Rogue Redux Feedback

[Waldo52]

It's been a long time since Kenji's rogue update, which was honestly a godsend. The class was in a really bad condition and we really needed something. But after many months of playing rogues, I've come to the conclusion that the rogue is still decidedly weaker than almost any other class in terms of deep investment.

Before Rogue Redux, rogues were fine for perhaps 5% of the player populace where their understanding of the mechanics and build knowledge allowed for a dedicated rogue to remain competitive in PvP. The rogue buffs, while catering to the remaining players who may not be at the 5% top player skill/knowledge level, also meant that 5% of the rogue players now play nigh-unkillable rogues in very disproportionally outmatched scenarios given any other builds/classes.

This is not to bash those who aren't capable of utilizing Rogue to its fullest potential in terms of mechanics, because I certainly can't do so myself. Since the rogue buffs, however, I have witnessed firsthand as well as heard about 3 separate occasions where a master rogue player would outplay multiple opponents or solo contents not meant for 1 character with very precise timing and effort.

But that's okay because that is the intended design for Rogues. Where both the skill floor and ceiling are elevated, the rest of the more casual rogue players (myself included) can enjoy rogues for what they are in a story-telling and roleplaying capacity. Those highly skilled rogue players, you know who you are, be more subtle about it, or don't, enjoy it while it lasts.

Should the team buff Rogue any further? No.
Should the team nerf Rogue? The short answer is also no, not now;
I will say, though: in time, as the players become more experienced in PvP, rogues may need adjustments to lower their potential. Unless everything else power creeps, which then also raises the bar. We'll see in time.

When will any of that happen? I don't know, just not anytime Soon™.

Rogue 30 is not useful

Pure class anything is not gonna happen under my designs, focus your energy elsewhere.

Interesting. Even pre-update there were always these few elite rogue players who would chime in on the forums stating that rogue was in a fine place, that it was easy to solo dungeons as a rogue, etc. It was almost hard for me to believe them. I still hear things to the tune of "I can't even play rogues, they're too weak" from players all the time.

It's probably the case that I'm just not an elite player and the class has an extremely steep learning curve. I don't care that much is if I suck, it's a video game and I'm enjoying myself which is the most important thing.

I thought I'd see more people agreeing with me but if the rogue is in fact working quite well right now that's a good thing to know too.

[Hazard]

Before Rogue Redux, rogues were fine for perhaps 5% of the player populace where their understanding of the mechanics and build knowledge allowed for a dedicated rogue to remain competitive in PvP. The rogue buffs, while catering to the remaining players who may not be at the 5% top player skill/knowledge level, also meant that 5% of the rogue players now play nigh-unkillable rogues in very disproportionally outmatched scenarios given any other builds/classes.

This is not to bash those who aren't capable of utilizing Rogue to its fullest potential in terms of mechanics, because I certainly can't do so myself. Since the rogue buffs, however, I have witnessed firsthand as well as heard about 3 separate occasions where a master rogue player would outplay multiple opponents or solo contents not meant for 1 character with very precise timing and effort.

But that's okay because that is the intended design for Rogues. Where both the skill floor and ceiling are elevated, the rest of the more casual rogue players (myself included) can enjoy rogues for what they are in a story-telling and roleplaying capacity. Those highly skilled rogue players, you know who you are, be more subtle about it, or don't, enjoy it while it lasts.

Should the team buff Rogue any further? No.
Should the team nerf Rogue? The short answer is also no, not now;
I will say, though: in time, as the players become more experienced in PvP, rogues may need adjustments to lower their potential. Unless everything else power creeps, which then also raises the bar. We'll see in time.

When will any of that happen? I don't know, just not anytime Soon™.

Pure class anything is not gonna happen under my designs, focus your energy elsewhere.

Interesting. Even pre-update there were always these few elite rogue players who would chime in on the forums stating that rogue was in a fine place, that it was easy to solo dungeons as a rogue, etc. It was almost hard for me to believe them. I still hear things to the tune of "I can't even play rogues, they're too weak" from players all the time.

It's probably the case that I'm just not an elite player and the class has an extremely steep learning curve. I don't care that much is if I suck, it's a video game and I'm enjoying myself which is the most important thing.

I thought I'd see more people agreeing with me but if the rogue is in fact working quite well right now that's a good thing to know too.

I agree with you, Waldo.

Also you really screwed up that quoting, so I'm gonna make fun of you. Ha-ha.

[Waldo52]

Interesting. Even pre-update there were always these few elite rogue players who would chime in on the forums stating that rogue was in a fine place, that it was easy to solo dungeons as a rogue, etc. It was almost hard for me to believe them. I still hear things to the tune of "I can't even play rogues, they're too weak" from players all the time.

