of solving the issues being raised.

As it currently stands, most shops will cost between 2-5k gp to bid on (and consequently, 20-50k to purchase).

What results from this is that it seems like a large number of people bid on a shop, because the barrier to entry is so low.

I've noticed that in many instances, the shops/merchants that end up winning have a very poor selection, even weeks afterward. I.e. very few items / items that aren't useful / wildly overpriced, etc. For reasons that are unclear to me, some settlements don't really seem to regulate this themselves. (And regardless, there are many shops outside of settlements that are "unregulated.")

While I understand the desire to ensure that a handful of wealthy people don't monopolize the shops, I think things have gone too far in the other direction.

Owning a shop should be taken seriously; but since the cost is so low, it's easy for people to place a bid / take a shop without having any intention of operating it properly. And unlike a "real" economy, it's impossible for a shop to go out of business if it's run poorly, because the rent is so low that it's functionally irrelevant...so these shops can persist for lengthy periods of time. In some instances, it just seems like people are using shops as additional storage, by keeping random rubbish in the shop with a price tag of 1 million gp per item.

I have no quantitative "proof" as to the true extent of this problem, but based on my anecdotal experience, and a number of other players I've spoken to, this does seem to be an issue with the existing mechanic that's affecting the community.

- Hrothgar
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Sandrow
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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Sandrow » Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:30 pm

Perhaps you don't know but, you must have enough golds in your bank account to win the bidding. If you don't have enough gold. You can't win at all.

Hrothgar Bloodaxe
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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Hrothgar Bloodaxe » Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:45 pm

Sandrow wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:30 pm
Perhaps you don't know but, you must have enough golds in your bank account to win the bidding. If you don't have enough gold. You can't win at all.
Yes, I am aware. I think the price of the shop would also need to be increased to a corresponding degree. Or perhaps, the non-refundable bid for the shop, is simply the actual price of the shop.

I think there's probably a number of different ways this could conceivably be addressed. I think the overarching issue is that shops are simply so inexpensive that people bid on them casually, with no plan or intention of putting any real effort into it.

Another possibility could be that, within an area, some shops are cheap, but others are more expensive. I know there is some "grading" of locations currently in a vague sense, in terms of shop cost...but perhaps this could be significantly enhanced, so that shops in prime locations require real investment, just as they would for prime locations IRL.

But ultimately, I don't want to get bogged down in one specific approach; more just to highlight the issue that there's too little at stake for people when it comes to purchasing shops, and that this detracts from the community as a whole.
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ElevenOne
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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by ElevenOne » Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:10 pm

Sandrow wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:30 pm
Perhaps you don't know but, you must have enough golds in your bank account to win the bidding. If you don't have enough gold. You can't win at all.
Yea, we need to have the gold in the bank, but 50k gold coins is almost nothing, this means, a player who does around 10~12 mid tier writs should have way more than enough to store in bank in case luck is on their side and wins the auction. And we even need to keep 50k in bank, even if we are bidding in 10, 20 or 100 shops.

As the initial payment is 2.5k to 5k is so little, everyone can just bid on every shop available without much challenge aside the minor cost.
If someone wants to bid on ten different shops at 5k is just 50k gold, meanwhile bidding at 50k, would be 500k.

Raising the price of the bid, at least, would make a player think twice before participating in a bid, much less likely to participate in everyone one available and consider if they have enough goods to sell to recover the payment.

------------------------------------------------------

For shops that are under a government, the process to recover a shop that is not taken care is slow, as there should be a period where the player has to put wares on sale, and let the shop sell something, and then the government has to determine if it is underperforming, then Role play with the player to discuss this, let them another period to improve and see sales.

--------------

An idea: allow players leave a complain on a shop, each complain takes x time from the activity period to refresh the shop, with a minimum time of y.

