Temp shops just arn't long enough.

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JustMonika
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Temp shops just arn't long enough.

Post by JustMonika » Sat Nov 19, 2022 8:58 am

I find four hours is just long enough for me to forget about them and let them go up for sale, but not long enough to be around for people to come buy things.

It's not helped by the face the announcement on entering the server is 'You've got less than 24 hours on your rental', which I knew, because it's always less than 24 hours...

Could we think about extending the timer on these to something more substantial? We've not exactly got a shortage of unowned ones, and it would be an effortlessly easy change to roll back if causes problems.

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Re: Temp shops just arn't long enough.

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:27 am

I thought it was 3 hours and that seemed long enough, to me. 3 hours is enough time to go to a dungeon and come back. It's enough time to go to a meeting and come back. It is not enough time to treat it as a perma shop and just forget about it. you're meant to actively RP the stall. It's not meant to give you a semi-perma shop.
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Re: Temp shops just arn't long enough.

Post by niar3tir » Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:55 am

It's not meant to give you a semi-perma shop.
Only trouble is for those few shops in prime locations that could be hogged and used as that.

Otherwise there's too many temporary stalls not being used/ being left empty and just used as weird advertisement signs for other shops; a short timer only "hurts" the few people actually trying to sell items, and even if it was extended to a one day lease it wouldn't be like a permanent shop.
But it would give people the opportunity to come back and empty their stall instead of losing everything -been there, done that. Once it was my mistake, just forgot, but other times I had to leave only to return hours later.

Right now I think the trouble is mostly in Guldorand, with so many empty stalls. But if other temp shops were added to various settlements more time would be useful to all *hint hint nudge nudge*

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Re: Temp shops just arn't long enough.

Post by Edens_Fall » Sat Nov 19, 2022 2:28 pm

As it use to be 1 hour, the new length seems fine to me. Plus temp shops are just that, temp. Having them too long just encourages people to use them as regular shops rather then sitting with their wares to attract customers and RP.

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Re: Temp shops just arn't long enough.

Post by Mattamue » Sat Nov 19, 2022 2:38 pm

First thing that comes to mind for me is that the skal shops are already overtaken and owned by the same character for longer than 3 hours. Long hours would be okay as long as the same seller wasn't able to re-buy the shop at the end of the time.

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Re: Temp shops just arn't long enough.

Post by Definately Not A Mimic » Sat Nov 19, 2022 3:50 pm

Personally think making the time even longer would lead to problems. If the idea is considered then I agree with the above, make it so you can't refresh or rebuy the same temp stall.

Want your timer to run 5-10 hours, ok, but it's from the time you rent, no refresh, and you can't re-rent that same stall for X amount of hours/days.

As it was said before, they are temporary, not somewhere for someone who has the time to log in every so many hours and extend it to have a fake permanent shop.

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Re: Temp shops just arn't long enough.

Post by JustMonika » Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:28 pm

So far, the objections I'm hearing are,

'You shouldn't have fun merchanting. Participate in the shop bidding system and hope to join the privilaged few.'

While I agree on Skal the temp shops are often (but not always) in use, that's more of the case that Skal has just two temp shops, as opposed to Guldorand's... 6? Eight? Despite Skal maintaining something like 4 times the population of Guldorand.

If Skal had a proportational number of stalls to it's population, this wouldn't be a problem.

Do you all really /want/ to see more empty temporary stalls? As I've noted above, I've seen more recently that are just signs to non temporary shops. If someone logs in every eight hours to claim the same temp stall because they have stuff to sell... Isn't that good? Everyone now has more things to buy?

It's only a problem if we run out of temp stalls, which isn't currently an issue (except on Skal) and if it became an issue, you could just roll back the change.

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Re: Temp shops just arn't long enough.

Post by Mattamue » Sat Nov 19, 2022 11:58 pm

JustMonika wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:28 pm
Do you all really /want/ to see more empty temporary stalls?
No, I just don't want to see temp shops turned into permanent shops. Adding more time to the temp shop timer would allow easier lock-down. Agreed add more stalls to Skal. Add more shops to more populated areas. Seems like the temp shop just outside the Cordor gate can get locked down too.

In fact, forget temp shops. Have an auction house that anyone can load items into and then stalls aren't an issue. I assume pre-ee and pre-databases that shops had to be tied to some insane in-game vendor store and used module chests for persistence or something crazy. Maybe that's why the stalls are so ubiquitous. There are databases now.

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Re: Temp shops just arn't long enough.