It's probably the case that I'm just not an elite player and the class has an extremely steep learning curve. I don't care that much is if I suck, it's a video game and I'm enjoying myself which is the most important thing.

I thought I'd see more people agreeing with me but if the rogue is in fact working quite well right now that's a good thing to know too.

I agree with you, Waldo.

Also you really screwed up that quoting, so I'm gonna make fun of you. Ha-ha.

If you agree then post your thoughts. This is a DISCUSSION forum you insolent churl.

I mean... Thank you for the support.

[Hazard]

I agree with you, Waldo.

Also you really screwed up that quoting, so I'm gonna make fun of you. Ha-ha.

If you agree then post your thoughts. This is a DISCUSSION forum you insolent churl.

I mean... Thank you for the support.

yeahbut lazy.

cbf.

my thoughts: deep rogue is suck. Kenji, buff pls 4 deep rogue. i want.

[Kenji]

Hmm, maybe allow deep rogues to access improved methods, now that’s an idea.

Consequently, also allow Vigilante/Liberators to get access to improved methods at 6 instead of 11. This way rogue Vigilantes have better synergies, we’ll see.

[Ordo.Lupus]

Hmm, maybe allow deep rogues to access improved methods, now that’s an idea.

Consequently, also allow Vigilante/Liberators to get access to improved methods at 6 instead of 11. This way rogue Vigilantes have better synergies, we’ll see.

+1 on allowing rogue bonus feat to access Improved Methods. Feels a bit weird that only Vigi/Libs are granted these. Locking them behind a level requirement like Defensive Roll or imp. Evasion is probably fine.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Hmm, maybe allow deep rogues to access improved methods, now that’s an idea.

Consequently, also allow Vigilante/Liberators to get access to improved methods at 6 instead of 11. This way rogue Vigilantes have better synergies, we’ll see.

more synergy is good, but i think you also need to make it so they don't go with weaponsmaster in some way or another.

[WanderingPoet]

Before Rogue Redux, rogues were fine for perhaps 5% of the player populace where their understanding of the mechanics and build knowledge allowed for a dedicated rogue to remain competitive in PvP. The rogue buffs, while catering to the remaining players who may not be at the 5% top player skill/knowledge level, also meant that 5% of the rogue players now play nigh-unkillable rogues in very disproportionally outmatched scenarios given any other builds/classes.

This is not to bash those who aren't capable of utilizing Rogue to its fullest potential in terms of mechanics, because I certainly can't do so myself. Since the rogue buffs, however, I have witnessed firsthand as well as heard about 3 separate occasions where a master rogue player would outplay multiple opponents or solo contents not meant for 1 character with very precise timing and effort.

I find this really interesting. High levels of rogues can't be that common can they? I've played one myself, but I can't say I've seen more than a half a dozen in the last few years. I've also never heard of a rogue player being a nigh-unkillable rogue (though there was a really strong divine rogue pixie a few years back, that was more the divine than the rogue).

I'm curious how this 5% rogue made nigh-unkillable rogues with a -heavy investment- in rogue. Shadowdancer is raw better than rogue; and far more defensive. Assassin is raw better than rogue; and far more offensive. Vigilante is raw better than rogue; and far more offensive. Sure, rogue is typically needed in many builds for UMD/evasion/tumble, or for the prereqs for SD/Assassin; but how many actually go to 24 rogue?

Were they fighting undead? The Exploding Holy Flask is amazingly good against undead, and yes rogues can solo any undead dungeon with ease. But that only needs 14 levels, and since you need 13 for epic dodge, I wouldn't consider that 'heavy rogue'.

Most of the rest of the grenades are rubbish:
Smoke screen: Decent early when you don't have imp invis, not really useful in PVP though.
Dust of Silence: Useful if you know you are going up against a listen build.
Disjunction shard: Raw worse than just using nature's balance from a book or greater spell breach, since it also breaches your own buffs and your allies. Can be useful if you get it off in surprise and hit a group of enemies.
Mirror Dust: Actually pretty good since it's like an unremovable imp invis and expertise mixed into one... But also effects you, so more of a defensive tool.
Beholder Dust: Being at the rogues location makes this very skill oriented to use, if you can drop it onto the spellcasters that you're standing next to. But a restoration removes it so it's not very dangerous.
Caltrops: Probably the worst of the grenades simply for the fact that it persists and you can't even run over to attack the enemy while they're vulnerable for that one round.
Flashbang: This is definitely a skill use one, as it can also stun you and get you killed. Also hard to capitalize on it when it lasts only one round every three rounds and you can't use it in melee.

