Rogue Redux Feedback

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Kenji
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Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Kenji » Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:41 am

Following the announcement thread, I'd like to invite everyone to chip in for the latest Rogue update.

Some things to keep in mind and gather the thoughts before posting:
  • There's a difference between the mechanical class, Rogue, and the concept behind the word, Rogue. There were concerns about Rogues not doing what Rogues do best. It's best to identify and clarify between the two different Rogues before posting.
  • If posting about the mechanical class, Rogue, I expect numbers, builds, or function comparisons between certain skills, feats, or grenades.
  • If posting about the conceptual word, Rogue, identify what is desired behind a Rogue concept and recognize that there is no right or wrong answer here. Another individual's vision for a Rogue may be different than yours, and that's okay.

Tesla420
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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Tesla420 » Tue Sep 20, 2022 4:22 am

I would like to see the requirements for improved sneak attack lowered.
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Gracklstugh
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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Gracklstugh » Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:41 am

Gains Dirty Fighting for free at level 4 - I think this should be increased to level 6+. Rogue dips are quite popular and strong for what they offer at the moment, I think that an extra cookie will make it even more tempting to dip just 4 rogue and stop there. Also, now that we have a required feat investment - perhaps a small increase in dmg/ DC's when it comes to grenades would be nice, since afaik, there are still affected by spellcraft.

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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Tabby » Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:31 am

Will current rogues get a relevel?
Mostly those who have a heavy dip into Rogue?
Or can one request a full relevel if desired to be able to use rogue grenades again?

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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Heroic Spirit » Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:49 am

Tabby wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:31 am
Will current rogues get a relevel?
Mostly those who have a heavy dip into Rogue?
Or can one request a full relevel if desired to be able to use rogue grenades again?
bonus feats are shifting, so it should. if it weren’t, -relevel command exists.

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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Tabby » Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:27 am

Dont relevel reset you to level 1?
Or did i misunderstood that from some update from a long time ago?

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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by toftdal » Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:36 am

Tabby wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:27 am
Dont relevel reset you to level 1?
Or did i misunderstood that from some update from a long time ago?
You get placed at level 1, yes - but with all your xp so you can just level up again :)

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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Tabby » Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:11 am

Ohh so that feature is back?
I thought it was removed due to exploit :D
Good to know thanks!

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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Slapstick » Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:57 am

This is more of a "rogue concept" feedback/idea. It's hard to play a treasure hunting dex rogue when you can't carry anything. So a suggestion that came up on discord (credit: Garlana) is a class bonus feat called "deep pockets" that gives 'x' amount of carry capacity per rogue level. Let's say it grants 20 per level, so if you take 26 levels of rogue you get 520 extra carry capacity. It is almost purely a QOL feat, but it allows a rogue to pilfer everything not nailed down and fulfill the "master treasure hunter" fantasy. It would also be uniquely rogue

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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Sandrow » Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:19 pm

I think rogues are mostly doing wonderful things unmagically. And now that so many people complaining bards win rogues on skills. I recommend to allow rogues to choose skill focus as their bonus feat (like specializeation on some skills) or something more roguish (brand new feats) with bonus on ms/hide/umd/ol/disable traps/lore/spellcraft and more.

As for fighting or leveling. I recommend a higher level of pickpocket grants a bit more gp or xp bonus. And an special dirty fight option that don't have controling effect but make an pickpocket attempt during attack. Sometimes I risk flat foot but picked nothing, sometimes I spends two rounds to find a proper position to pick pocket

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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by With Darkness and Silence » Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:33 pm

Rogue grenades are too strong not to use.

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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Tabby » Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:09 pm

Today, i made a Relevel, then the server crashed.
Relogged in, and made Level up (from lvl 1-> 30) no of the new changes was possible to select.
Are they live? Or did i relevel at a wromg time.
I just made the relevel now. Server did a crash about an hour ago?

Should i relevel again or wait?

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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by TurningLeaf » Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:39 pm

For me a rogue as a concept-
-Prefers to deal with threats through surprise or indirect means; medium combat capabilities. This has to include not wearing heavy armor somehow, heavy armor is anti concept.
-Has some variety of non-combat specialized skills which are above and beyond what a warrior or a caster can achieve.

