Rogue Redux Feedback

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs, Contributors

Cabarcos
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 165
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:49 pm
Location: Barcelona

Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Cabarcos » Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:55 pm

Tabby wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:09 pm
Today, i made a Relevel, then the server crashed.
Relogged in, and made Level up (from lvl 1-> 30) no of the new changes was possible to select.
Are they live? Or did i relevel at a wromg time.
I just made the relevel now. Server did a crash about an hour ago?

Should i relevel again or wait?
Level 5 Human Rogue.
I releveled after entering and appearing in the Entry Zone as level 1, and still no Dirty Fighting.

I think the skill points are not enough, but the same could be said for any class (even after the increase made some time ago)
Even with 18 Intelligence there are some skills that I'd like and can't get.
Just to be a stealthy rogue and be able to deal with traps and locks, you need a lot of skills. Tumble and UMD are a must-have too.
If you only needed 20 points you will have enough, but for most of them, you need at least 30.
I've made lots of rogues over the years and they were always human. I almost decided to make this time a halfing, but in the end, decided again for human (for the skill point and because to make a character with very low stats in an RP server is beyond me).

AstralUniverse
Posts: 2723
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:54 pm

Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:38 pm

Slapstick wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:17 am
AstralUniverse wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:55 am
Gruesome Technics is something I'm pretty sure a lot of rogues will use for leveling solo more easily and will drop at lvl 30 for something else.
Why do you think that? It seems fairly good even at 30 for dealing with trash, and it seems like I'm able to fit the other essentials. Just curious to hear why you consider it suboptimal at 30.
Because I dont think it's that good in general outside of soloing. It's nice, I guess, but I put it lower in priority over other things unless the player wants to solo and then I'd consider it for that.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


JustMonika
Posts: 274
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by JustMonika » Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:02 am

It seems this is known, but not documented here, so just for the sake of completeness, the current implimentation of rogue seems bugged, and they do not currently recieve Dirty Fighting for free as indicated.

Temporarily back to Arelith and currently Lilliana Snowfire.

If you have unfinished business with Ultrianan, let me know! Arabella has been rolled.


Slapstick
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:06 am

Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Slapstick » Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:42 am

Cabarcos wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:55 pm
I think the skill points are not enough, but the same could be said for any class (even after the increase made some time ago)
Even with 18 Intelligence there are some skills that I'd like and can't get.
Just to be a stealthy rogue and be able to deal with traps and locks, you need a lot of skills. Tumble and UMD are a must-have too.
If you only needed 20 points you will have enough, but for most of them, you need at least 30.
I've made lots of rogues over the years and they were always human. I almost decided to make this time a halfing, but in the end, decided again for human (for the skill point and because to make a character with very low stats in an RP server is beyond me).
I had the same feeling with 18 int human. I only have enough points if I only put 1 point in OL/DT which is hardly what I would want to do on a rogue. I would think rogue could be well served by even further increase in skill points, making it harder for other classes (*cough* bard *cough*) to perform on the same level skill-wise

User avatar
Waldo52
Posts: 589
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:09 pm

Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Waldo52 » Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:27 am

I wrote a post last night. I'm not sure if it was deleted or if I made an error but I'll keep this one shorter.

The methods are cool in principle. The only problem is that grenades seems like the best by far. Grenades are probably a little underpowered and expensive, but they're one of the closest things we have to a serious redeeming quality for the class.

The increase in rogue feats looks good, but it's an illusion. Everyone is going to buy back grenades, meaning that a 24-25 rogue/5-6 X (the viable deep rogue build) will see no benefit whatsoever. 26-30 rogue levels will see a small benefit with the new feat progression, but this is not a viable build anyway.

Maybe make the alternative methods stronger and grant methods as their own thing so that they don't eat away at the rogue's feat economy. I personally love the grenade concept, but I'd like to be able to build something different that's actually good.

Dirty fighting for free is actually really cool, but we're still dealing with a skill and combat focused class that lacks the skill ranks necessary to do basic iconic rogue things without giving up discipline or UMD. We're still worse than bards at being generally skilly. We struggle to hit things and we struggle to survive getting hit by things.