Sandrow
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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Sandrow » Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:31 pm

ElevenOne wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:10 pm
Sandrow wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:30 pm
Perhaps you don't know but, you must have enough golds in your bank account to win the bidding. If you don't have enough gold. You can't win at all.
Yea, we need to have the gold in the bank, but 50k gold coins is almost nothing, this means, a player who does around 10~12 mid tier writs should have way more than enough to store in bank in case luck is on their side and wins the auction. And we even need to keep 50k in bank, even if we are bidding in 10, 20 or 100 shops.

As the initial payment is 2.5k to 5k is so little, everyone can just bid on every shop available without much challenge aside the minor cost.
If someone wants to bid on ten different shops at 5k is just 50k gold, meanwhile bidding at 50k, would be 500k.

Raising the price of the bid, at least, would make a player think twice before participating in a bid, much less likely to participate in everyone one available and consider if they have enough goods to sell to recover the payment.

------------------------------------------------------

For shops that are under a government, the process to recover a shop that is not taken care is slow, as there should be a period where the player has to put wares on sale, and let the shop sell something, and then the government has to determine if it is underperforming, then Role play with the player to discuss this, let them another period to improve and see sales.

--------------

An idea: allow players leave a complain on a shop, each complain takes x time from the activity period to refresh the shop, with a minimum time of y.
You can complain on a shop. Just paste a paper on the shop. And it will goes to shop owner's inventory. I'm pretty sure the owner would get your complaints if you put 20 pieces of paper and occupy his inventory :evil:

Hrothgar Bloodaxe
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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Hrothgar Bloodaxe » Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:00 pm

Sandrow wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:31 pm
ElevenOne wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:10 pm
Sandrow wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:30 pm
Perhaps you don't know but, you must have enough golds in your bank account to win the bidding. If you don't have enough gold. You can't win at all.
Yea, we need to have the gold in the bank, but 50k gold coins is almost nothing, this means, a player who does around 10~12 mid tier writs should have way more than enough to store in bank in case luck is on their side and wins the auction. And we even need to keep 50k in bank, even if we are bidding in 10, 20 or 100 shops.

As the initial payment is 2.5k to 5k is so little, everyone can just bid on every shop available without much challenge aside the minor cost.
If someone wants to bid on ten different shops at 5k is just 50k gold, meanwhile bidding at 50k, would be 500k.

Raising the price of the bid, at least, would make a player think twice before participating in a bid, much less likely to participate in everyone one available and consider if they have enough goods to sell to recover the payment.

------------------------------------------------------

For shops that are under a government, the process to recover a shop that is not taken care is slow, as there should be a period where the player has to put wares on sale, and let the shop sell something, and then the government has to determine if it is underperforming, then Role play with the player to discuss this, let them another period to improve and see sales.

--------------

An idea: allow players leave a complain on a shop, each complain takes x time from the activity period to refresh the shop, with a minimum time of y.
You can complain on a shop. Just paste a paper on the shop. And it will goes to shop owner's inventory. I'm pretty sure the owner would get your complaints if you put 20 pieces of paper and occupy his inventory :evil:
I think what he was saying was that complaints would mechanically reduce the refresh time of the shop, not that he was simply trying to message the merchant.

Basically, he's suggesting there needs to be a better mechanism for holding under-performing shops accountable. To the extent that settlements do anything at all about this, it often takes months.

And there's also no accountability mechanism to speak of for shops in "unregulated" areas, which his suggestion would also address.

But again, I think ultimately, it's about making the commitment to owning a shop more significant. As it stands, it's clearly, demonstrably the case, that owning a shop is so cheap, easy, and risk-free, that people purchase them without any real effort to use them properly. Increasing the cost of the shop, the bid, the rent, or some other mechanic that helps remove bad shops, will make it so that the people who will most benefit the community will have a better shot at accessing them.
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Definately Not A Mimic
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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Definately Not A Mimic » Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:26 pm

I think increasing the rent of the shop would be good. Leave the bids and costs to buy alone (for the most part) as some people may be purchasing the shop with the intent of sharing it with a group. Doesn't matter if your lvl 7 faction member gets it, it increases the factions chances if 4 people all bid, you'll have others helping stock as well.
That said, if the rent is increased, the maintenance cost of owning, they will need to make some sort of profit and not have it sit there and sell maybe one item a RL week. Even then you'll still have those that grind gold in a dungeon easily that won't feel the tax coming out once a game month.
From my own perspective, I don't understand why those that don't sell things insist on keeping the shops anyway. What is the point?