Post by serono » Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:02 am

The shops at prim locations are usually in-use and without the owner in-sight which removes the interactive part of the temporary stalls. Personally I find three hours too long already for these places. Examples: Cordor Outskirts, (Andunor, I dont play in the UD but I assume its the same there)

In other locations these temporary stalls are largely underused since well, theres not alot of traffic. Examples: Guldorand, Sibayad, Westcliff.

Some temporary stalls seem to be designed for the use during events only. Example: Festival grounds

So isnt the real problem the playerbase distribution? Or maybe the players being lazy and not looking for the good deals?
If someone logs in every eight hours to claim the same temp stall because they have stuff to sell... Isn't that good? Everyone now has more things to buy?
I dont think that is good. To expect players to log in every eight hours just to refresh feels like a flawed design choice to me.
You'd allow players to have a secondary shop. (and nothing stops perm owners to have one)
'You shouldn't have fun merchanting. Participate in the shop bidding system and hope to join the privilaged few.'
Granted with a perm. shop its much easier but you can totally participate without a permanent or temporary shop. Sell your wares to shopowners, co-stock a perm. shop, join a merchants guild, etc.
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Re: Temp shops just arn't long enough.

Post by Kuma » Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:45 am

JustMonika wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:28 pm
If someone logs in every eight hours to claim the same temp stall because they have stuff to sell... Isn't that good? Everyone now has more things to buy?
In my view, temporary stalls are supposed to be manned. That is to say, you the shop proprietor are encouraged to actually man the stall. It's just for convenience's sake that it's part of the mechanical shop system.

They aren't meant to be "oh i can't get a permanent shop so i may as well get a temp since i can log in all the time" - they're meant to allow many and varied characters to have a shot at using the system that otherwise can't at that moment.

I know that isn't quite how they are used - see the fact the timers were increased to a few hours not just one. But the fact most of them are fashioned as stalls or kiosks that can be manned, and not just boxes, infers that this is their sort of intended use.

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Re: Temp shops just arn't long enough.

Post by Shadowy Reality » Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:07 am

I will add that Shadovar temporary stalls are on a 24h for some reason IIRC. I also don't like the 3h stalls, I feel like I am bound to them, someone suddenly has an idea to extend a trip somewhere? Can't go. Awesome RP explodes and it's going to last? Can't stay.

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Re: Temp shops just arn't long enough.

Post by JustMonika » Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:25 am

Kuma wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:45 am
JustMonika wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:28 pm
If someone logs in every eight hours to claim the same temp stall because they have stuff to sell... Isn't that good? Everyone now has more things to buy?
In my view, temporary stalls are supposed to be manned. That is to say, you the shop proprietor are encouraged to actually man the stall. It's just for convenience's sake that it's part of the mechanical shop system.

They aren't meant to be "oh i can't get a permanent shop so i may as well get a temp since i can log in all the time" - they're meant to allow many and varied characters to have a shot at using the system that otherwise can't at that moment.

I know that isn't quite how they are used - see the fact the timers were increased to a few hours not just one. But the fact most of them are fashioned as stalls or kiosks that can be manned, and not just boxes, infers that this is their sort of intended use.

Manning a shop isn't fun.

Sure, it'd be fun if you had reliable customers you could interact with. But the vast majority of shops are in places where 'Manning' a shop, consists of standing around alt tabbing while desperately waiting for a passer by. There are a handful of locations this isn't the cast, primarily Skal, the one right outside the gates of Cordor, and those in the center of the hub in the underdark (Though those often are little fun to man, trust me I've tried).

You're not expected to 'man' a perm shop. Why should temp shops be any different?

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Re: Temp shops just arn't long enough.

Post by LichBait » Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:15 pm

A lot of temporary shops could be in better foot traffic locations. The ones that are the best to man and interact with people are in the traffic centers of a city.

Skaljard Village's Square
Andunor's Hub
Cordor's Frontier
Sibayad's Market
Guldorand's Gate Entryway

These are a few examples of some with better foot traffic. The duration is fine on them, perhaps even a hint too generous.

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Re: Temp shops just arn't long enough.

Post by Arienette » Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:26 pm

I am always shocked when I see people advocating for an auction house type system on Arelith.

Running permanent shops can, should, and does create cooperative RP among PCs. Why on earth would anyone want to replace that with some sort of automated auction system?

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Re: Temp shops just arn't long enough.

Post by ElvenEdibles » Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:41 pm

Manning a temp stall is what you do when you want to put NWN in window mode on your second monitor and play another game or watch a movie on your primary.

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Re: Temp shops just arn't long enough.

Post by MalKalz » Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:12 am

Shadowy Reality wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:07 am
I will add that Shadovar temporary stalls are on a 24h for some reason IIRC. I also don't like the 3h stalls, I feel like I am bound to them, someone suddenly has an idea to extend a trip somewhere? Can't go. Awesome RP explodes and it's going to last? Can't stay.
Which stalls? What area?