TL;DR

Our additional rogue feats should not be wasted on buying back grenades. Alternative methods should be viable. Methods should not waste rogue feats. Dirty fighting is an excellent start, thank you dev team.

satan
Posts: 191
Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:11 pm

Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by satan » Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:44 am

Dirty fighting still not given automatically as of tonight.
Xyxz - Goblin spider druid. RIP
Flail - Orog weapon master RIP
Krom - Half orc Barbarian RIP
Glyngolyn - Firbolg Shadowdancer RIP
Jigjog - the least industrious Kobold ACTIVE
Muck - munching on carion. ACTIVE

Mortem_Fero
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun May 24, 2020 10:27 am

Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Mortem_Fero » Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:13 pm

Rogue as concept:

Think I agree what has been said so far. Also agree that a rogue can come in many forms and that does not mean that he has to tick all the boxes at once (grenadier and trickster at once)

For me main theme about a rogue as a concept in out of combat is "cunning" (fighting smart, looking for weakness in armor, distract socially or with feints and/gadgets)

A rogue should be vulnerable when caught in the open in a regular confrontation but if played right should always have an ace up his sleeve to tilt the outcome in his favour.

Might be me but I also see rogue to be somewhat proficient at dual wielding (hidden side arm) but that is an archetype just like grenadier and just a other form of the many faces of rogues (have not seen that mentioned) - this is also now an empty feat on the Rogue the sword and dagger proficiency feat.

Merchanics: (not sure how much suggestion we are supposed to post here)

Let's assume Bard stays as it is (skill access of all "rogue skills) and being the "better rogue) and pixies continue to be able to open all locks

Would be cool if rogue would get some exclusive perks related to SF and/or ESF in rogue skills like open lock, set trap etc to elevate rogue usefulness and what people described here as "being rogue"

- chance to find extra loot when open a chest
- chance to sell an item for more gold (haggle/blackmarket)
- having some of his sneak attack affect sneak immune enemies (like the paladin path that can lands crits on crit immune enemies)
- etc pretty sure other players can come up with better ideas

I am not saying Rogue should get all above or thay they have to get any combat related feats or any at all. Some perks that enable some goodies related to skills can locked behind high level of rogues and the corresponding skill focus feat.

Really happy rogue is getting some love and I also did not consider the inclusion of Vigilante in here.

User avatar
LichBait
Posts: 422
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:50 pm
Location: US EST Timezone

Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by LichBait » Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:20 pm

Rogue as a concept is fairly lacking in an infiltrator/trickster capacity at present. Most classes have various ways to avoid scrying and have synergy with bluff. Their detection skills are typically sub par as well.

Also, rogue lacks any kind of class-based endgame equipment boost. The best things a rogue can use require maxed out UMD at best, and some are beyond it w/o gearing for it. Namely assassin and SD do rogue things better than rogue and have gear to assist.

Current
Ayiesha Dahyarif
Ilphaeryl Xun'viir


User avatar
Waldo52
Posts: 589
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:09 pm

Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Waldo52 » Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:23 am

Let's look at it this way: there are plenty of rogue-ish classes. What does the rogue do that these other rogue-ish classes don't? If there's a coherent philosophy for what rogues are supposed to be, does this update implement it properly?

Let's start by looking at what other roguey classes do:

Assassin: Does significantly more damage than a rogue, with excellent gear support and the threat of free paralysis thrown in. Only 6 sided hit dice, fewer skill ranks and no grenade progression hurt but there's a real niche here as a damage dealer and disabler. Sneak attack + hold person equivalent is horrifying.

Shadowdancer: Better for soloing, much more difficult/deceptive/frustrating to fight against. Also has a hold person equivalent, which is even more frustrating when it's hard to tell the character apart from his distraction summons and they're all sneak attacking you.

Ranger: Dexterity rangers are probably a little weak, but they have the benefit of higher HD and BaB, more reliable damage, animal companions, utility and support spells, good gear support, damage bonuses that don't rely on stealth/flat footing and a much more comfortable feat economy.

Swashbuckler: Higher AB/BaB and still has access to epic Dodge. Better defensively. Still not an excellent class but a solid concept with some good uses.

Why build a deep brogue when we have all these alternatives?

One of the main draws is grenades. But grenades have fairly weak DCs, do weak damage or have short durations. Nothing in this update has addressed any of this, we have to buy them back with no net benefit. Even if a flashbang goes off, a half second of lag or a few feet of range can ruin your day and they cost a LOT of gold. Fire bombs can take a lot of effort to find/make and don't seem to do enough damage to feel worthwhile. Even going 30 rogue won't get your damage high enough.