Mechanically-
Some of the free feats are interesting. To me another way to approach buffing rogue in-concept would be to give some free Skill focus feats within the rogue skill list.

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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Hazard » Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:29 am

Rogues as a concept to me include the usual trope sterotypes.

Agile.
Clever.
Leather armor or less.
Not necessarily a thief, but could totally be a thief.
Not necesarrily a spy, but could totally be a spy.
In dungeons and dragons they tend to have the classic role of being the one that deals with stealth, sneak attacks, locks and traps.
Poisons and crime also seem very on brand.

I haven't had a chance to rebuild my deep rogue yet since the update. Just glancing at it, it 'looks' like a buff. Right?
I think they should end up with two extra feats, at the optional cost of grenades.

Rogues have a lot of skills to invest into, and I'd really like to see them get more skill points if that's at all possible.
For example, on this deep rogue I'm playing, I dumped as much int as I could afford while still hitting as high dex as possible (very important for a build that struggles for AB to squeeze out that extra 1 point), and after investing in all the 'normal/classic' rogue skills like traps, stealth, tumble, umd, etc... I'm left without enough points for bluff, appraise or even sleight of hand. Obviously not asking for them to be able to get everything, or anything, just an example. Not a big deal. Probably even fine.

You 'could' get by with more points by just putting 1 into Open Lock and Disarm Trap and gearing for it instead, but that's degenerate. Would rather .... not. Yeah.

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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Subtext » Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:05 am

Hmm.
Regarding the mechanical class rogue.
I don't dislike the update. At all. It's cool to get some vigilante cookies and I am excited about trying them out although I'll hold feedback on those specifically until after I got to do that. What comes to mind is how specialty weapon interacts with the rogue specialty weapon bonus.

I do like that Opportunist and Skill Mastery got some better use and an actual incentive to take them although I would rate Opportunist as the significantly better one here given the potential to beef out the stealth game.

Receiving Dirty Fighting for free is a good thing and alleviates the power creep incurred since the change to weapon finesse.

The change to disjunction grenades was a much needed one as well. No complaints there.

That said.

What the update doesn't actually do is address the issue of feat starvation within the class. Yes, you do receive potentially two extra feats - one at level 7, another one de facto at level 26. However, one feat now has to be either spent on grenades - and even without the disjunction change they would've been still too good not to take - and the other one comes fairly late to the point that most viable builds will not get affected. Defensive Roll and Improved Evasion are also requirements for Epic Dodge so these feats are all but must haves for any dexterity based rogue.
Moreover, the main issue with the class from my point of view isn't exactly the selection of special feats but mainly the availability of feats in pre epic levels. There are seven general feats available in pre epic levels (eight as human). Generally considered as must-haves are the following:

Blind Fight
(Improved) Expertise
Weapon Focus
Ambidexterity, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting OR Rapid Shot and Point Blank Shot

That leaves one feat if you play human or two feats if you play human and want to forego Called Shot. Or in worse cases no feats and all and then the feat tax for a prestige class really does start to hurt.

The ways to alleviate this are usually fighter levels (The classic 24/6). That build also handily includes shields (which Rogues by default are lacking). However, builds outside of that "meta" are kinda hosed when it comes to that. I'd hope to see something thrown in there in the mid level range - too far in for a dip to benefit from it but still part of a pre epic progression.
These could either be "combat style feats" (aka either feats from the two weapon fighting line or the ranged line) - in that case, taking a fighter dip would be a little less attractive - or something as simple as skill foci (which would fit the conceptual rogue theme fairly well).

Also. The extra feat at de facto 26 is just unreachable for combinations that dip a full AB martial class in order to have access to discipline (another must-have skill for most!) unless they wish to sacrifice a full APR. It would work better for builds that don't reach full APR anyway but then there are still more interesting options to take (25/5 Rogue/Loremaster for example).

In regards to rogue special bonus feats - Improved Evasion and Defensive Roll are must-haves for Epic Dodge. Crippling Strike is generally considered a must-have for melee rogues and still outclasses Opportunist or Skill Mastery despite the improvements. Likewise, grenades offer a lot more than either of those two improved feats. I am certain that outside of deeply specialized and gimmicky builds, the vast majority will gravitate to the same setup as before.

