Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

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Nurel
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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Nurel » Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:49 pm

With Darkness and Silence wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:37 pm
The absolute only time I've been able to get a shop in this new system is when a shop that literally didn't have a bidding period went up and I just kind of bought it.

After bidding well over two dozen times and never winning a shop, I'm done trying. It's not worth my time and effort. Shops are for fun. Crafting isn't the only source of income. It's my freaking choice to commit myself to logging on constantly to stock a shop.

The new system has merely seen the community lose good shopkeeps.

Also, there's no being torn on this.

You don't get to demand/expect people relive disappointment endlessly.
A very valid take on things. It is a shame having all this wealth of property available, and yet be unable to distribute it properly among us somehow. Two dozen times is a lot of times, I sure hope you will get a nice shop soon, but you gotta keep trying at it!

Allowing settlements to appoint their key shop locations to people is one solution, but it only solves a fraction of the problem.

Another solution would be: Making the bidding system into an "actual" bidding system, where people can spar over property with their fat bank accounts and whoever offers the most money, wins.

Of course, then inclusiveness goes out the window, the new PCs who have few friends and few coins do not get to buy prime property, and the rich PCs get to dictate who gets what, always. Clearly this is not a viable solution for the long run.
Arienette wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:05 am
My very favorite idea, however, is the one that has come up in this and the other active Settlement thread. Take a core of shops in every settlement OFF of the bid system.
A lot of people seem to think this will be a very good update to the current system. I also agree, doing this will only help reinvigorate the Arelith real estate market for shops, as well as the economy in general.

Cagus
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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Cagus » Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:10 pm

I am just wondering WHAT would you expect, that new low level character without connections, capital, manufacture or treasure-hunting potential will be putting his newly gained cheap shop with 20 slots.

Imo the only thing that will improve of quality of sold items is if you tax the items, not the shop.
1% of the requested price summa every 1/2/3/n day(s) from a bank account.
you are putting high price there and not selling? you pay for it.
even with 1 day setting, in one month you lose 30% of the value of the things you want to sell
in 3 day setting, it is 10% for one month.
Make 3 categories of shops
1day - city centers (mercantile, hub)
2day - periphery shops (guldo-houses, monastery, devil's)
3-n day - unreachable (middle of the desert shops)
Play with the setting until satisfied.

This will make people think twice of what they try to sell, and if you want to keep that +1 trident for 10k in your shop and pay 100gp for every day it is sitting there, why not. You want to use the shop as storage, so you put the 1000000 price tag on your 1000-valued thing? Well, that storing will cost you 10k per day. Good riddance.

Slapstick
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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Slapstick » Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:20 pm

Cagus wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:10 pm
I am just wondering WHAT would you expect, that new low level character without connections, capital, manufacture or treasure-hunting potential will be putting his newly gained cheap shop with 20 slots.

Imo the only thing that will improve of quality of sold items is if you tax the items, not the shop.
1% of the requested price summa every 1/2/3/n day(s) from a bank account.
you are putting high price there and not selling? you pay for it.
even with 1 day setting, in one month you lose 30% of the value of the things you want to sell
in 3 day setting, it is 10% for one month.
Make 3 categories of shops
1day - city centers (mercantile, hub)
2day - periphery shops (guldo-houses, monastery, devil's)
3-n day - unreachable (middle of the desert shops)
Play with the setting until satisfied.

This will make people think twice of what they try to sell, and if you want to keep that +1 trident for 10k in your shop and pay 100gp for every day it is sitting there, why not. You want to use the shop as storage, so you put the 1000000 price tag on your 1000-valued thing? Well, that storing will cost you 10k per day. Good riddance.
I dont like this suggestion. There are many items that are rarely needed but worth a lot to the right buyer and not being able to have it in the shop until the right buyer comes along because it costs too much sucks for both the owner and the prospective buyer. I remember seeing a rare dropped dire mace in a shop that was keened and dweomered and essenced etc. It was priced at 1.3 million gold I think. Perfectly reasonable price, it's just going to take a while before the right build/character for it comes along.

Higher rent is a good idea but it shouldn't be based on pricing in the shop, or selling rarely needed but valuable items is going to suffer way too much.

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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Hrothgar Bloodaxe » Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:51 pm

I see a lot of great comments here, thank you everyone!