*Edit: A note on grenades: Grenades are the only method that scales with rogue levels. Because we had to buy them back and the other options scale poorly, the methods do very little for deep rogues and make it much more appealing to take many levels in other classes.*

Another big advantage is access to rogue feats, but this too is problematic. There's a big incentive to take the bare minimum needed for epic dodge (16? Forgot the exact number) with other levels dumped into better classes for access to epic dodge. Other late game rogue feats like epic skill focus and blinding speed are genuinely useful, but the class is generally so weak that more rogue feats don't enough good to justify our existence.

Skills are one of the main selling points of the class. No one gets as many skill ranks as we do, but bards are generally seen as more skilly while having the enormous benefits of spellcasting. Free epic skill foci are cool, but we use it on hide/ms which we're not much better at than comparable classes and discipline which is more of a damage control effort than a class strength.

Then of course we have sneak attack and crippling strike. But many assassins have both (with the former at a much accelerated progression) and other classes like weapon masters/barbarians/full casters have exponentially better damage dealing or debuffing abilities.

This leaves me with a serious question for the dev team: is there really a coherent philosophy regarding what a rogue is, or what a rogue is supposed to do? We're probably in a solid spot in terms of assassin/shadowdancer/general martial builds but we're in a serious hole with regard to deep rogues.

This update is s very modest improvement, but we've been waiting for something more substantial for a long time. I still can't justify building a rogue beyond the idea of playing what I'm comfortable with. Deep rogues are not dominating in terms of skills, damage, defenses, crippling opponents, wearing disguises or anything else. At this point all I can say is I move faster in stealth and my traps are a little harder to see.

This is a harsh assessment, but it's reality. The update isn't going to help us kill rats in the granary and it's not going to do much in any level 30 encounter. We're still not sure of what a rogue's niche is.

Please keep the updates coming though, even these modest changes are appreciated. We've been so weak for so long that anything is better than nothing.

Ironsoul
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:52 pm

Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Ironsoul » Sat Sep 24, 2022 2:02 pm

Every 10 levels Rogue's get a free skill focus feat - epic skill focus at levels 20, 30

This is separate from the other bonus feats.

Alternatively - Give rogues a "skill specialization" path, similar to the Spell School changes with Wizards. Pick a handful of flavorful rogue skills and give them a line of evolving perks tied to rogue levels. Each rogue with sufficient levels gets to pick one skill as their "Skill Mastery"

Example - Maybe a Hide/MS rogue would start with SF Hide/MS at lower levels, unlock trackless Step/Stealthy at mid levels, unlock concealing tracks at 1 per class levels like a Ranger in the epics and a 28 Rogue would unlock an even greater speed bonus while moving in stealth.

Babylon System is the Vampire
Posts: 951
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:14 am

Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:29 pm

I think it was a solid update all around. It made the class better without breaking it as far as I can tell, which is really tricky to do. Kudos Kenji.

The one thing I think they still need are high end grenades that are good in group pvp. I'm not suggesting they be as good as the current big three because they are all really good if you are alone, but in a group they can be as painful as they are helpful and I would really hesitate to toss one without a good plan going in with the people i was fighting with, which let's face it doesn't happen as much as it should on Arelith. So, you are essentially giving up the new free feat at 7 and going to 24 rogue, both of which come at a cost Since 23 would have always been the rogue cut off if they got their epic feat at 23 before this change. 23 rogue/4 fighter/3 divine dip will now definitely be a good build, as will something like 23 rogue/4 fighter/3 ranger for archer feats for ranged rogues.

So yeah, unless you give a grenade rogue something good in a group, im fairly certain skipping it going forward is going to be the easy choice.

User avatar
Waldo52
Posts: 589
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:09 pm

Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Waldo52 » Sat Sep 24, 2022 8:04 pm

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:29 pm
I think it was a solid update all around. It made the class better without breaking it as far as I can tell, which is really tricky to do. Kudos Kenji.

The one thing I think they still need are high end grenades that are good in group pvp. I'm not suggesting they be as good as the current big three because they are all really good if you are alone, but in a group they can be as painful as they are helpful and I would really hesitate to toss one without a good plan going in with the people i was fighting with, which let's face it doesn't happen as much as it should on Arelith. So, you are essentially giving up the new free feat at 7 and going to 24 rogue, both of which come at a cost Since 23 would have always been the rogue cut off if they got their epic feat at 23 before this change. 23 rogue/4 fighter/3 divine dip will now definitely be a good build, as will something like 23 rogue/4 fighter/3 ranger for archer feats for ranged rogues.

So yeah, unless you give a grenade rogue something good in a group, im fairly certain skipping it going forward is going to be the easy choice.
Not a bad point. I don't think we should do anything damage oriented that ignores friendly fire because that would go against the spirit of the server, but a late game helpful grenade of some kind would be a lot of fun.