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Re: Temp shops just arn't long enough.

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:12 am

JustMonika wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:25 am
Kuma wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:45 am
JustMonika wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:28 pm
If someone logs in every eight hours to claim the same temp stall because they have stuff to sell... Isn't that good? Everyone now has more things to buy?
In my view, temporary stalls are supposed to be manned. That is to say, you the shop proprietor are encouraged to actually man the stall. It's just for convenience's sake that it's part of the mechanical shop system.

They aren't meant to be "oh i can't get a permanent shop so i may as well get a temp since i can log in all the time" - they're meant to allow many and varied characters to have a shot at using the system that otherwise can't at that moment.

I know that isn't quite how they are used - see the fact the timers were increased to a few hours not just one. But the fact most of them are fashioned as stalls or kiosks that can be manned, and not just boxes, infers that this is their sort of intended use.

Manning a shop isn't fun.

Sure, it'd be fun if you had reliable customers you could interact with. But the vast majority of shops are in places where 'Manning' a shop, consists of standing around alt tabbing while desperately waiting for a passer by. There are a handful of locations this isn't the cast, primarily Skal, the one right outside the gates of Cordor, and those in the center of the hub in the underdark (Though those often are little fun to man, trust me I've tried).

You're not expected to 'man' a perm shop. Why should temp shops be any different?
The irony here is that temp stalls sell better when you aren't there. People who stop by when you are standing behind the stall feel pressure to buy something, and often just won't stop as a result.

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Re: Temp shops just arn't long enough.

Post by Svrtr » Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:25 am

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:12 am
JustMonika wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:25 am
Kuma wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:45 am


In my view, temporary stalls are supposed to be manned. That is to say, you the shop proprietor are encouraged to actually man the stall. It's just for convenience's sake that it's part of the mechanical shop system.

They aren't meant to be "oh i can't get a permanent shop so i may as well get a temp since i can log in all the time" - they're meant to allow many and varied characters to have a shot at using the system that otherwise can't at that moment.

I know that isn't quite how they are used - see the fact the timers were increased to a few hours not just one. But the fact most of them are fashioned as stalls or kiosks that can be manned, and not just boxes, infers that this is their sort of intended use.

Manning a shop isn't fun.

Sure, it'd be fun if you had reliable customers you could interact with. But the vast majority of shops are in places where 'Manning' a shop, consists of standing around alt tabbing while desperately waiting for a passer by. There are a handful of locations this isn't the cast, primarily Skal, the one right outside the gates of Cordor, and those in the center of the hub in the underdark (Though those often are little fun to man, trust me I've tried).

You're not expected to 'man' a perm shop. Why should temp shops be any different?
The irony here is that temp stalls sell better when you aren't there. People who stop by when you are standing behind the stall feel pressure to buy something, and often just won't stop as a result.
This seems immensely anecdotal and bereft of ways to prove it, so Ill answer an anecdote with an anecdote.

If someone does immensely impressive merchant RP and also haggles? Hell I love it and would be more likely to purchase stuff from them just off of principle, since temp shops are meant to be a locus of such RP and so rewarding it as such seems conducive to their intention. If you're leaving and not buying because someone is their that seems counter-intuitive to the point of merchant RP, or RP as a whole

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Re: Temp shops just arn't long enough.

Post by JustMonika » Mon Nov 21, 2022 1:27 pm

Spyre wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:12 am
Shadowy Reality wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:07 am
I will add that Shadovar temporary stalls are on a 24h for some reason IIRC. I also don't like the 3h stalls, I feel like I am bound to them, someone suddenly has an idea to extend a trip somewhere? Can't go. Awesome RP explodes and it's going to last? Can't stay.
Which stalls? What area?

Nevermind. I found it and fixed it for next reset.
The irony.

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Re: Temp shops just arn't long enough.

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Mon Nov 21, 2022 7:55 pm

Svrtr wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:25 am
Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:12 am
JustMonika wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:25 am



Manning a shop isn't fun.

Sure, it'd be fun if you had reliable customers you could interact with. But the vast majority of shops are in places where 'Manning' a shop, consists of standing around alt tabbing while desperately waiting for a passer by. There are a handful of locations this isn't the cast, primarily Skal, the one right outside the gates of Cordor, and those in the center of the hub in the underdark (Though those often are little fun to man, trust me I've tried).

You're not expected to 'man' a perm shop. Why should temp shops be any different?
The irony here is that temp stalls sell better when you aren't there. People who stop by when you are standing behind the stall feel pressure to buy something, and often just won't stop as a result.
This seems immensely anecdotal and bereft of ways to prove it, so Ill answer an anecdote with an anecdote.

