Rogue Redux Feedback

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Kenji
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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Kenji » Thu Oct 06, 2022 4:04 am

TurningLeaf wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 3:53 am
Sneak attack would be better if it was a toggle though wouldn't it? As to your other question I was referring to your 2 point list not your longer list.
I'm going to save both your and my time by saying that you are referring to more than the 2-point list because you mentioned Dirty Fighting, Epic Dodge, and Sneak Attack, all of which are from the "longer" list. The 2-point list specified Quarterbreaking and Skill Rank Ceiling.

The toggle for Sneak Attack is also irrelevant in this discussion as -guard function does exist in group play.
  • If a Bard Summons and doesn't have sneak attack, the toggle argument doesn't apply.
  • If a Rogue solos and sneak attacks, which draws aggro, the toggle argument doesn't apply.
  • If a Rogue parties and sneak attacks, which draws aggro, then -guard function exist to circumvent that. The toggle's function is minimal and superfluous at best.
Come have a talk with me on Discord if you have any more small questions like these. The format of forums is not great for small back-and-forth like this. I'd prefer if this feedback thread is filled with thoughtful insights than small inquiries that turn into minor suggestions which cause digression.

In case anyone missed it, here's the latest objective and gentle reminder:
Kenji wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 3:43 am
If you all have more feedback regarding the decision and future changes for Bards, do it at the Bard Feedback Thread.

Let's keep the posts similar to these posts as they are on topic, relevant, and productive to the matters at hand:
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=39288&start=50#p308307
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=39288&start=50#p308617

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Waldo52
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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Waldo52 » Thu Oct 06, 2022 5:59 am

Thank you Kenji! ♥️

There's a ton of feedback to sift through, so I think at this point I'll just reinforce something that I and a lot of people are saying, and this is probably the most important part of rogue class design to consider IMHO.

We need to break away from the current situation where there are very few optional feats for a reasonably competitive build.

Defensive roll/improved evasion/crippling strike/blinding speed/epic dodge, ambi, twf, itwf, blind fight, improved critical, ESF, weapon focus, epic weapon focus and in many cases great dexterity are pretty much mandatory.

The new feats and abilities are pretty compelling but they only compound the problem. The solution is to improve our feat economy.

I think I speak for a lot of rogue players when I say we do want a buff in the traditional sense, but new toys, tactics and niches would go even farther in making them playable. Assuming of course that we have the feat economy to put these toys to use.

Sorry for the "it's already been said" nature of this post, but I think it may be worth reinforcing this critical point.

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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by TurningLeaf » Thu Oct 06, 2022 5:32 pm

Kenji wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 4:04 am
TurningLeaf wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 3:53 am
Sneak attack would be better if it was a toggle though wouldn't it? As to your other question I was referring to your 2 point list not your longer list.
I'm going to save both your and my time by saying that you are referring to more than the 2-point list because you mentioned Dirty Fighting, Epic Dodge, and Sneak Attack, all of which are from the "longer" list. The 2-point list specified Quarterbreaking and Skill Rank Ceiling.

The toggle for Sneak Attack is also irrelevant in this discussion as -guard function does exist in group play.
  • If a Bard Summons and doesn't have sneak attack, the toggle argument doesn't apply.
  • If a Rogue solos and sneak attacks, which draws aggro, the toggle argument doesn't apply.
  • If a Rogue parties and sneak attacks, which draws aggro, then -guard function exist to circumvent that. The toggle's function is minimal and superfluous at best.
Come have a talk with me on Discord if you have any more small questions like these. The format of forums is not great for small back-and-forth like this. I'd prefer if this feedback thread is filled with thoughtful insights than small inquiries that turn into minor suggestions which cause digression.

In case anyone missed it, here's the latest objective and gentle reminder:
Kenji wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 3:43 am
If you all have more feedback regarding the decision and future changes for Bards, do it at the Bard Feedback Thread.