Hrothgar Bloodaxe
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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Hrothgar Bloodaxe » Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:27 pm

Also, for what it's worth, it would seem that the people who are leading/administering settlements, feel powerless to police their own stores.

I had not read this prior to my feedback here, but I think this also adds to the perspective/conversation:
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=39250
Change to How Shops are Purchased
The hard and fast rule for property has always been to interact with the owner if you intend to evict/release their property. It was a good concept and helped generate some really solid roleplay. It still does, but now it feels like an OOC chore. However, the relatively new auctioning system has all but stripped settlement leaders of managing shops and their quality. Now that shops are auctioned on a lengthy timer settlement leaders are stuck with three options:
1. Permit shops with poor quality items that hardly sell,
2. Pray whoever owns the shop will put out quality items, or
3. Let shops sit in indefinite limbo while settlement leaders chase down the new shop owners to avoid rulebreaking, serve a notice of eviction, wait for the next auction to finish, and potentially repeat this process.

Shops are usually the majority of the settlement's income. Naturally, poor-selling shops are going to make that more difficult.
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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Mattamue » Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:39 pm

ElevenOne wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:10 pm
An idea: allow players leave a complain on a shop, each complain takes x time from the activity period to refresh the shop, with a minimum time of y.
You may have had good intentions suggesting this, but it will be OOCly weaponized immediately. Whatever you suggest as the new minimum will effectively become the new refresh rate for shop leases.

Who is the audience for this post?


AstralUniverse
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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by AstralUniverse » Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:55 pm

I really cant think of a better system that doesnt bring back the entrench. I agree that there might be a better system in theory that allows more interactive RP around shops, but I'm also fine with the current system.
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Hrothgar Bloodaxe
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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Hrothgar Bloodaxe » Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:02 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:55 pm
I really cant think of a better system that doesnt bring back the entrench. I agree that there might be a better system in theory that allows more interactive RP around shops, but I'm also fine with the current system.
I wouldn't necessarily say we need a different system - I think we simply need to adjust the prices within the current system. I don't foresee a radical change being necessary; just increase the cost of a bid so that its costly enough that only people who are serious about running the shop are likely to bid.

Even then, you'll never completely solve the issue, I acknowledge that. But I think it's a matter of degree. If, for instance, instead of having a 10% bid relative to the price of the shop, the bid was simply the full price (20-50k, on average), I think this would go a long way towards improving the quality of the shops.
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AstralUniverse
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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by AstralUniverse » Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:21 pm

Hrothgar Bloodaxe wrote:
Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:02 pm
I wouldn't necessarily say we need a different system - I think we simply need to adjust the prices within the current system. I don't foresee a radical change being necessary; just increase the cost of a bid so that its costly enough that only people who are serious about running the shop are likely to bid.
That's a bad move.

The idea behind the low costs is to make it accessible to new characters at low level and to give them as much equal opportunity to play a perm-shop keeper as someone who took the time to get some levels and funds. That's what at least I vaguely recall irongron saying few times here and there regarding shops even in the previous systems.

Now, for a low level character the different between 2k and 20k bid is HUGE but for a level 30 character it doesnt matter all that much, they can still bid with the same level of 'seriousness about the shop' as before.
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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Spriggan Bride » Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:48 pm

My biggest problem with the current system is you need to make a bunch of bids all over the island and it's very easy to forget where or to keep checking on them. I imagine a lot of shops sit vacant for a week after the winner never comes to collect then they go up for bid again for even more days out of circulation.