Eyeliner
Posts: 479
Joined: Wed May 12, 2021 12:27 am

Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Eyeliner » Sat Sep 24, 2022 8:11 pm

Just looking at the spellcraft vs grenade DC issue would be huge.

Nobs
Posts: 345
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:32 pm

Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Nobs » Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:42 am

perhaps high level rogues should be able to put poison on blades/items and place traps with out breaking stealth.
it would make ussing sutch tools actualy worth it.

TurningLeaf
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 220
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:22 am

Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by TurningLeaf » Sun Sep 25, 2022 4:06 pm

I think skill mastery at level 7 is a big QoL boost- you can already have imp exp by then which means you can do alright setting traps in combat if you get stuck in an unfavorable situation.

User avatar
Waldo52
Posts: 589
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:09 pm

Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Waldo52 » Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:26 pm

TurningLeaf wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 4:06 pm
I think skill mastery at level 7 is a big QoL boost- you can already have imp exp by then which means you can do alright setting traps in combat if you get stuck in an unfavorable situation.
I disagree. We have so many must-have rogue feats that this one was already hard to afford, and given the overall strength of the alternatives grenades are basically mandatory.

Skill mastery is very useful QoL stuff for a while if you take it knowing you'll replace it with -relevel, but we're not supposed to be doing that.

TurningLeaf
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 220
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:22 am

Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by TurningLeaf » Sun Sep 25, 2022 6:30 pm

Waldo52 wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:26 pm
TurningLeaf wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 4:06 pm
I think skill mastery at level 7 is a big QoL boost- you can already have imp exp by then which means you can do alright setting traps in combat if you get stuck in an unfavorable situation.
I disagree. We have so many must-have rogue feats that this one was already hard to afford, and given the overall strength of the alternatives grenades are basically mandatory.

Skill mastery is very useful QoL stuff for a while if you take it knowing you'll replace it with -relevel, but we're not supposed to be doing that.
I think your proposal would pretty much rule out the use of epic traps in combat, so disagree back atcha. :)

White935
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:15 am

Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by White935 » Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:02 pm

Ironsoul wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 2:02 pm
Every 10 levels Rogue's get a free skill focus feat - epic skill focus at levels 20, 30

This is separate from the other bonus feats.

Alternatively - Give rogues a "skill specialization" path, similar to the Spell School changes with Wizards. Pick a handful of flavorful rogue skills and give them a line of evolving perks tied to rogue levels. Each rogue with sufficient levels gets to pick one skill as their "Skill Mastery"

Example - Maybe a Hide/MS rogue would start with SF Hide/MS at lower levels, unlock trackless Step/Stealthy at mid levels, unlock concealing tracks at 1 per class levels like a Ranger in the epics and a 28 Rogue would unlock an even greater speed bonus while moving in stealth.

Could make a bonus perk, that every x level of rogue (5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30)
you get a unique bonus feat, like Stealth specialization +2 hide/ms, Trapper: +2 use trap/+2 disarm trap, Locksmith +4 open lock.
Could make a Epic variant you get if you become a epic rogue, at the same intervalls.


------------------------------------------

My feedback
My experience: rogue lvl 25, (planning pure rogue, yes, not ideal i know).
Feedback: Rogues are by on Arelith great skill monkies, they gain more skills than any other classes and arelith has improved their hitpoints and somewhat solved their issue related to feat-starvation, recent changes has even improved it future.

Rogues can really be both just a dip, or partial class to allow for a flanker combatant, or give access to certain skills.
as a pure rogue you're a skill monkey with access to some unique tools that are practical (nades) even if they have some faults and issues.

I personally don't think there's anything wrong with rogue, it's just slightly weaker than the other classes in combat, due to lower AB, ARP and sadly damage as a result of arelith's balance has made critical strikes a reliable way fight. But a rogue has alot more than just direct combat going for it, and recent changes has even helped to boost it slightly.

If i was to point any real weakness to rogues is that sneak attack is originally intended to be their holy grail to make up for their lower attacks bonus, and attacks per round, but on Arelith most fighters will build with critical strikes in mind.. and can far more effectively deal damage. Equally a rogue has to choose between taking combat feats to try and somehow compete with the martial classes, or take skill focus towards the skill monkey section.