Choking Powder: The actual best grenade, as it lets you sneak attack without hurting yourself, if you have immunity to poison. Used to be you could get a poison immunity belt, until the belt was nerfed. But now duergar/imp/hags/yuan-ti are the best rogues by a good mileage.
Fire Bomb: Decent damage, but just stick to acid bombs since they also slow, or gonnes if you want damage.
Acid Bomb: Great for slowing, but beaten by Freedom of Movement. Not hard to beat and does so little damage on it's own you could just stick to gonnes.

I suppose caltrops/flashbang are far more useful if you're a ranged rogue using a bow, then you can capitalize on the sneak attacks far more easily. However, they're still immune for 3 rounds, and in the case of flash bang it's not hard to get mind immunity to ignore it. If you're heavily corner sneaking to basically disappear for 3 rounds, pop from stealth to get a few sneaks then toss your flashbang then you could be nigh unkillable in a 1vs1? With traps you could do massive damage during those sneaking rounds by laying a field of doom as well.

But again, none of these rely on the rogue's toolkit, that you can't get as a vigilante, assassin or shadowdancer and do better. So how does a rogue become a nigh unkillable rogue in very disproportionally outmatched scenarios given any other builds/classes. The 3 dip of rogue is very needed to get lightly armoured/specialty weapon/blinding speed buffs, but otherwise what does rogue have past 15 that makes it better than the others at well, anything?

[Waldo52]

@Wandering Poet

I disagree with much of what you're saying. Some of this is in fact dated information. For example, Yuan Ti no longer capitalize on poison immunity for lobbing choking poweder because all rogues are now immune to their own choking powder.
I do agree with shadowdancers and assassins seeming better than rogues, although some elite rogue players may disagree.

@Kenji

Rogues being access to improved methods seems only fair. Especially if the implementation of complex experimental device changes to GRENADE USE LEVEL = CHARACTER LEVEL. I just looked at it again and it's actually VIGILANTE LEVEL = ROGUE LEVEL, which for us would translate into ROGUE LEVEL = ROGUE LEVEL, which would clearly be useless.

IMHO improved methods and one extra feat to incorporate them onto existing builds would ve a sweet spot for making the class more fun whilst not rocking the boat too hard.

[Kenji]

Given recent feedback on Rogues, the following changes will be the last adjustment for a long while:

Rogue 23+ gains access to the following improved methods:

1. Nightmare Tactics
2. Guerilla Warfare
3. Complex Experimental Device (only useful if dipped Vigilante or Liberator)

[WanderingPoet]

@Wandering Poet

I disagree with much of what you're saying. Some of this is in fact dated information. For example, Yuan Ti no longer capitalize on poison immunity for lobbing choking poweder because all rogues are now immune to their own choking powder.
I do agree with shadowdancers and assassins seeming better than rogues, although some elite rogue players may disagree.

@Kenji

Rogues being access to improved methods seems only fair. Especially if the implementation of complex experimental device changes to GRENADE USE LEVEL = CHARACTER LEVEL. I just looked at it again and it's actually VIGILANTE LEVEL = ROGUE LEVEL, which for us would translate into ROGUE LEVEL = ROGUE LEVEL, which would clearly be useless.

IMHO improved methods and one extra feat to incorporate them onto existing builds would ve a sweet spot for making the class more fun whilst not rocking the boat too hard.

I'm not saying you're -wrong- but no where on the rogue page or on Method: Simple Experimental Device does it say rogues are immune to their own choking powder. If that's true, that's a great change though! Maybe the wiki is out of date, but I can only speak from and work with what's on it; if you feel the info is out of date could you suggest to the wiki team what needs changing?

That change alone significantly increases the power of rogues in conjunction with grenades ignoring spellcraft though, since it's not too hard for a heavy rogue to get DCs in the low 30s.

Rogues getting access to Nightmare Tactics and Guerilla warfare will be pretty great.

[Ordo.Lupus]

Wiki page for rogues is slightly outdated or incomplete or suffers from discrepancy. However in one of the Announcements during the Method reworks it is stated that characters with 2/3 of their levels in Rogue get immunity to their own choking powder grenade (albeit I assume this basicly just means 20 rogue).

If you're doing Gruesome technique/Nightmare tactics using the vanilla grenades then the only two I think are viable are thunderstone and acid bomb. The thunderstone has the +4 DC vs fear while the latter actually has a lingering AoE unlike its fire bomb counterpart which only has the vfx.
Many of the rogue-only grenades are les useful since they often affect yourself as well. Mirror dust giving yourself a lingering AB debuff and miss chance just makes me question - WHY? If they were throwable but with a very short range I would consider them much more viable

[Subtext]

Mirror Dust has two very useful applications.

1) Escape. If folks after you have a harder time to hit you, it's easier to get away.

2) Group fights. If setup correctly, you can debuff the enemy party. Say, sneak into their cluster, drop the dust and get out.
Yes, it will hit you too but as long as you get more martial folks in the other side, that's a massive advantage for yours.