Here are my thoughts/responses to much of what has been said:

1. This is perhaps the most important thing to keep in mind (and informs the comments below): there is not an issue with the number of available shops, overall. There are plenty of open shops. But they are in such remote/low-traffic areas, that they are not really commercially viable. A number of the people on this thread have affirmed this, and I agree as well.

As I see it, the real issue is that the current mechanics make it so that the best shop locations are often populated by terrible shops/absentee owners, with no consideration with how this affects settlements or the broader community.


2. I *don't* think it's a good idea to restrict shop bidding, if you already own one. The reason being, for most people, the only real option to own a shop, is to own one in a distant/bad location (see point #1 above). The number of bids on shops in good/high-traffic areas is so high, that you're unlikely to actually win one. I am currently in this situation myself - I RP a merchant, but my shop is not in a good spot. I have bid on at least 20 other (better) locations, and still have not won one.

So, if it was the case that I could not bid while owning a shop, you essentially put people in a situation of never being able to own a shop in order to participate in a lottery that they have a 5% or less chance of winning, which just seems like a terrible idea. Me holding a shop in a bad location, is not preventing others from owning shops....the shop across from me is constantly vacant/being sold/changing hands....people just don't want it / abandon it the first chance they get to "upgrade."

In other words, it's not an issue of "total number of shops available issue," which is what the restriction on bidding while owning is trying to address...basically that's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.


3. I think the suggestion of having really high rent is potentially problematic although I think that this really depends on the details (i.e. rent rates for specific shops). Specifically, if your shop is in a "bad area," having a high rent is just punitive. Even if you have a good shop, with good items, and fair prices....you simply won't have customers, and a player can't really do much about this. I can say this as someone who has a shop, advertises inventory/prices on signs in the nearby high-traffic area, sells sought-after items at market / below market price (i.e. popular arcane scrolls, LMB, True Sight, etc., Rings of Hiding with +1 CON, for 70k), and makes very little money.

That being said, if rent is well calibrated to a specific location, I could see this working....I'm just concerned that it will be almost impossible to balance this properly, especially given that some stores sell really cool stuff, that's not necessarily hugely profitable for the owner.


4. To all the responses of "Increasing prices will push away low-level players." I don't think that's necessarily the case.

A) You can have different prices, for shops. You can still keep some cheap shops open. And obviously in places like Skal, you can leave things as they are. And, per point #3, there will still be plenty of "starter shops" in remote areas, that will likely be available.

B) I would argue that not all shops should necessarily be open to all players starting out. Not everything needs to be open to everyone. There are tons of estates, guildhalls, and other properties that are not affordable to low level players, nor, quite frankly, should they be. I think there's something to be said for having shops/properties that are targeted towards new/low-level players, but also having shops/quarters that are targeted for more established/high-level players. Making things accessible to new/low-lever players is important, I agree. But so is providing for the more established/long-term characters, who are usually the most active in their RP and contributions to the community. It's a balance, and it doesn't need to be one or the other - both can happen simultaneously; that's what's great about pricing; it can be adjusted from location to location.

C) [Allowing a new/inexperienced player to purchase a prime location they're not able/prepared to adequately manage, isn't giving them some sort of meaningful opportunity. I.e., allowing an inexperienced/low-level player, to own a shop in the middle of Cordor, isn't actually helping that player. They won't be able to stock it with items people want to purchase, so it won't get business, and it will likely either fold, or simply remain in limbo without generating any revenue for that person, or the settlement. This is currently what's taking place (either that, or high-level players who are just negligent). And while exceptions to this are certainly possible, I think basing rules on exceptional cases is generally not a great idea.


5. I think the "settlement control over core shops" is a great idea. I think this could feed into politics well, in the same way that estates/landed gentry could. I would even suggest perhaps exploring a similar mechanic, of like "Captain of Industry" or something, that connects prominent shops with political implications. This wouldn't be for all shops, but for a select few. This would help ensure that settlements have control over their own commerce, while also promoting RP and community engagement.


6. However, point #5 doesn't address the significant number of "non-settlement" shops. This is where again, I think having higher bids comes in. Having high rents, doesn't make sense in areas that will never see much traffic. What you want to cut down on, is the number of people bidding casually / without really intending to get a specific location.


