Sl1pp1f1st wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:09 pm
OK, here's my feedback and experiences with neo-neo-Arelith bard. My perspective is that of a skillbard and as such skills is mostly what I will be discussing. I also fell for the meme that 25 base charisma would be enough of a sacrifice on a class that needs 16, so I was greeted by my favourite time waster - yet another forced relevel.
I actually specifically targetted only characters with the feats that changed so while you consider it a time waster it was only necessary to not break things.
Chests
Pilfering Poem used to give 19, I now get 6. I have played this game for way too many years and the novelty of this little mini-game of finding trap, disabling trap, opening lock has long since worn off. Bard has since NWN's inception been one of the few classes blissfully fortunate enough to be able to more or less ignore it with minimal investment and now it has to contend with having another half page of gear to mitigate the damage while still somehow only having six pages of inventory. Arguing that it is unrealistic was, is and will always be a dumb argument in a fantasy game. I challenge you to break into a museum, attempt to don a suit of full plate armour in an instant and afterwards sprint around in it. Are you going to make full plate wearers take ten minutes to armour up and move at 50% reduced movement speed? I think not. Claiming that this advantage is unfair to other classes is also a moot point when 95% of arcane familiars picked on the server do the same thing. The end result is I will still get through to the treasure, only I will have wasted yet more time on yet more inventory management and gear swapping, so this change succeeds only in ruining a quality of life feature that bard has always had.
You should invest more skill points, you're looking at this from the wrong perspective.
How does a song give you inspiration to be as good as a master when you have no knowledge of master level capabilities?
Sailing
Sea Shanty, in my case, went from a bonus of +22 Sail to +17. I'm cool with it. We do however have a thread on sailing going on five pages complaining that the sea is not inclusive and this update will make it worse. This update is more than likely extreme enough to make a good number of bards shelve or quit, making the bard requisite for doing edgewater sailing even rarer and further locking away this content for a good number of players. The difficulty of sailing and fighting in the edgewaters remain the same.
I'd argue this is a failure of sailing not having reasonable soft caps as requirements.
Climb
Traveler's Tune used to give +27 Climb, I now get +6. The sail thread suggests it is bad to lock away content behind an arbitrary skill and the same applies to this. I used to be able to handle even the most difficult climbs whereas now I can only access the easy/mid tier spots by getting gear, managing my scarce pages of six inventory, swap gear and - once again - waste my time on a quality of life feature bard has had since climb was introduced. Not only on the bard's part, but bard was the sole option for a lot of characters who are completely inept at climbing to participate in this content and now they can only dream of it. I, being stupid, also failed to make my character an air genasi because I didn't have the good foresight to predict my skill would be slashed by 78% from one day to the next. On a side note, if I want to do any wyvern riding content I can also eat **** and cry about it, because I went from a bonus of +32 to a bonus of +6.
Same as chests, you need to invest more to know the techniques a song would speak of.
Listen
Svrtr wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:12 am
This also especially allowing for 90 listen bards and/or solo QB bards.
Sure, I don't know what possessed them to make Amplify turns/level either. My listen can still get pretty high with rounds/level stuff and I'm fine with that. Sentinel's Song sure looks silly however, going from +22 to a healthy +0. I can instead give the middle finger to every character around me and opt for the most boring song in the book, Selfish Solo, and get +6, here's me playing the support class.
Stealth
Deceptive Ditty went from +22 to +17 Hide, +0 Move Silently and also looks silly. My stealth game was probably in the top 10-5% of the server, now it is downgraded to viable for PvM only, locking me away from additional content. Arguing that it is unrealistic to sing and move silently remains a dumb argument in a fantasy game. I encourage you to get an oxygen tank and dive to the bottom of the Mariana Trench and not die from decompression sickness. Are you going to instantly Fugue anyone stepping out of a diving bell? I think not. I play a sneak, so this is the equivalent of cutting all melee classes' disc or all caster classes' spellcraft and concentration by 22 and bard with their lead foot is no longer cool enough to hang out with with their shady friends. Having gutted my Dexterity for Charisma and very few spells granting Move Silently there is also no way to recuperate this loss.
Not sure if you've ever tried to sing and listen/move quietly before, it's pretty hard going on impossible without advanced training.
This is under consideration on additional changes.
Jack of no trades
If you look up bard in more or less any fantasy lore setting you will find the phrase "Jack-of-all-trades" or some variation thereof. All of the above combines to make this abomination of a bard a Jack of no (some) trades and is a hollowing out of their class identity which has persisted since 2002. What you have succeeded in removing is for the most part also simple QoL features like dealing with chests and doing climbing spots rather than features making them percievably imbalanced in PvP, making the class more of a drag to play, unfun and indeed, a waste of time. Skillbloat is mentioned, well skills is the sole reason many pick this class in the first place and the bard gets neither powerful spells, summons or combat proficiency as the tradeoff.
Literally can invest in all skills, you're also missing the second part to Jack of all trades.
“a jack of all trades is a master of none, but oftentimes better than a master of one.”
This is absolutely not what it was before this change, it was out competing nearly every skill dedicated class.
PvM
Who cares. Hardcore Arelith with low level stuff like kuo toa priests with two casts of Acid Sheathe is long dead and levelling is easier than it has ever been. I guess I get minus two AC due to no Armor Skin. I do miss being able to get rid of the writ paper to free up my inventory though.
The writ paper is on the agenda to fix but needs system design changes.
Rushed & Unfinished
Half the songs now do nothing making this update feel like a rushed, half thought out, half finished, halving of a class unworthy of PGCC testing, much less live server implementation. Sentinel's Song gives 0 Listen, Deceptive Ditty gives 0 Move Silently, Masking Melody now recieves no ESF Perform bonus, this looks good to you? Would it perhaps be wise to address some of these issues before nuking a class from one day to the next? Is there a particular reason this had to be shipped out so suddenly after SoTH bard seemingly being fine for eight months?
TL:DR
Aniel wrote: ↑Wed Mar 23, 2022 3:40 am
From sorrowkitten, Red Ropes, Aniel, et al
With contributions from KenC
===========
BARD UPDATE
Bard has had a lot of work done to it to make it a more versatile, enjoyable and user-friendly class to play. Many bugs were fixed and new features have been added.
This, out the window
All QoL features removed, time wasted
Content locked for both bard and friends
Bard unviable for high end stealth
Sea worse
2/10, cannot recommend
This change has been in the works for months and is actually about half of what could have been done.
I am only responding to this as you made some points I'm seeing repeated and want that curtailed.
I appreciate feedback but you really should try to avoid being emotive when giving it, this isn't a political race.