Let's keep the posts similar to these posts as they are on topic, relevant, and productive to the matters at hand:
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=39288&start=50#p308307
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=39288&start=50#p308617
I still think you misunderstood me but no big deal.

I do think its worth noting though that sneak attack can be a bad thing to have, that's not necessarily mitigated by -guard. Like if a melee rogue goes along just with caster(s) who use summons, it's usually not great. It also limits the ability of rogues to use summons on their own due to the same aggro issues.

Which is all to say that on Arelith at least I don't feel like sneak attack is a top tier feat, it is a tier 1b feat at best and probably just tier 2. Improved evasion is a top tier feat. Which would make evasion a 1b at best. But if you dipped 7 levels of rogue i think you'd far rather have your evasion you got from level 2 than the 4d6 sneak attack from 7 levels of rogue. This points to solid tier 2 feat dtatus for sneak attack. I think especially if the class is considered being rebalanced, this should be taken into account. Pointing to -guard as a solution to all the drawbacks is concerning in that light. So hopefully this won't really be the case.

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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Kenji » Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:00 pm

TurningLeaf wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 5:32 pm
I still think you misunderstood me but no big deal.

I do think its worth noting though that sneak attack can be a bad thing to have, that's not necessarily mitigated by -guard. Like if a melee rogue goes along just with caster(s) who use summons, it's usually not great. It also limits the ability of rogues to use summons on their own due to the same aggro issues.

Which is all to say that on Arelith at least I don't feel like sneak attack is a top tier feat, it is a tier 1b feat at best and probably just tier 2. Improved evasion is a top tier feat. Which would make evasion a 1b at best. But if you dipped 7 levels of rogue i think you'd far rather have your evasion you got from level 2 than the 4d6 sneak attack from 7 levels of rogue. This points to solid tier 2 feat dtatus for sneak attack. I think especially if the class is considered being rebalanced, this should be taken into account. Pointing to -guard as a solution to all the drawbacks is concerning in that light. So hopefully this won't really be the case.
The basis of your argument for the downside to Sneak Attacks is based on aggro from AI. This applies to PvE only, and a minor one at best that can be circumvented by -guard. It does not apply to any of the PvP scenarios and therefore has minimal bearing on mechanical balance.

Again, I'm going to emphasize what will really help the feedback thread here and I suggest you do the same instead of going off tangent:
Kenji wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 3:43 am
Let's keep the posts similar to these posts as they are on topic, relevant, and productive to the matters at hand:
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=39288&start=50#p308307
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=39288&start=50#p308617

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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Hazard » Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:32 pm

On my rogue I've tried dropping grenades, and taking opportunist instead (because of the +4 hide/ms).
My character is stealth focused so it made sense. So far, so good. It's a nice little bump, but I can't help but feel it's a very small bump in exchange for losing a lot of potential utility.

The ab bonus for attacks of opportunity never really comes into play. It's just seems pretty rare that happens.
Would be cool if it instead gave an AB bonus while flanking too... Or an extra sneak attack dice or something. Just something that is more regularly useful.

I like the direction of not being forced to be grenadier-tank. I look forward to whatever is next for rogues.

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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Heroic Spirit » Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:05 am

Kenji wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 5:53 am
[/list]
Buffs:
  • Method: Gruesome Technique's Fear now procs on the following events:
    Trap Triggering (Once every minute)
    Grenade Explosion (Once every minute)
    Killing Blow (Unlimited)
  • Method: Skirmish Maneuvers now does the following for Dirty Fighting
    AB Penalty lowered from 4 to 2 (to 0 for Guerilla Warfare)
    DC increased by 1 (2 for GW)
    Reduces Cooldown from 9 to 7.5 seconds (6 for GW)
Note: Only Vigilantes/Liberators have access to GW
  • Skill Mastery now automatically recycles the Rogue's set traps. The chance for the retrieval is as follows:
    Set Trap + Disarm Trap + d20 (not automatic 20)
    vs.
    Original Set Trap DC + 10
Nerfs:
  • If a character fails the save against a Dirty Fighting technique, it is granted immunity vs. all Dirty Fighting techniques for the next 12 seconds. (Consistent with other combat feats such as Knockdown and Disarm)
Will Gruesome's Killing explosion work on vanilla grenades?