As I see it, the core problem is that there's a distribution issue - shops in prime locations are not accessible to the players best able to make use of them, which negatively impacts the community overall. I don't think there's necessarily one perfect solution; I imagine a number of the ideas mentioned could be used in conjunction to improve things overall.

I think whatever "egalitarian benefit" is gained by allowing a handful of inexperienced/absentee shop owners in these places, is vastly outweighed by the far greater number of players in the community who are no longer able to find what they need at reasonable prices, or settlements that can't even manage their own commerce effectively.

Allowing bad shops to become so prevalent as they have currently doesn't help anyone - it doesn't help new players / inexperienced shop owners, it doesn't help settlements, and it doesn't help the vast majority of players who *don't* own shops, and simply wish to have access to a properly functioning marketplace.
Of course, optional horse death RP is a possibility.

Cagus
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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Cagus » Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:10 pm

Slapstick wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:20 pm
Cagus wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:10 pm
I am just wondering WHAT would you expect, that new low level character without connections, capital, manufacture or treasure-hunting potential will be putting his newly gained cheap shop with 20 slots.

Imo the only thing that will improve of quality of sold items is if you tax the items, not the shop.
1% of the requested price summa every 1/2/3/n day(s) from a bank account.
you are putting high price there and not selling? you pay for it.
even with 1 day setting, in one month you lose 30% of the value of the things you want to sell
in 3 day setting, it is 10% for one month.
Make 3 categories of shops
1day - city centers (mercantile, hub)
2day - periphery shops (guldo-houses, monastery, devil's)
3-n day - unreachable (middle of the desert shops)
Play with the setting until satisfied.

This will make people think twice of what they try to sell, and if you want to keep that +1 trident for 10k in your shop and pay 100gp for every day it is sitting there, why not. You want to use the shop as storage, so you put the 1000000 price tag on your 1000-valued thing? Well, that storing will cost you 10k per day. Good riddance.
I dont like this suggestion. There are many items that are rarely needed but worth a lot to the right buyer and not being able to have it in the shop until the right buyer comes along because it costs too much sucks for both the owner and the prospective buyer. I remember seeing a rare dropped dire mace in a shop that was keened and dweomered and essenced etc. It was priced at 1.3 million gold I think. Perfectly reasonable price, it's just going to take a while before the right build/character for it comes along.

Higher rent is a good idea but it shouldn't be based on pricing in the shop, or selling rarely needed but valuable items is going to suffer way too much.
Solvable
You ignore 1/2/3 most expensive items from the shop when calculating the sum.

TooManyPotatoes
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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by TooManyPotatoes » Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:29 pm

Cagus wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:10 pm
Imo the only thing that will improve of quality of sold items is if you tax the items, not the shop.
1% of the requested price summa every 1/2/3/n day(s) from a bank account.
you are putting high price there and not selling? you pay for it.
This will lead to the death of many shops including my own which brings in anywhere from 600k to 1.5 million an ingame month gross. It is frequently in the top 3 shops in the settlement. The shop operates on selling big-ticket items, primarily armours. Frankly, the margins arent very big when I make a sale. But by all accounts this is a successful and appreciated shop, maybe the only one on the isle that sells certain armours.

Example: Adamantine full plate. If I sell it for 200k, currently 8% of that goes to taxes leaving me with 184k from the sale. Anyone who is watching the adamantine market knows that each ingot can sell in shops for 55k atm, and while that is a little inflated, even if we assume 40k an ingot, that is costing me over 160k in raw materials. 24k profit assuming best case scenario and if you dont count the cost of coal or my time/skill points.
These armours do not sell quickly at all, and are frankly more of a passion project than anything. Meanwhile it sells better than a lot of other armours i sell as those are for specific classes and are more expensive due to the raw materials involved (which I have to source btw).
Your proposal would lead to me losing 2k a day on that armour alone. Imagine I have it stocked with 30 armours. I am losing 60k a day. Probably more. That is 1.8million i am losing every month. (and if we go with your 3% number its 5.4 million). See my earlier numbers. I can't account for that loss through profit. Not even close.

Otherwise, chipping in with others in support of every settlement having at least one area in their settlement where the shops are outside the bidding system. I see nothing wrong with the two systems coexisting in this way and consider it best of both worlds.

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Mattamue
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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Mattamue » Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:46 pm

We should just have a wow style action house where anyone can put X number of items, accessable and linked to settlements.

Who is the audience for this post?