I'd try to enable rogues to use their skill more in combat, indirectly.
Sleight of hand is currently useless for pickpocketing monsters, it gives 7 xp and 17 gold, and items has been disabled (as pr discord discussion) it could thus safely just be removed, and instead make it a combat alternative.. like use it on a monster in stealth, to apply a debuff to AB/AC if done undetected, simulating the rogue preforming sabotage, a way to weaken more difficult spawns for the team.

Master Ambusher, rogues already get some pretty decent bonuses in form of a +1/+2 ab when coming out of stealth, one of the weakness of a pure rogue is that it lacks discipline, a decent boon at level 27/28 could be to add class levels to discipline for the duration of the Stealth Bonuses helping rogues to somewhat compensate for a short period/strike.
Last edited by White935 on Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Waldo52
Posts: 589
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:09 pm

Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Waldo52 » Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:15 pm

TurningLeaf wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 6:30 pm
Waldo52 wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:26 pm
TurningLeaf wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 4:06 pm
I think skill mastery at level 7 is a big QoL boost- you can already have imp exp by then which means you can do alright setting traps in combat if you get stuck in an unfavorable situation.
I disagree. We have so many must-have rogue feats that this one was already hard to afford, and given the overall strength of the alternatives grenades are basically mandatory.

Skill mastery is very useful QoL stuff for a while if you take it knowing you'll replace it with -relevel, but we're not supposed to be doing that.
I think your proposal would pretty much rule out the use of epic traps in combat, so disagree back atcha. :)
Not exactly.

I've been chewed out on these boards for being fairly crappy with numbers/crunch, but if there's one niche I feel fairly confident in it's playing PvP oriented trapper rogues.

The forumula that arelith uses for trap DCs is somewhat customized. You have a detect DC and then you have the actual DC for avoiding the effects of the trap. As of my last PGCC experient several months back, it's very hard to get the actual DC for avoiding damage/effects higher. SF/ESF: Use traps and special rogue goodies will get the detect DC significantly higher, but it's very hard to make the trap effect/damage DC stronger.

We can engage in a sort of arms race with detect obsessed meme characters and potentially win, but these characters are few and far between. The conditions in which modest Use Trap bonuses help us are extremely situational.

1) You need to know that a PvP encounter is happening and have the foresight to plant traps.

2) You need to be fighting an opponent with an amazing detect skill.

Even as a guy who regularly takes ESF: Set traps and ensures an odd number for dexterity at level one to ensure that I can replace Great Dexterity with ESF: Set Trap, I recognize that the conditions in which wasting additional rogue feats on small detect DC only bonuses seem so fringe that it doesn't keep me up at night.

I'd love to be corrected or out-argued because if there's anything out there that'll make traps significantly better in the late stages of the game I'd like to know about it. But as far as I can tell Skill Focus + Skill mastery + ESF will only make you a better trapper in terms of detection, and then only against the most autistically dedicated fringe of the server, a benefit that might help you once or twice in the lifetime of a ten year old character.

If we were talking about making the actual damage/effect DCs of the traps stronger this would be a different conversation and I might have to go home and -relevel.

TurningLeaf
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 220
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:22 am

Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by TurningLeaf » Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:18 pm

I was just meaning the set DC, for epic traps it spikes up to 65 so you need minimum 45 use trap to set it. It wouldn't make sense to attempt setting one in combat without skill mastery unless your skill was 63 or higher. But with 45 and skill mastery you can. If you can succeed in laying one at your enemy's feet I am not sure the detect DC matters, but you're right for other situations it would be hugely important.

jubisloviu
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:15 am

Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by jubisloviu » Wed Sep 28, 2022 12:21 am

I honestly feel like granting rogues an extra feat at 7 was a step into a good direction, a lot of times as a rogue you'd have to sacrifice something you might want for the roleplay like skill mastery, to something that would be more efficient (for instance crippling strike).
granting dirty fighting at level 4 to rogues also help with the early levelling and is a excellent boon for str rogues that wouldn't be able to acquire the feat otherwise, and remains useful for your entire character lifespan (assuming you are a melee rogue that is).
Being allowed to acquire a signature weapon also helps a bit with one of the biggest deep rogue problems wich is an AB that is comparatively on the tail end of other common melee classes.

But them locking the grenades wich should be a base class feature behind a feat is a mistake in my point of view.
rogues are not shoehorned into using grenades, they're merely tools to help rogues overcome some difficulties of the rogue life on the island, for instance dealing with undeads.
it's totally fine to not use rogue grenades as a rogue, that's your choice. but locking it behind a feat feels like the extra feat is merely an illusion.