(i hope the below is legible)
Image

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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Tesla420 » Thu Dec 15, 2022 7:03 pm

I know I have mentioned it earlier in the thread, but I'll try to elaborate more. As a rogue who cannot qualify for epic dodge. I would like it if improved sneak attack had a lower requirement. Most people consider it a garbage feat already, but I think it is amazing and would very much like to pick it at earlier levels. A rogues damage still pales in comparison to a weapon master, so why not have the ability to sacrifice utility for more damage?

Some rogue feats that make use of other attributes than dex might be nice. Str/wisdom/int
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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Waldo52 » Thu Dec 15, 2022 10:37 pm

Tesla420 wrote:
Thu Dec 15, 2022 7:03 pm
I know I have mentioned it earlier in the thread, but I'll try to elaborate more. As a rogue who cannot qualify for epic dodge. I would like it if improved sneak attack had a lower requirement. Most people consider it a garbage feat already, but I think it is amazing and would very much like to pick it at earlier levels. A rogues damage still pales in comparison to a weapon master, so why not have the ability to sacrifice utility for more damage?

Some rogue feats that make use of other attributes than dex might be nice. Str/wisdom/int
Lowering the requirement would be helpful considering how crowded our feat economy gets in later levels when we qualify for it. But I think we need more rogue feats in general. improved Sneak Attack is actually a good feat in theory until you realize you can't really build a rogue and have room for it because of feat starvation.

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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Hazard » Thu Dec 15, 2022 11:54 pm

Waldo52 wrote:
Thu Dec 15, 2022 10:37 pm
Tesla420 wrote:
Thu Dec 15, 2022 7:03 pm
I know I have mentioned it earlier in the thread, but I'll try to elaborate more. As a rogue who cannot qualify for epic dodge. I would like it if improved sneak attack had a lower requirement. Most people consider it a garbage feat already, but I think it is amazing and would very much like to pick it at earlier levels. A rogues damage still pales in comparison to a weapon master, so why not have the ability to sacrifice utility for more damage?

Some rogue feats that make use of other attributes than dex might be nice. Str/wisdom/int
Lowering the requirement would be helpful considering how crowded our feat economy gets in later levels when we qualify for it. But I think we need more rogue feats in general. improved Sneak Attack is actually a good feat in theory until you realize you can't really build a rogue and have room for it because of feat starvation.
Strong agree. Deep rogue is so feat starved it's looking at other classes and just seeing plump roast feat dinners.

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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Subtext » Fri Dec 16, 2022 10:06 am

Rogues...or moreso dex melee overall is missing more than a few feats.
The AC advantage certainly isn't as prominent anymore to justify the lack of AB or kill pressure...why would I want to go through the trouble of landing sneaks when I can just as well delete someone outright as a WM.
I still have to take fighter or ranger levels to achieve basic functionality because I lack general/combat feats, don't have discipline and lack APR/AB. I said basic functionality, not optimal performance.

But that's not a rogue specific issue.

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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Dec 16, 2022 9:56 pm

Rogue's epic bonus feats should be every 2 levels like fighter.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Subtext » Fri Dec 16, 2022 10:00 pm

Even that wouldn't really matter because at most you'll ever take 25 rogue levels, anything more and you lose APR or discipline.