TooManyPotatoes
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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by TooManyPotatoes » Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:48 pm

I also just thought of a new griefing mechanic. If you ask someone to grant you access to their shop so you can add things, what is stopping someone from pricing a bunch of items for 9999999 and watching as the owner loses all their money from a round of daily taxes?

In fact, as proposed this will discourage cooperative merchanting as why would you risk someone joining your shop and bankrupting you, even if unintentionally through bad pricing?

Cagus
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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Cagus » Tue Sep 20, 2022 5:10 pm

TooManyPotatoes wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:48 pm
I also just thought of a new griefing mechanic. If you ask someone to grant you access to their shop so you can add things, what is stopping someone from pricing a bunch of items for 9999999 and watching as the owner loses all their money from a round of daily taxes?

In fact, as proposed this will discourage cooperative merchanting as why would you risk someone joining your shop and bankrupting you, even if unintentionally through bad pricing?
Items can hold information about last owner, it doesn't have to be subtracted from shop owner's account.
TooManyPotatoes wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:29 pm
Your proposal would lead to me losing 2k a day on that armour alone. Imagine I have it stocked with 30 armours. I am losing 60k a day. Probably more. That is 1.8million i am losing every month. (and if we go with your 3% number its 5.4 million). See my earlier numbers. I can't account for that loss through profit. Not even close.
Cagus wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:10 pm
1% of the requested price summa every 1/2/3/n day(s) from a bank account.
...
3-n day - unreachable (middle of the desert shops)
Play with the setting until satisfied.
Well...
1. You are thinking about this in the wrong way. When you have something, that doesn't sell much, there is no reason you should occupy the best shop in the middle of the square. You should leave it to someone who sells quicker. So you would probably seeking one of those less reachable shops (and if someone goes to buy 200k armour, they don'T care to make a trip to well established armour shop), which cost much less to maintain (which leads us to point 2).
2. You misunderstood, it is not 3% per day, it is 1% per 3-n days. It could be n=5 or even higher. Then you go from 2k to 400.
3. Also I said you can play with the setting until satisfied. It can be 0,5%. It can be something else.
4. Probably more? How. If you have example with 30 2k armours, summa is calculated exactly 60k. Not less, not more.

If fact, I have no illusion that system, how I described it would be ever implemented. Point of this example was to declare, that it is not the shop, but its content, that needs to be fined, so the behaviour of players is to be changed.

ElvenEdibles
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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by ElvenEdibles » Tue Sep 20, 2022 5:55 pm

With Darkness and Silence wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:37 pm
After bidding well over two dozen times and never winning a shop,
Depending on where you're bidding your odds could be worse than getting a major award

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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Griefmaker » Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:13 pm

Are the Trade Minsters/leaders of settlements still able to boot people who have bad shops (assuming of course, plenty of attempts at contact and improvement, but if the shop owner does not respond or ignores it, they are booted. Perhaps that leads to them not being able to bid on other shops for an IG year or something)?

There is an IG mechanic unless it has changed for settlements to get rid of bad shop owners.

As an aside, I agree 100% about the quality of shops going down significantly. Then again, the nepotism issue which was indeed prevalent was addressed, which was a good thing. This bidding system has definitely been a double edged sword but that is how things go!

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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Hrothgar Bloodaxe » Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:28 pm

ElvenEdibles wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 5:55 pm
With Darkness and Silence wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:37 pm
After bidding well over two dozen times and never winning a shop,
Depending on where you're bidding your odds could be worse than getting a major award
Yup, absolutely can become considerably worse. It's a real problem.!
Griefmaker wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:13 pm
Are the Trade Minsters/leaders of settlements still able to boot people who have bad shops (assuming of course, plenty of attempts at contact and improvement, but if the shop owner does not respond or ignores it, they are booted. Perhaps that leads to them not being able to bid on other shops for an IG year or something)?

There is an IG mechanic unless it has changed for settlements to get rid of bad shop owners.

As an aside, I agree 100% about the quality of shops going down significantly. Then again, the nepotism issue which was indeed prevalent was addressed, which was a good thing. This bidding system has definitely been a double edged sword but that is how things go!
So, yes, there is, but - the amount of time / effort / timezone coordination to make this happen, is significant to the point that it deters people from actually doing this. Furthermore, there's no guarantee that if they evict someone, that a better shop will take it's place - it just goes back up for auction...it's often the case it's just an endless cycle of bad shops / evictions / auctions (rinse and repeat).