If someone does immensely impressive merchant RP and also haggles? Hell I love it and would be more likely to purchase stuff from them just off of principle, since temp shops are meant to be a locus of such RP and so rewarding it as such seems conducive to their intention. If you're leaving and not buying because someone is their that seems counter-intuitive to the point of merchant RP, or RP as a whole
Two things.

One, of course its technically anecdotal, 99% of forum posts are anecdotal.

Two, it is far from bereft of ways to prove it.

I have spent well over 100 hours owning a temp shop over the five years or so since I started playing here and have approached it from every angle possible. I have sat behind the shop, I have gone off adventuring or resource gathering while my shop sits there, and I have watched the shop activity from a distance. But those three things only tell part of the story, because it doesn't get into the type of people who most often buy from temporary shops (and shops in general). It's usually not the most social of players, as they tend to have access to just about everything through their friends, which leaves folks with a smaller collection of friends and the loners. These types of players are not showered with loot by their friends with level 30 characters, so they often rely on the good bargains that can be acquired from temporary shops. Gold is tight for them more often than not, so no, they are not looking to spend it just to reward good RP. They are looking for deals.

None of this means you can't run a shop like a merchant in some bazaar, haggling and roleplaying away. If that's what's fun for you, then by all means. It's your game play it how you want. But it's also false to say that these are the reasons these temporary shops exist, because it's not. They exist to give people who don't own a shop a way to sell their items. And if your goal is to sell things as fast as humanly possible both supplying a clear discount and ensuring that your potential customer pool stops and looks are a necessity.

And I think that if you spoke to anyone who uses these temporary shops as often as I do, you would find they share my opinions on it more often than not.

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Re: Temp shops just arn't long enough.

Post by ElvenEdibles » Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:55 pm

The few times I had Sappheira run a temp stall 95% of sales were when I had left it. I think people do in fact feel pressured to buy from them and that's a reason I avoid manned ones myself. Generally when I'm shopping I'm checking multiples stalls and also do not want to get bogged down in RP (sue me) because I don't find that specific type of merchant RP fun and there's a ton of stalls spread out over the isle to be checking.

I think a good solution to have temp stalls be less painful would be to increase the RL hours you can run one to either 12 or 24, with no renewals on the timeframe. When it expires, your character cannot own another temporary stall for at least 3 RL days or whatever number feels reasonable. Also have the ownership persist between resets.

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Re: Temp shops just arn't long enough.

Post by ReverentBlade » Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:23 pm

ElvenEdibles wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:55 pm
I think people do in fact feel pressured to buy from them and that's a reason I avoid manned ones myself. Generally when I'm shopping I'm checking multiples stalls and also do not want to get bogged down in RP (sue me) because I don't find that specific type of merchant RP fun and there's a ton of stalls spread out over the isle to be checking.
This describes my experience. I'll skip a stall if a merchant is looming over it, but I might peek if not. Also as a general tip, name your shop or put up a sign giving some sort of clue the nature of goods you have in stock. Lots of customers are on a mission for a specific product or resource, not necessarily window shopping.

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Re: Temp shops just arn't long enough.

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:21 pm

So Anti-RP mentality is a common theme around here it seems.

What a sad thread to read.
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Re: Temp shops just arn't long enough.

Post by ReverentBlade » Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:58 pm

On the contrary. Playtime and energy is a finite resource. Errands like shopping and crafting are done as efficiently as possible so more effort can be spent on story threads and adventures. Nothing wrong with merchant RP, but it doesn't rank highly when you have to curate and prioritize.

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Re: Temp shops just arn't long enough.

Post by Paint » Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:48 am

Some temp stalls are in areas that considerably less traffic than others and I don't think that the remedy to this lack of traffic would be encouraging people to use those stalls.

What you create instead are a bunch of set-pieces that are bound to see limited use by people who try it once or twice and then decide that it's not worth it to try to hawk their goods there because not enough people are stopping to see their wares let alone RP. There are about... four temp stalls on surface I'd consider using and all of them are in high-traffic areas. Anywhere else, and it's just not worth my time.

In such places where there is little traffic, it feels like removing the temporary stalls altogether would be a better solution than keeping them at three hours, as there is little incentive to babysit them every three hours and attempt to attract customers.

Temp stalls in high-traffic areas however, are probably fine at three hours. It's easy to attract people to at least look at your wares if they're going to be passing through anyways.

TL;DR -- my respect for a temp's stall's existence is directly proportionate to how much traffic an area regularly receives.

Edit:
Excepting the fairgrounds, which, obviously, are only used for special events anyways.

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