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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Dec 16, 2022 10:06 pm

It would give 24th lvl rogue 2 bonus epic feats instead of 1. So you can get the same feats you got earlier but also fit in one more feat with ab, like skirmisher's or signature (or both if you drop grenades or dont need great dex, etc etc). I dont personally think 24th rogue builds need more buff than that. It also, as a side product, helps out suboptimal utility focused rogues who went pure and sacked combat pretty much.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Tesla420 » Fri Dec 16, 2022 10:35 pm

Access to the dual wield / archer path would be an interesting direction also.
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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Subtext » Sat Dec 17, 2022 11:32 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Fri Dec 16, 2022 10:06 pm
It would give 24th lvl rogue 2 bonus epic feats instead of 1. So you can get the same feats you got earlier but also fit in one more feat with ab, like skirmisher's or signature (or both if you drop grenades or dont need great dex, etc etc). I dont personally think 24th rogue builds need more buff than that. It also, as a side product, helps out suboptimal utility focused rogues who went pure and sacked combat pretty much.
The 24/6 Rogue/Fighter setup is probably the setup that needs a buff the least and I generally don't like the idea of buffing specific builds when the general idea of a class is versatility which...would make that even less of a case.

But again. Generally, the major weakness of rogues doesn't stem so much from the class setup itself (Rogue really has some cool stuff) but suffers from being dex focused with dex being in a generally very poor state atm...and being limited to 3/4 BAB and no discipline. With enough fantasy, a caster might get away with the latter (not really), a melee char will definitely not. Other related classes suffer from the very same issue (Shadowdancer, Assassin, Harper Scout, Zhent Operative). I actually think rogue suffers the least from being dex with grenades being a decent tool to branch into.

For comparison: Spellswords for example allow going pure with the extra APR at deep investment and having discipline. Shaman heavily encourages multiclassing with the CL mechanic and even receive full AB when multiclassed to a full AB class. You can very much play them as a respectable martial (with higher AB than the dex focused classes) while having a potent spellbook on top without actually losing out on class features.

The one rogue specific weakness I would name is the feat starvation. No Shield proficiency, no two weapon fighting feats, no ranged feats. Either one of these should be considered baseline (and quite possibly realized via paths).
And in lieu of a bottoms up rework, I will not tire of suggesting giving SD sth like 2/3 grenade scaling (still needing the rogue feat to unlock them first) because that would be a very specific buff to dex SD which is in a much much worse state than Rogue (and funny that it barely gets spoken about)
As well as adding sth like +1 AB, +1 APR at 28 combined levels in the stealthy classes. That too would reduce the need to multiclass to fighter or ranger.
A synergy with Loremasters would be nice on virtue of it being such a nice fit to the thematical tinkerer aspect of rogues (perhaps as a secret that makes LM levels count for synergies)

And as far as Discipline goes...given how utterly essential the skill is for anything PvP, I think that probably just every class should have it as a class skill these days. (Yes, casters too!)

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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by AstralUniverse » Sun Dec 18, 2022 10:26 am

Subtext wrote:
Sat Dec 17, 2022 11:32 am
The 24/6 Rogue/Fighter setup is probably the setup that needs a buff the least and I generally don't like the idea of buffing specific builds when the general idea of a class is versatility which...would make that even less of a case.
I agree with this line.
24/6 is indeed the build that needs the least buffs, because it's the best rogue build. Any more than 25 rogue and you're dropping something essential for combat, while 19 rogue builds can be good but that's less because of rogue investment and more because of the 3rd class in the picture. Hence, we should be balancing around 24/6 as a pillar of reference imo.

That's why the buff I propose only buffs the best build by 'a little', and actually buffs suboptimal builds a lot more. Any buff you give rogue pre-epic will also extend to 24/6 build subsequently but again, those builds enjoy 3 classes while 24/6 is naturally more rogue invested.
Subtext wrote:
Sat Dec 17, 2022 11:32 am
uffers from being dex focused with dex being in a generally very poor state atm
I'd ask you to elaborate on what exactly it is about dex that puts rogue in a bad state. is it too low ac? too low ab? what relation between rogue and dex isnt good enough? Also, giving rogue discipline makes it a very problematic dip (tumble, disc, umd, evasion and uncanny dodge on one dip). That aint happening I'm afraid.