As well, this doesn't apply to the many shops outside of settlements (Dis, Shadovar, and Sibyad, just to name a handful).

So unfortunately, while good as a concept, the settlement eviction power is functionally not helpful in many cases.
Of course, optional horse death RP is a possibility.

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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Arienette » Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:03 pm

Cagus wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 5:10 pm

1. You are thinking about this in the wrong way. When you have something, that doesn't sell much, there is no reason you should occupy the best shop in the middle of the square. You should leave it to someone who sells quicker. So you would probably seeking one of those less reachable shops (and if someone goes to buy 200k armor, they don'T care to make a trip to well established armour shop), which cost much less to maintain (which leads us to point 2).
This is a very strange take IMO. A shop full of top tier armors that generates ~1 million in revenue per ingame month for a settlement is exactly the type of shop that a settlement wants! The speed at which the things sell is immaterial.

Say you have:

1. Shop A, selling 1 million per ingame month, moving 4-5 items per month
2. Shop B, selling 1 million per ingame month, moving 40-50 items per month

If I was running a settlement, I would not have any particular preference for A or B. They are both selling goods that are apparently useful to other PCs and generating a similar tax revenue for the settlement.

Shops slowly selling high-ticket goods are not a problem for settlements. The shops that are a problem for settlements are the ones that consistently stock 10 junk loot items for more than they are worth.

Its not uncommon to see these shops selling a +2 skil +1 stat ring for MORE than the cost to enchant it in the basin. These are the types of shops that harm settlements in terms of tax revenue, and provide no useful service to the community at large.

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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Spriggan Bride » Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:18 pm

End of the day people will often shop where it's convenient over where it's a bargain because it's play money. You can overprice things in The Hub and Cordor and it'll still sell well because running all over the island checking every shop for a better price can be maddening and they'd rather be out an extra 50 or 100,000 gp than spend multiple hours seeing if they can do better (which is also a big IF)

To me it's really not worth pricing things so they move faster than you can replenish them, like if a top end armor piece that takes days and a lot of rare material to craft is gone in a day and you won't be able to replace it in your shop for a week or more you probably ought to have priced it higher even if that will get people saying it's a ripoff. That's something that always makes me eyeroll, people saying I'm selling too high when it's something I can't keep regularly stocked and I know will sell eventually.

With Darkness and Silence
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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by With Darkness and Silence » Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:21 am

ElvenEdibles wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 5:55 pm
With Darkness and Silence wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:37 pm
After bidding well over two dozen times and never winning a shop,
Depending on where you're bidding your odds could be worse than getting a major award
I won't say how many characters I've rolled.

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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Rei_Jin » Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:38 am

Fun potential solution for at least *part* of the shop problem.

All settlements have stores, and those stores are in various locations which may be either good or bad.

I would love to see a decent number of (not all, mind you) the stores in a settlement put into a system which gives them a ranking based on a formula that looks at (a) number of items sold, (b) value of items sold, and (c) number of crafted items sold.

Every 10 RL days, the system would then adjust the store location based on where they were for ranking in that period, with the first "check" being ignored by the system for a store, giving the store owner time to stock up and ensure that they're competing on an even playing field

Example 1: I am fortunate enough to win a store in Cordor outside the coliseum. I work hard, advertise my store, stock it with highly sought after items. On the third RL day of me having the store the first "check" is done for me, which ignores my store, as it has new ownership. On the 13th day of me having the store the second "check" is done, and it sees that I've actually gotten some decent sales, and so it moves me from the number 15 store (number randomly chosen) to the number 4 store, in the Mercantile building.

Example 2: I am really lucky, and win a store in Cordor in the Mercantile building. But I am lazy and I throw dungeon loot into it, at bad prices, and I don't stock much. The fifth day is my first "check" so my poor storekeeping is ignored, but on the 15th day I am demoted to a store in Furth's Tradepost.

----------------

Such a system maintains the lottery so that everyone has an equal chance, as well as rewarding people for their effort, at the same time as taking it out of the hands of the city's leaders so that they don't simply give properties to their buddies.

Yes, it can be gamed, to a degree, because people can just get their friends to buy their stuff... but whenever that happens, the city is getting taxes, and to do something like that in a way that would make a difference would get expensive fast.