And a very short before/after comparison of a few more involved rogue builds...

24/6 Rogue/Fighter
No change unless you want to switch out grenades for one of the vigilante feats (which I wouldn't recommend). 26/4 runs into the issues outlined before.

8/6/16 Rogue/Fighter/Shadowdancer
Might gain an extra AB (depending on the interaction between chosen weapon and rogue-ish bonus AB) or have the AoE fear on kill which can come in handy for PvE

24/6 Rogue/Ranger
Same situation as 24/6 Fighter/Rogue whereas 26/4 would fall short for the same reasons.

tldr:
The change looks like it falls short given established meta. The addition of Dirty Fighting however is neat and alleviates the weapon finesse creep nicely.

---

In response to some other ideas:

Adding carrying capacity based on rogue levels - I wouldn't do that. It's a qol issue affecting every non-strength character and I'd much rather see a slight capacity increase based on dexterity for everyone (even if at a significantly smaller scale than what you gain from strength). That's character concept rogue territory more so than mechanical rogue.

More skill points. It's not entirely without merit especially when compared with the current bard situation. Mind you, a properly leveled bard essentially gains 10-20 free skill points in any skill that's useful to them but where they don't feel like investing deeply. Open Lock and Disable Trap come to mind right from the top of my head. And of course there's the lore bonus. But I also think the problem is less rogues having too few skill points but more so bards just being overly strong in that regard.

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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Eyeliner » Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:14 am

I think there are some other builds that could work. With +4 weapons you could take 19 or 20 rogue levels and still make solid use of grenades (the top tier aren't as useful as you think since spellcraft applies against the save). I haven't played one but I think a 19 or 20 rogue/5 or 6 fighter or ranger or IB/4 or 5 loremaster could be a solid character with a ton of RP tricks.

Speaking of loremaster I think some version of scroll and wand mastery and increased CL when using them could be a very useful bonus feat for rogues as well.

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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:55 am

I like the update a lot.


The epic feats progression change is mostly cosmetic.

Opportunist change is also mostly cosmetic imo. (simply because it's still so much worse than other options and no one will be able to afford it unless they are starting to tank ab/ac just to get stealth as high as possible for meme's sake)

Skill mastery is nice for quarter breakers but that too is mostly cosmetic because a rogue is still going to need a bard friend to get in and a bard is still not going to need a 7 level rogue dip for this feat to do what it does already. Nothing changed, to put it simply. (I PMed Kenji with the full math behind this)

grenades now requiring a feat is kind of a trap but it's balanced out by the extra feat granted at 7th. So there's no buff or nerf here per-se, just more flexibility and the option to not even be a grenadier, which I'll touch in a second.

Dirty fighting is awesome. I consider this the real meat here and the main reason rogue might be just fine and in a good state now.

Disjunction shards buff is very welcome but I dont think it's enough to justify getting grenades. a lesser breach wand is also guaranteed to breach and doesnt cost a feat. Rogue's main grenades which are actually useful (choking powder and acid bomb) are not rogue exclusive and do not require a feat so at that point that grenades feat is almost a trap if not just full on a trap.

Methods are great. I havent thought about this buff angle and I like it a lot. I was a bit concerned by AB powercreep on rogue and didnt really want to see rogue just get more ab out of the blue so I'm glad it was implemented as an option which comes with the cost of dropping grenades (which I currently recommend a lot), or crippling strike, or possibly both for 2 ab, or possibly 2 ab and also crippling strike if you dont need great dex feat.

Gruesome Technics is something I'm pretty sure a lot of rogues will use for leveling solo more easily and will drop at lvl 30 for something else.

I think Rogue should be mostly fine now.
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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by ElvenEdibles » Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:49 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:55 am
Gruesome Technics is something I'm pretty sure a lot of rogues will use for leveling solo more easily and will drop at lvl 30 for something else.
I'd prefer not to lose -relevel again so let's not casually promote abusing it?