Shaman is a lot more designed FOR multiclassing by the dev's intent. I cannot say the same thing about Rogue with confidence but when I look at rogue builds I see a lot of versatility still. I see verity in levels of investment in particular (builds with 3, 13, 19 and 24 levels). Spellsword... well.. it's a very strong class but it also has much lower ac than rogue, no epic dodge, isnt a stealther with big sneak damage either and has a finite casts of true sight while the rogue can corner again and again. It's hard to compare, and also both of them being 3/4 but have a lot of soft situational ab bonuses from many sources. Spellsword looks like it was not designed to multiclass at all imo. So maybe we should buff spellsword? I'm joking. Just to illustrate that different classes are designed to be... different, and they have different levels of building verity. Rogue seems like it's in a good spot really.
Subtext wrote:
Sat Dec 17, 2022 11:32 am
The one rogue specific weakness I would name is the feat starvation.
So is it feat starvation, being dex based, or both? Anyway, for feats, I think buffing their progression in epics to every 2nd level like fighter should be fine, as I said initially.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Quidix » Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:48 pm

I agree, rogues deserve another 1-2 epic feats.

This is a wider dex problem, dex swash very much need 1 epic feat as well.

One could even consider giving any character with 26 dex free ESF Disc (as everyone takes it), but there may be exception cases which undermine that approach.

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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Kenji » Mon Feb 27, 2023 11:11 am

I promised buffs to Rogue prior but have not delivered. The reason is this:
TL;DR: Rogue is in a good place. It does not need overall buffs with bonus feats but a more surgical examination and adjustment in its features and improving them individually.

Rogue is a high-skill ceiling class. Its potential to be competitive depends more on the player playing the class than the build itself.

One can build a Rogue like a toe-to-toe frontline warrior: focusing on raw AB, AC, crit, and damage output. That approach can be solid and viable but not as good as other classes (fighter, ranger, and barbarian) designed to be built that way. Rogues begin to shine (perhaps in an unfair way) when the player utilizes gameplay mechanics and their given tools like poison/venom, traps, grenades, and corner-sneak to further improve their damage potential, utility, and versatility in both scenes of PvE and PvP.

The design of Rogue isn't solely based on raw fundamental mechanics that is AB, AC, and damage potential. That makes it harder to gauge where Rogue is compared to the rest of the meta, as it may require qualitative user feedback than calculations on paper. This is also where I recognize that the team and I will have to take user feedback with more circumspection.

Here is what will help:
Provide very specific PvP or PvE encounters you have, both as an opponent to or the player of a Rogue. Feel free to send me a private message here, on Discord, or post in public. (Please expunge any IC names, but only focus on the mechanics and the recollection of the combat or mechanical interaction) I ask that everyone reading this recognize user experience may vary and opinions may be subjective, but paper calculations will not suffice for a class such as Rogue.

Also, to finish this address:

Kenji wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:25 am

Roguish PrCs
For the purpose of discussion, these classes are considered the Roguish PrCs as they share a certain amount of synergies with Rogue:

  • Invisible Blade

  • Shadow Dancer

  • Assassin

  • Vigilante

  • Liberator

Shaman and Cleric Seeker are excluded from the list as they are caster-based rather than mundane or martial.

Rogue is a base class with foundational baseline features. The Roguish PrCs shall selectively improve, specialize, and/or grant limited access to those baseline Rogue features while potentially introducing more features pertinent to the PrC's theme.

Consider that to be the mission statement, design doctrine, design philosophy, whatever nomenclature that is, for future adjustments, designs, rework, redux, and/or overhaul pertaining to Rogue and Roguish PrCs. Note that any class can build into Roguish PrCs and Rogues are not the ones with exclusive access to them.

Vigilante specializes in improving the raw fundamental mechanics for Rogues, which is the AB aspect of things (full BAB, various ways to improve AB), while also granting (somewhat limited) access to Grenades. Liberator is then simply the Divine variant of Vigilante, introducing what Rogue does not have - access to Divine Might/Shield.