I think being a citizen should give you more chance to win in your own settlement too.

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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:01 am

I'd like it if people were unable to bid if they already own a shop. That would be a step in the right direction. Also some kind of notification when someone wins a bid and gets the shop would be welcome. The game is smart enough to give me a heads up every time I log in when I have an assassin contract on me so why not also give some good news sometimes...
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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Dreams » Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:34 am

I think permanent shop locations should be very expensive to initially buy (100,000+), and then be taxed aggressively on the basis of NOT selling goods. It will encourage people who actually have something useful, and provides something to discourage people overpricing or using their shop as storage (which is happening to large degrees with overpriced high-weight stacks all across Arelith right now).

e.g. For some reason you put Mithril Dust in your shop at 300,000 gold and it sits there for RL years. Every 3 IG months (1 RL month) you get taxed 1% of it's value because it didn't sell. In this example that amount would be 3,000 gold. This person is being taxed because what they are selling is not actually selling, they're taking up space with an object that may never sell. They might now realise that they need to lower their pricing.

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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:44 am

Making shops that expensive to start with will have the opposite effect you're looking for if you want cheap goods.

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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Aradin » Tue Sep 20, 2022 4:15 am

Before the lottery system, you had in a broad sense better-kept shops across the board, but it could be exceedingly difficult for new and casual players to have the chance to own a shop. If you give players 100% of the power to determine who gets a shop, you'll have a more robust economy but it'll be more gatekeepey.

After the lottery system, there have been upticks in vacant shops and shops that are more poorly kept, but lots of different people are finally getting the chance to try owning a shop, and obtaining a shop is easier than it's ever been. It's come at the price of the overall quality of shops across the server.

I don't know if there's an answer to have it both ways; to have overall shop quality high while simultaneously allowing new and casual players to be owning shops, because being a new or casual player is a direct corrolation to how well someone can maintain a shop. A good shop takes effort, time, and material resources. These are things that new and casual players have less of.

I think at some point you just have to make a value judgment about how inclusive you want the shop system to be, and how much shop quality you're willing to sacrifice in the world to ensure that level of inclusivity. The devs made their choice when they instituted the lottery system and I honestly haven't minded it too much myself even if it is imperfect.

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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Felmilk » Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:01 am

Aradin wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 4:15 am
Before the lottery system, you had in a broad sense better-kept shops across the board, but it could be exceedingly difficult for new and casual players to have the chance to own a shop. If you give players 100% of the power to determine who gets a shop, you'll have a more robust economy but it'll be more gatekeepey.

After the lottery system, there have been upticks in vacant shops and shops that are more poorly kept, but lots of different people are finally getting the chance to try owning a shop, and obtaining a shop is easier than it's ever been. It's come at the price of the overall quality of shops across the server.

I don't know if there's an answer to have it both ways; to have overall shop quality high while simultaneously allowing new and casual players to be owning shops, because being a new or casual player is a direct corrolation to how well someone can maintain a shop. A good shop takes effort, time, and material resources. These are things that new and casual players have less of.

I think at some point you just have to make a value judgment about how inclusive you want the shop system to be, and how much shop quality you're willing to sacrifice in the world to ensure that level of inclusivity. The devs made their choice when they instituted the lottery system and I honestly haven't minded it too much myself even if it is imperfect.
Good post, but I think the obvious answer to 'How to have it both ways' is quite literally to just have it both ways. Some shops on bid system and some not.

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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Nurel » Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:14 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:01 am
I'd like it if people were unable to bid if they already own a shop. That would be a step in the right direction. Also some kind of notification when someone wins a bid and gets the shop would be welcome. The game is smart enough to give me a heads up every time I log in when I have an assassin contract on me so why not also give some good news sometimes...
I do agree with Hrothgar's notion that bidding on a shop presents 0 challenge and hence you get too many people bidding on vacant shops. Bidding on shops has become almost a mindless activity for most players just looking to "upgrade" to a better location.