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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:55 am

ElvenEdibles wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:49 am
AstralUniverse wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:55 am
Gruesome Technics is something I'm pretty sure a lot of rogues will use for leveling solo more easily and will drop at lvl 30 for something else.
I'd prefer not to lose -relevel again so let's not casually promote abusing it?
releveling out 1 feat isnt really what I would consider an abuse (but I would exclude gold/item generating feats and skills here). If you have doubts you can ask the DMs. I know I have more than once. lets not derail the thread further.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by ElvenEdibles » Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:02 am

I would be shocked if a DM ruled that taking a feat for the express purpose of making leveling easier with every intention of dumping it for another feat at level 30 wasnt "gaming the system"

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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by -XXX- » Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:25 am

If a feature is the optimal choice for leveling, but becomes suboptimal upon reaching max lvl, then that's a design flaw.

Perhaps Gruesome Techniques should also confer +1 AB to keep it in line with the other methods?

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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Slapstick » Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:17 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:55 am
Gruesome Technics is something I'm pretty sure a lot of rogues will use for leveling solo more easily and will drop at lvl 30 for something else.
Why do you think that? It seems fairly good even at 30 for dealing with trash, and it seems like I'm able to fit the other essentials. Just curious to hear why you consider it suboptimal at 30.

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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Cagus » Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:29 pm

I think this is still not fixed.
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=19550&p=159952&hilit=rogue#p160017

Until then all changes seems to be just cosmetic.

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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by With Darkness and Silence » Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:39 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:55 am
ElvenEdibles wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:49 am
AstralUniverse wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:55 am
Gruesome Technics is something I'm pretty sure a lot of rogues will use for leveling solo more easily and will drop at lvl 30 for something else.
I'd prefer not to lose -relevel again so let's not casually promote abusing it?
releveling out 1 feat isnt really what I would consider an abuse (but I would exclude gold/item generating feats and skills here). If you have doubts you can ask the DMs. I know I have more than once. lets not derail the thread further.
It's abuse thanks, the DMs have made announcements about this, please use your reading comprehension skills and don't promote abuse thank you~!

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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by ElevenOne » Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:34 pm

In my opinion, rogue itself as a class is not bad, the issue is everything a rogue can do, another class can do better.

- Want to build a toon that deals damage via sneak attack? Go shadow dancer, Has sneak attacks feats PLUS a tool to be able to use them properly. Also adds a stun on demand, and the concealment.

- Want to build a toon that uses certain skill (Bluff, Open lock, move silently, pick pocket or any skill)? Go bard, Song + Rogue's cunning a spell (and as a bard player, I loved this was added as a spell). Rogues don't even have any synergy with the bluff skill.

-Want a Tank? A few classes now can have the extra armor DEX bonus and also a few others can have access to epic dodge or ways to increase AC to high levels via spells.

The only thing that is "unique" to Rogues in Arelith are the grenades, which locks the build to at least 24 rogue levels, and being a 3/4 AB class, really diminishes the multiclassing options or freedom of building the toon.

Finally, another issue about Rogues is they are expensive/ too item dependent to play:

-Want to use wands? Go buy them
-Want to use traps? Enjoy the time to stockpile, or crafting them, or buy them.
-Want to use the grenades? Go buy them on a lengthy cooldown or kill enemies non-stop to gather a few more.
-Want to have access to Rogue's cunning spell? Go ahead and get the armor (1 use per rest) or the FOIG (as long as you do the work to maintain it)

-------------------------------------------------
Also want to add, as bards have the dirge as an option, Rogues have the Invisible blade prestige class.

This prestige class exchanges Grenade DC / a few sneak attack dice / multiclassing freedom for a breach on cooldown and bleeding damage, which a creature immune to critical hits gets immunity, same immunity required for sneak attacks.

For me, currently sounds as a bad trade-off.

-------------------------------------------------

Has it been considered?:

A) give them SF: Open lock and disarm trap? If swashbucklers receives the Sail feats, I don't see why Rogues could not get these SF's for free.
B) Give them rogue's cunning spell as a feat on cooldown?
C) Self-concealments feats? I or II should be enough to make them unique.
D) A way to have the 4th attack without multiclassing?
E) An option to expand building options as a STR Build instead being locked to DEX.
F) Make grenades free? Reviewed the DC formula?
G) Give them a way to use their sneak attack in different ways? For example, they could be added in a successful parry counter strike.

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