These Roguish PrCs are meant to improve certain aspects of Rogue while giving up progression on the rest of the Rogue features, at least that will likely be the approach going forward. With this design doctrine, the team has a clearer objective when looking at reworking the existing Roguish PrCs.


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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Oridnia_Lives » Tue Feb 28, 2023 12:25 am

https://youtu.be/e5SlgQODHqc

Trapper video! I'm almost done with my second one, this is the first. This was before the traps started being reusable, thanks for that :)


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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Nobs » Tue Feb 28, 2023 8:29 am

Would be nice if you could set up a few traps before breaking stealth


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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Waldo52 » Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:10 pm

Kenji wrote:
Mon Feb 27, 2023 11:11 am

I promised buffs to Rogue prior but have not delivered. The reason is this:
TL;DR: Rogue is in a good place. It does not need overall buffs with bonus feats but a more surgical examination and adjustment in its features and improving them individually.

Rogue is a high-skill ceiling class. Its potential to be competitive depends more on the player playing the class than the build itself.

One can build a Rogue like a toe-to-toe frontline warrior: focusing on raw AB, AC, crit, and damage output. That approach can be solid and viable but not as good as other classes (fighter, ranger, and barbarian) designed to be built that way. Rogues begin to shine (perhaps in an unfair way) when the player utilizes gameplay mechanics and their given tools like poison/venom, traps, grenades, and corner-sneak to further improve their damage potential, utility, and versatility in both scenes of PvE and PvP.

The design of Rogue isn't solely based on raw fundamental mechanics that is AB, AC, and damage potential. That makes it harder to gauge where Rogue is compared to the rest of the meta, as it may require qualitative user feedback than calculations on paper. This is also where I recognize that the team and I will have to take user feedback with more circumspection.

Here is what will help:
Provide very specific PvP or PvE encounters you have, both as an opponent to or the player of a Rogue. Feel free to send me a private message here, on Discord, or post in public. (Please expunge any IC names, but only focus on the mechanics and the recollection of the combat or mechanical interaction) I ask that everyone reading this recognize user experience may vary and opinions may be subjective, but paper calculations will not suffice for a class such as Rogue.

Also, to finish this address:

Kenji wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:25 am

Roguish PrCs
For the purpose of discussion, these classes are considered the Roguish PrCs as they share a certain amount of synergies with Rogue:

  • Invisible Blade

  • Shadow Dancer

  • Assassin

  • Vigilante

  • Liberator

Shaman and Cleric Seeker are excluded from the list as they are caster-based rather than mundane or martial.

Rogue is a base class with foundational baseline features. The Roguish PrCs shall selectively improve, specialize, and/or grant limited access to those baseline Rogue features while potentially introducing more features pertinent to the PrC's theme.

Consider that to be the mission statement, design doctrine, design philosophy, whatever nomenclature that is, for future adjustments, designs, rework, redux, and/or overhaul pertaining to Rogue and Roguish PrCs. Note that any class can build into Roguish PrCs and Rogues are not the ones with exclusive access to them.

Vigilante specializes in improving the raw fundamental mechanics for Rogues, which is the AB aspect of things (full BAB, various ways to improve AB), while also granting (somewhat limited) access to Grenades. Liberator is then simply the Divine variant of Vigilante, introducing what Rogue does not have - access to Divine Might/Shield.

These Roguish PrCs are meant to improve certain aspects of Rogue while giving up progression on the rest of the Rogue features, at least that will likely be the approach going forward. With this design doctrine, the team has a clearer objective when looking at reworking the existing Roguish PrCs.

One thing that would be extremely helpful in all of this would be having all the new feats compiled somewhere in their most up to date form. It's not all there on the wiki and I think the in game descriptions have some omissions.

For example I remember reading in the updates that one of the feats now causes fear on springing a trap, but this is nowhere on the wiki or in game as far as I can tell.