IC consequence:
Once a player acquires a shop, they should be willing to work said shop and see it prosper, along with the settlement or guildhouse where it is bound. Owning a shop should also be a perfect incentive to make friends with the neighbors, and to learn to adhere to the laws of the land and its practices. The shop owner should try to make "their" spot of the map a regularly visited site and a good addition to every shopper's shopping route. People do not do that anymore.

OOC consequence:
As remote trade hubs are now largely underperforming (Westcliff, Grotto, Guildhouse hubs just to name a few), they have become deserted. People seldom include them in their shopping routes, so even obscenely lowered prices are not enough to bring even a hint of good business to those who dare try. I know because I tried on my new toon. I got myself a remote shop and sold common but useful goods at a fraction of their market price, to make pocket change for my character. I made almost 0 sales in at least 2 IRL months. It did not work for me, it will not work for others either, especially new players with limited market knowledge.

Getting a shop with 0 RP impact just so you can list your stuff until you can land a better shop is just not doing the server any good both in the IC or the OOC. So as suggested in the quote, I also suggest we make it so that shop owners will not be able to bid on another location unless they relinquish/sell their current stall. Its a perfect fix. This will get players to invest thought and effort in their property, and not instantly look to replace it with a better one.

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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Slapstick » Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:42 am

Nurel wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:14 am
I do agree with Hrothgar's notion that bidding on a shop presents 0 challenge and hence you get too many people bidding on vacant shops. Bidding on shops has become almost a mindless activity for most players just looking to "upgrade" to a better location.
This isn't a problem. Low barrier of entry means more people will have the chance to enjoy a somewhat significant RP/gamplay opportunity the server provides. This is a good thing. The problem is that there is 0 challenge/cost in HAVING a shop. If the rental price was increased tenfold, then you'd have a lot more incentive to keep a good and large stock of goods that moves frequently, and for the same reason we would likely also have more price competition.
Nurel wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:14 am
IC consequence:
Once a player acquires a shop, they should be willing to work said shop and see it prosper, along with the settlement or guildhouse where it is bound. Owning a shop should also be a perfect incentive to make friends with the neighbors, and to learn to adhere to the laws of the land and its practices. The shop owner should try to make "their" spot of the map a regularly visited site and a good addition to every shopper's shopping route. People do not do that anymore.

OOC consequence:
As remote trade hubs are now largely underperforming (Westcliff, Grotto, Guildhouse hubs just to name a few), they have become deserted. People seldom include them in their shopping routes, so even obscenely lowered prices are not enough to bring even a hint of good business to those who dare try. I know because I tried on my new toon. I got myself a remote shop and sold common but useful goods at a fraction of their market price, to make pocket change for my character. I made almost 0 sales in at least 2 IRL months. It did not work for me, it will not work for others either, especially new players with limited market knowledge.
I feel like you contradict yourself a little bit here. The first point is that remote shops are never visited, and you seem to be saying this is the fault of the shop owners. I hardly think that's true. There's only so many shops I need to go through before I find what I need, and only so much time I'm willing to devote to shopping around. After going through cordor, brog, sinbayad, crow's nest and guldorand - if I haven't found what I'm looking for at a reasonable price (which is unlikely), I'm not going to spend even more time.
Nurel wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:14 am
Getting a shop with 0 RP impact just so you can list your stuff until you can land a better shop is just not doing the server any good both in the IC or the OOC. So as suggested in the quote, I also suggest we make it so that shop owners will not be able to bid on another location unless they relinquish/sell their current stall. Its a perfect fix. This will get players to invest thought and effort in their property, and not instantly look to replace it with a better one.
I think it's a horrible fix for the exact reasons you listed in the previous two paragraphs. Right now we have turnover on shops and locations because people want to move shop to better performing areas. This causes further opportunities for others to get in somewhere along this chain of events. Having to abandon your shop to bid on another one will increase stagnation and do nothing for the shop quality.