User avatar
Watchful Glare
Posts: 304
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:55 pm

Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Watchful Glare » Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:51 pm

Having it so Rogue Grenades don't take Spellcraft into account would be good. It's already very easy to get saves up to 30~33 without accounting for spellcraft in any case. Reviewing a handful of them would be good. Most grenades are not very useul as it stands.

Smoke Screen applies the debuff to yourself. Still useful, I suppose, for maxing Hide.

Dust of Silence is solid. You get a bonus to hide/ms. It's good. Nothing more to add here.

Disjunction Shard is utterly useless. 2 Breaches on save. You already have access to Greater Breach, or Mordenkainen's. That's 6 breaches. Maybe this is useful to throw at constructs in PvE, but that's about it.

Mirror Dust. This would be very useful, but last I checked you drop it at your feet and debuff yourself too. Lose AB and miss % Chance. Would be good otherwise. I might be wrong.

Paralytic Caltrops. Need someone to roll a 1 for them to trigger, as well as not having Freedom of Movement up. The information on the wiki is somewhat lacking as the % of movement speed lost. Even should they roll a 1, they are still immune to it for 3 rounds thereafter. Really not good at all. They are also not paralysed, they are immobilized. If they are a spellcaster, an archer, they can keep attacking. Or failing that, drink a potion of Freedom of Movement and carry on as they were.

Flashbang. Throw a granade at someone and bait to see if they roll a 1 for a single round stun, making them immune to it for 3 rounds thereafter (and immune to caltrops as well). Terrible choice to use in any situation. If you throw it from afar (as one would imagine grenades could frequently be used) and it lands on that 5% chance of affecting someone, you'd lose the round of the stun in closing the distance anyways.

Rogues getting more bonuses to hide/ms and/or spot would be good.
Biz here was a constant subliminal hum, and death the accepted punishment for laziness, carelessness, lack of grace, the failure to heed the demands of an intricate protocol.

User avatar
Scurvy Cur
Posts: 1310
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:48 am

Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Scurvy Cur » Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:12 pm

LichBait wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:20 pm
Rogue as a concept is fairly lacking in an infiltrator/trickster capacity at present. Most classes have various ways to avoid scrying and have synergy with bluff. Their detection skills are typically sub par as well.

Also, rogue lacks any kind of class-based endgame equipment boost. The best things a rogue can use require maxed out UMD at best, and some are beyond it w/o gearing for it. Namely assassin and SD do rogue things better than rogue and have gear to assist.
A lot of this problem is the result of the synergy between assassin/SD and rogue.

I've disliked the rogue class synergy for a while now, and think it should be done away with. It simply creates a situation where all the rogue class features (with the exception of improvised devices/grenades) scale 1:1 with classes that mirror a rogue's skillset and AB progression, but have other features as well. As a result, there's seldom a reason to play rogue as anything more than the opener class to get you feature access, then carry on as SD or Sin.


User avatar
Waldo52
Posts: 589
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:09 pm

Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Waldo52 » Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:50 pm

Scurvy Cur wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:12 pm
LichBait wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:20 pm
Rogue as a concept is fairly lacking in an infiltrator/trickster capacity at present. Most classes have various ways to avoid scrying and have synergy with bluff. Their detection skills are typically sub par as well.

Also, rogue lacks any kind of class-based endgame equipment boost. The best things a rogue can use require maxed out UMD at best, and some are beyond it w/o gearing for it. Namely assassin and SD do rogue things better than rogue and have gear to assist.
A lot of this problem is the result of the synergy between assassin/SD and rogue.

I've disliked the rogue class synergy for a while now, and think it should be done away with. It simply creates a situation where all the rogue class features (with the exception of improvised devices/grenades) scale 1:1 with classes that mirror a rogue's skillset and AB progression, but have other features as well. As a result, there's seldom a reason to play rogue as anything more than the opener class to get you feature access, then carry on as SD or Sin.
This is a very good point, but I'm not sure if the answer is to get rid of these synergies. Maybe just add more goodies that don't synergize. Other classes can be properly balanced by nerfing the classes around them, rogues just need to be better.

AstralUniverse
Posts: 2723
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:54 pm

Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:35 am

I would like it if the synergies didnt scale 1:1 as if they were more rogue levels, but at the same time I would also like that they didnt require rogue levels to activate. This way Rogue is *better* than other classes at something, and in turn these classes dont necessarily need rogue levels to activate these things, they'll just get slightly weaker scaling. That said tho, we should wait and see if rogue might be fine now in the current patch. Some of these buffs were meaningful.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


Post Reply