I'd be happy to test some of these new capabilities and provide feedback, but I need to know what I'm dealing with.


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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by MRFTW » Wed Mar 01, 2023 8:08 pm

Why play a rogue when you can faceroll on a FTR WM Vigi? 8-)
(Ftr 6 / WM 5 / Vigilante 19, Cause of Vigilance)

I feel like both rogue and monk have lost a lot of identity due to the roguish PRCs. The main drawback to the above build compared to, say, Rogue 24/ FTR 6 is that it doesn't get a +5, which is a noticeable price to pay but I think that's the only really impactful one. Rogue always had the niche that they were a premier side-attacker, but I think that today, they're outperformed in almost every way by FTR / WM / Vigi or FTR / Cav / BG (trades sneaking for a +6 and a cool horse, highly recommend).

The PRCs themselves are fantastic, but I think a serious look needs to be taken at Vigilante. They get a ludicrous amount of stuff for a full BAB class:

Full BAB
High ref/will
Full rogue skillset + 8/level skillpoints
Cause of Vigilance is Rogue 2.0
Cause of Freedom is Monk 2.0
Anti-disarm built-in
Random WIS synergies??
The list goes on but my post doesn't

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Edit:

Waldo52 wrote:
Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:10 pm

For example I remember reading in the updates that one of the feats now causes fear on springing a trap, but this is nowhere on the wiki or in game as far as I can tell.

https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Liberator#Arelith_Changes has the mechanics for the bonus feats, the Vigilante and Rogue pages are a bit more vague.


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Mattamue
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Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Mattamue » Thu Mar 02, 2023 12:02 am

MRFTW wrote:
Wed Mar 01, 2023 8:08 pm
Waldo52 wrote:
Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:10 pm

For example I remember reading in the updates that one of the feats now causes fear on springing a trap, but this is nowhere on the wiki or in game as far as I can tell.

https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Liberator#Arelith_Changes has the mechanics for the bonus feats, the Vigilante and Rogue pages are a bit more vague.

https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Improved_Method:_Nightmare_Tactics wrote:

Specifics: Fear nearby enemies in a medium area of effect of 3.33 meters radius on beathblow, trap triggering, or grenade explosion

That's transcluded to both the Vigilante and Liberator pages.

Rogue doesn't get improved methods.

Who is the audience for this post?


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Waldo52
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Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:09 pm

Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Waldo52 » Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:23 pm

Mattamue wrote:
Thu Mar 02, 2023 12:02 am
MRFTW wrote:
Wed Mar 01, 2023 8:08 pm
Waldo52 wrote:
Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:10 pm

For example I remember reading in the updates that one of the feats now causes fear on springing a trap, but this is nowhere on the wiki or in game as far as I can tell.

https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Liberator#Arelith_Changes has the mechanics for the bonus feats, the Vigilante and Rogue pages are a bit more vague.

https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Improved_Method:_Nightmare_Tactics wrote:

Specifics: Fear nearby enemies in a medium area of effect of 3.33 meters radius on beathblow, trap triggering, or grenade explosion

That's transcluded to both the Vigilante and Liberator pages.

Rogue doesn't get improved methods.

My mistake. :o


Oridnia_Lives
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:19 pm

Re: Rogue Redux Feedback

Post by Oridnia_Lives » Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:52 pm

Oridnia_Lives wrote:
Tue Feb 28, 2023 12:25 am

https://youtu.be/e5SlgQODHqc

Trapper video! I'm almost done with my second one, this is the first. This was before the traps started being reusable, thanks for that :)

My next Trapper video is shorter and sweeter! Barbarian Brouhaha!

https://youtu.be/IbAKAp9oPVw

I tried making a true trap focused rogue before in regular NWN but it never really worked. Appreciate the changes that make this tropey playstyle something that can work on Arelith, if just barely. But then again some might say the "barely" is part of trope. :geek:


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