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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Good Character » Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:17 am

I have been giving this even further thought since I made that thread similar to this topic.

1. The rules should be adjusted for evictions to avoid needing DM intervention. Instead, make it to where there's an unbreakable/unstealable message board owned by the settlement near the majority of shops or by the main settlement message board; settlement leaders can remove messages from the board and assign positions that can do the same to help with griefing and clutter.

If a shop is absolutely going to be evicted, require a message be put on this board with 1. Who and what shop you're addressing, 2. When to move out (must be a minimum of 7 RL days), 3. Signing your name. No disguises allowed.

RP is still being conducted. The shop owner has time to react whether it be to exact revenge or to remove their items.

2. Still believe citizens should have more weight when bidding on a settlement shop. 3x more likely vs. a non-citizen. Bonus only kicks in after X amount of RL months into a citizenship.

JustMonika
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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by JustMonika » Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:02 am

I think a fairly reasonable change of the rule would be to allow settlement leaders to evict shopowners with no direct RP after a two week warning. Stick a note on the major message board, stick a sign outside the shop saying they're required, and if two weeks later they're still dodging the summons, they can be removed.

I'm not sure that goes much of the way to addressing the other concerns raised, though. Though I think the "Bad shops" are mostly balenced out by the "Good shops", so it's not much of an issue, and resource scacity will always be a thing on persistant worlds.

Temporarily back to Arelith and currently Lilliana Snowfire.

If you have unfinished business with Ultrianan, let me know! Arabella has been rolled.


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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Cagus » Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:13 pm

Arienette wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:03 pm
Well, you are reacting on the reaction on argument about the specific situation.

But to answer to you, if depends on who you want to prioritize. You have difference actors like industrious shop owner, non-industrious 'lazy' shop owner, settlement, customers et sim.
As you said, settlement doesn't care much about the setting, so in this they are pretty irrelevant in this scope.

And it is obvious, when you have nothing to sell, but you want your shop looking not deserted, you put the things with higher price, so those don't sell. Or just flood it with any clutter you found lying have around. I believe if you see you have to pay for that clutter, you will stop doing that. If you only pay for shop, you will just keep paying for it, even if it more expensive, because you feel it is still something valuable. You need to psychologically differentiate the shop and what you do with the shop.

Rei_Jin wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:38 am
I would love to see a decent number of (not all, mind you) the stores in a settlement put into a system which gives them a ranking based on a formula that looks at (a) number of items sold, (b) value of items sold, and (c) number of crafted items sold.
...
Example 1: I am fortunate enough to win a store in Cordor outside the coliseum. I work hard, advertise my store, stock it with highly sought after items. On the third RL day of me having the store the first "check" is done for me, which ignores my store, as it has new ownership. On the 13th day of me having the store the second "check" is done, and it sees that I've actually gotten some decent sales, and so it moves me from the number 15 store (number randomly chosen) to the number 4 store, in the Mercantile building.
I was thinking in similar way initially, but there was a problem, I think is hard to solve. It is exploitable. I use example.
I am unlucky, getting non-prominent shop. I put a lot expensive things there and then tell my friend (or 10) to buy the stuff from the shop. Then I take it from him and return the money. Rinse and repeat. Now system thinks my shop is the best in the world and I will get that sweet mercantile shop.
Try to solve this simply, I was unable.

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Rei_Jin
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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Rei_Jin » Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:46 pm

Yes, I get that people could do that, but even with people doing that?

The city won’t care because they’re getting tax on every item sold, and if the storekeeper is doing this they won’t be able to sustain sales and will eventually get bumped down.

People don’t like losing coin just for the sake of it.

Also, it would count as an exploit, and is DM punishable, so there is that (and yes, it’s something easily discernible from the logs. DMs can tell when people are money laundering, this is no different)

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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:01 am

Rei_Jin wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:46 pm
Also, it would count as an exploit, and is DM punishable, so there is that (and yes, it’s something easily discernible from the logs. DMs can tell when people are money laundering, this is no different)
But then either it just happens on accident because I dont know about you but I tell all my friends about my shop and also promote my sales old fashion mouth to ear, so how can you really tell when someone is doing it intentionally to rig the system. Also how do you know they are rigging the system as a player, rather than the character trying to rig the system in character? Seems a bit hard to enforce, I guess.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Arienette » Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:58 am

Cagus wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:13 pm
Arienette wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:03 pm
Well, you are reacting on the reaction on argument about the specific situation.