If the recurring rent cost for shops was increased by a significant degree, we can keep a) low barrier of entry, b) frequent opportunity of entry c) much higher incentives for good quality shops and d) much higher incentive for making partners to keep the shop stocked. That's really all that's needed in my estimation.

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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Nurel » Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:20 am

Slapstick wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:42 am
This isn't a problem. Low barrier of entry means more people will have the chance to enjoy a somewhat significant RP/gamplay opportunity the server provides. This is a good thing. The problem is that there is 0 challenge/cost in HAVING a shop. If the rental price was increased tenfold, then you'd have a lot more incentive to keep a good and large stock of goods that moves frequently, and for the same reason we would likely also have more price competition.
Increased shop maintenance is a solution indeed. What I was arguing against is the reckless bidding of everyone everywhere with 0 thought process behind it. I think it should be addressed somehow either directly (up the bidding cost, bad for lowbie PCs), or indirectly (stop allowing bids for people who already own shops)
Slapstick wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:42 am
I feel like you contradict yourself a little bit here. The first point is that remote shops are never visited, and you seem to be saying this is the fault of the shop owners. I hardly think that's true. There's only so many shops I need to go through before I find what I need, and only so much time I'm willing to devote to shopping around. After going through cordor, brog, sinbayad, crow's nest and guldorand - if I haven't found what I'm looking for at a reasonable price (which is unlikely), I'm not going to spend even more time.
That is the main problem here, in my opinion. Property and real estate scarcity was a thing, and always will be a thing for players to work around. But let us not forget that somewhere around the release of Guld City, multitudes of new shops were introduced throughout the module almost overnight. Then the bid system was changed, also overnight. After allowing for a few month's time for the dust to settle, we are now in a position to properly evaluate the new system also in relation to the sudden huge increase in player shop supply.

I can recall, prior to the introduction of the new shops and system people DID go the extra mile to find a good bargain. Shoppers literally scoured the map to get good deals on items they needed, and high tier wares could be found anywhere on Arelith, not just in main hubs. Somewhere somehow this was lost completely.

I do not blame the players for not making things work. But I recognize the new system may have removed a seller's incentive to maintain and operate a faraway stall, as well as a buyer's willingness to spend extra time walking places looking for things they need. I simply think there are now too many shops, while the dedicated trader players/PCs are just a handful. Not complaining though, more property for people to enjoy can only be good. But it can lose its value if not supported well with systems aimed to maintain its relevance and value IC but also OOC.
Slapstick wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:42 am
I think it's a horrible fix for the exact reasons you listed in the previous two paragraphs. Right now we have turnover on shops and locations because people want to move shop to better performing areas. This causes further opportunities for others to get in somewhere along this chain of events. Having to abandon your shop to bid on another one will increase stagnation and do nothing for the shop quality.
Shop quality was far better when people were eager to keep the stalls they won or were entrusted with. All these months following the introduction of Many New Shops, the supply of vacant shops has still not been met by player's demand. I find vacant shops in Cordor Bank? Cordor festhall? These were always prime locations, now shifting hands on a weekly basis. You could argue this is good, as players get a better chance to own prime location property, but is it actually good for the economy, or for player interaction? If Cordor Bank shops shift owners every week, then what about the remote areas? They are dead.

The system of bidding should encourage a thought process instead of just being 0 stakes lottery. "Do I want to win this?", "if I win, what will I sell?". "What do the other shops sell near here?".
Last edited by Nurel on Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

Slapstick
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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Slapstick » Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:41 am

Nurel wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:20 am
Shop quality was far better when people were eager to keep the stalls they won or were entrusted with. All these months following the introduction of Many New Shops, the supply of vacant shops has still not been met by player's demand. I find vacant shops in Cordor Bank? Cordor festhall? These were always prime locations, now shifting hands on a weekly basis. You could argue this is good, as players get a better chance to own prime location property, but is it actually good for the economy, or for player interaction? If Cordor Bank shops shift owners every week, then what about the remote areas? They are dead.