But to answer to you, if depends on who you want to prioritize. You have difference actors like industrious shop owner, non-industrious 'lazy' shop owner, settlement, customers et sim.
As you said, settlement doesn't care much about the setting, so in this they are pretty irrelevant in this scope.

And it is obvious, when you have nothing to sell, but you want your shop looking not deserted, you put the things with higher price, so those don't sell. Or just flood it with any clutter you found lying have around. I believe if you see you have to pay for that clutter, you will stop doing that. If you only pay for shop, you will just keep paying for it, even if it more expensive, because you feel it is still something valuable. You need to psychologically differentiate the shop and what you do with the shop.
This is a common misconception.

First, settlement officials have quick and easy access to shop sales records. I can click on a shop sign, click "View Sales Log" and see exactly what, when, and for how much a shop is selling.

Second, often times what appears to be "high price items that don't sell and just make the shop look full" are nothing of the sort. I, and other PCs I know of, have from time to time been accosted with angry shoppers saying "your prices are too high, thats why you always have the same inventory just sitting there." When in reality, 15 of those 100k+ gold items are selling each IRL week, and they are simply being replaced by the shop owners in the same day IRL as they are consistently sold.

A really well-run shop, which is contributed to by a family, merchant guild, etc may have an inventory of 25-30 high-priced items that seems static. but in reality the items are constantly selling and being replaced before a casual observer notices any change.

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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Good Character » Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:22 am

Arienette wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:58 am
This is a common misconception.

First, settlement officials have quick and easy access to shop sales records. I can click on a shop sign, click "View Sales Log" and see exactly what, when, and for how much a shop is selling.

Second, often times what appears to be "high price items that don't sell and just make the shop look full" are nothing of the sort. I, and other PCs I know of, have from time to time been accosted with angry shoppers saying "your prices are too high, thats why you always have the same inventory just sitting there." When in reality, 15 of those 100k+ gold items are selling each IRL week, and they are simply being replaced by the shop owners in the same day IRL as they are consistently sold.

A really well-run shop, which is contributed to by a family, merchant guild, etc may have an inventory of 25-30 high-priced items that seems static. but in reality the items are constantly selling and being replaced before a casual observer notices any change.
Can confirm this. There's a shop that's existed for real life years has always appeared to never sell items. I became the trade minister for that settlement and realized the shop made 1.5 million in a single game month.

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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:54 pm

I don't like the idea of not being able to bid on a shop if you own one already. That would make everything worse. If I see a shop in a better location, it means to bid on it I now have to abandon my current shop. So if I lose the bid on the current shop, I'll go bid on my old shop again. Rinse, repeat until I get a shop in a good location. And I tell you now I won't be the only one doing it. There won't be any stable out of the way shops because the moment a shop in a good location comes up, a whole lot of people with out of the way shop locations will ditch the shop to bid on the better shop. This will make out of the way shops extremely volatile and will lower shop quality considerably.

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Re: Feedback on Shop Purchase / Bidding System

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:01 pm

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:54 pm
I don't like the idea of not being able to bid on a shop if you own one already. That would make everything worse. If I see a shop in a better location, it means to bid on it I now have to abandon my current shop. So if I lose the bid on the current shop, I'll go bid on my old shop again. Rinse, repeat until I get a shop in a good location. And I tell you now I won't be the only one doing it. There won't be any stable out of the way shops because the moment a shop in a good location comes up, a whole lot of people with out of the way shop locations will ditch the shop to bid on the better shop. This will make out of the way shops extremely volatile and will lower shop quality considerably.
Good. I dont see a problem with anything here.

You can bid on a new shop after leaving your old one. This means that upgrading to a better location is not risk free (in fact, the odds are against you as you're required to leave your shop and only get a *chance* to get the new better one). This will make people think twice before systematically bidding on any good location shop they happen to see just because they got nothing better to do with their coin and the bids costs are *always* worth it right now, as there's no risk at all. But if they cannot bid while owning it means that less people will be bidding on shops in general, as only those without shops already are able to bid and for every person with a shop that's choosing to bid, there's another shop getting released somewhere. It also means that shops in "bad" locations are going to be much easier to achieve for everyone equally.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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