The system of bidding should encourage a thought process instead of just being 0 stakes lottery. "Do I want to win this?", "if I win, what will I sell?". "What do the other shops sell near here?".
I agree completely. I think high rent will accomplish this, and also push people to release shops they're not managing well. I think a gradual approach should work fine - the situation is not dire. Higher buy-in costs might put a dent in the amount of players that just want to get to 1 million gold though. If it costs 250.000 gold to buy a shop it would be a full quarter of the 1 million gold price of a character roll, and only those that intend to stick around is going to fork that over. I just don't believe that it's necessary or fun. Owning a shop, even if you roll in 2-3 months is fun, but there should be incentives to make the most of it. Higher rent will likely do that on it's own.

Arienette
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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Arienette » Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:05 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:01 am
I'd like it if people were unable to bid if they already own a shop. That would be a step in the right direction. Also some kind of notification when someone wins a bid and gets the shop would be welcome. The game is smart enough to give me a heads up every time I log in when I have an assassin contract on me so why not also give some good news sometimes...
I am very much torn on this. On one hand, it would be a good thing to have less of the cycle going on where people bid, win, never check in, it goes up for bid again.

On the other hand, if your character cannot even be bothered to visit that location at least once in a 7-day period, why on earth are you bidding on that shop in the first place?

I agree with some of the other commenters that making things more expensive would be a good thing. I lean more towards making it more expensive to bid, in some way. Right now, theres basically no reason for people not to bid on basically every open shop they come across, regardless of wether or not:

1. The shop is in a place it would make sense for them to own
2. They have any actual interest in running a shop
3. They play the game frequently enough to run a shop

You can make a bid with pocket change, you dont even need to make an effort to run to a bank and back. Its like throwing a penny into a wishing well.

My very favorite idea, however, is the one that has come up in this and the other active Settlement thread. Take a core of shops in every settlement OFF of the bid system. Cordor Mercantile Building, Guldorand Mercantile, Brog main halls, Bendir tavern, High Elven Hall, Greyport Port Authority, etc. This way settlements can better police at least some of the shops for quality, and people can use the shops on the outskirts and in "wilderness" areas to sell +1 loot items for 7k gold or whatever.

AstralUniverse
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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:33 am

Arienette wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:05 am
I am very much torn on this. On one hand, it would be a good thing to have less of the cycle going on where people bid, win, never check in, it goes up for bid again.

On the other hand, if your character cannot even be bothered to visit that location at least once in a 7-day period, why on earth are you bidding on that shop in the first place?
There was a complaint that people bid on a lot of shops that they couldnt keep track of it anymore and some shops were empty a month on a row somehow by the winds of fate. I agree with you that people should remember to check their bids, and that it's on them, but a notification would be nice and welcome here none the less. I also think that if people who already own a shop cant bid on other shops, it will make them think twice before they bid on a lame off-traffic shop they would want to replace later for a better location. This way some people will just sit and wait for high tier locations and other people will just go for the easier-to-get shops off-traffic. Like.. if a shop in Cordor's merchantile goes up for sale, you can be sure there are like 100 people bidding with you or something like that, because why not upgrade to the best location... If people need to sit shop-less while they wait for these high tier locations it makes the game way more dynamic.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by With Darkness and Silence » Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:37 pm

The absolute only time I've been able to get a shop in this new system is when a shop that literally didn't have a bidding period went up and I just kind of bought it.

After bidding well over two dozen times and never winning a shop, I'm done trying. It's not worth my time and effort. Shops are for fun. Crafting isn't the only source of income. It's my freaking choice to commit myself to logging on constantly to stock a shop.

The new system has merely seen the community lose good shopkeeps.

Also, there's no being torn on this.

You don't get to demand/expect people relive disappointment endlessly.

Changing the low buy-in to make a more limited competition market might do something? But I have 70k on most characters by level 10.

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