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It does, Core song, as in, not a specific, still gives a bonus to all skills. Just at the reduced rate of 1/6, not 1/3 as pre adjusted.Subtext wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:51 pmThat said, I think even for people with minimal investment it might be nice if at least the baseline bonus applied fully. It's not going to turn you into a pro but when you're hovering just so below a certain DC, it just might make the difference.Kelaris wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:43 pmI can understand needing to lower the top end contribution towards skills since bards were an outlier, but I find it frustrating to lose access to the jack of all trades/skills aspect of the class. The things I miss the most are being able to open basic locks/disable traps (expensive sail suit will take a long time to remake), and helping unskilled people with climbing, basic sailing, and riding. Most builds have the majority of their skill choices eaten by "mandatory" skills for basic combat functionality, leaving very few people (including the bard) able to invest many points in interesting skills.
This is entirely build dependant and not something we can address without upsetting balance in favor of a single playstyle.Kelaris wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:43 pmIf these changes are staying, please consider making bard less awful to play at lower levels, and increase its personal contribution in combat. Between the short duration, lack of charges, long cooldown, and weak effects, the song is borderline worthless until the mid 20s.
Irongron wrote:I've literally never used -guard on anyone.
Bards are awful to play at lower level? Don't you know there's instructments that gives Summon Creature VI 1 use/day at lvl 3? With Spell focus Conj these can carry you to mid level easily.Kelaris wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:43 pmIf these changes are staying, please consider making bard less awful to play at lower levels, and increase its personal contribution in combat. Between the short duration, lack of charges, long cooldown, and weak effects, the song is borderline worthless until the mid 20s.
Hazard wrote: Doing that on a non-mundane requires constant stops to rest, chugging alcohol whenever your spells start wearing off/get dispelled, and with casters, you're going to get through that dungeon once in the time a 25/5 can get through it 10+ times.
I agree with Helsing partly. The nerf doesn't hurt bard much in the battle aspect.Helsing wrote: ↑Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:21 amBards are awful to play at lower level? Don't you know there's instructments that gives Summon Creature VI 1 use/day at lvl 3? With Spell focus Conj these can carry you to mid level easily.Kelaris wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:43 pmIf these changes are staying, please consider making bard less awful to play at lower levels, and increase its personal contribution in combat. Between the short duration, lack of charges, long cooldown, and weak effects, the song is borderline worthless until the mid 20s.
You mean... bards?
Svrtr wrote:I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too
Some sort of bard. I know there is a 27 wizard/ 3 bard holding 20 of the harps merely for mass haste
The main gripe wasn't EDR bard, it was nigh always the sheer skill bloat bard allowed for, and how minimal investment in a skill would allow a bard to still get mid 30s to 40s with little investment. This also especially allowing for 90 listen bards and/or solo QB bards.Sl1pp1f1st wrote: ↑Thu Nov 24, 2022 7:03 pmNegates whole class feature with a level 2 spell.
Also slashes 70% of all skills by 12-20 (!) points making it in a lot of respects worse than vanilla bard. Level 30 vanilla bard song in contrast gives +19 to all skills, making this abomination a vastly different experience from even the base class.
Curbstomps SoTH bard a little extra by eating additionally two epic feats, one of which provides literally no benefit to the class whatsoever (Epic Reputation is trash, and yes, the FOIG way of acquiring it for free is gone).
Yea, I'd say it's a little much.
If the main gripe was EDR bard, how about just returning con requirement for EDR to 21? Heck, make it 23. Or simpler yet, disable SoTH if EDRI is present.
After playing my bard in the new rules i can give some feedback from the average / non-optimized builds point of view:Svrtr wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:12 amThe main gripe wasn't EDR bard, it was nigh always the sheer skill bloat bard allowed for, and how minimal investment in a skill would allow a bard to still get mid 30s to 40s with little investment. This also especially allowing for 90 listen bards and/or solo QB bards.Sl1pp1f1st wrote: ↑Thu Nov 24, 2022 7:03 pm
If the main gripe was EDR bard, how about just returning con requirement for EDR to 21? Heck, make it 23. Or simpler yet, disable SoTH if EDRI is present.
The intent was to curb skill bloat bard song allowed for, and it was successful. You still get 1 rank per 6 levels and have songs that themselves have more targeted bonuses, just not 2 epic skill foci values worth of bonus
Not sure, what the problem was, but this seems to indicate their sturdiness.Bard had become a class that was capable of out competing almost all other support built classes, in almost every scenario, while then also retaining the capacity to be incredibly hard to defeat.
The above changes are designed address this.
I want to address this because I think you're missing the point of the update, or at least how i see it. Bard is not that hard to defeat in pvp. It is not that durable of a class in general. This nerf was not meant to target bard's durability in combat at all in any way. It was specifically meant to reduce the 'jack of all trades' efficiency when it comes to skill check situations (stealth vs detection, apprise, search, disguise, sail and many others) which was the most broken op part about bard. Now it is more chill and rewards people who are trying to actually be good at that said skill rather than just get a random +20 with no investment from any side. It was also meant to put a heavier tax on song of the heart because it's really *that* good and the investment should be proportionate.
Svrtr wrote:I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too
You can absolutely negate silence, there's a check when you enter the aura or have the spell cast upon you.AstralUniverse wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 5:50 pmAfaik, a bard cannot negate a silence aura with spell resistance helmet since it is not cast on them and I honestly dont remember if there's a spell resistance check when you enter the aura.
No one is using the wand on the bard, but I wasnt sure about this part. Good to know.Yvesza wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 5:56 pmthere's a check when you enter the auraAstralUniverse wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 5:50 pmAfaik, a bard cannot negate a silence aura with spell resistance helmet since it is not cast on them and I honestly dont remember if there's a spell resistance check when you enter the aura.
Svrtr wrote:I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too
there are ways but they are unreliable, the class can't have enough of those spells which are all easily breached and their duration will be too short if used from an item and you have to keep all of that up just to maintain your class's main ability its depressing.Yvesza wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 5:20 pmBards have a lot of innate ways to mitigate silence, ethereal visage and minor glove of invulnerability which both make you immune to the effect.
They can also wear the SR helmet to stop scroll and wand castings of the spell, or get access to spell mantles or a casting of spell resistance from a cleric or favoured soul to become all but immune to it.
Silence is just as easily countered, it can even be dispelled reliably. Bard has a suite of tools to deal with it, there's counterplay to a bard now even if it's niche. It's not a free pass to destroy bard, it's an option to be considered.-stick- wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:22 pmthere are ways but they are unreliable, the class can't have enough of those spells which are all easily breached and their duration will be too short if used from an item and you have to keep all of that up just to maintain your class's main ability its depressing.Yvesza wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 5:20 pmBards have a lot of innate ways to mitigate silence, ethereal visage and minor glove of invulnerability which both make you immune to the effect.
They can also wear the SR helmet to stop scroll and wand castings of the spell, or get access to spell mantles or a casting of spell resistance from a cleric or favoured soul to become all but immune to it.
that's why i think that Selfish Solo should get a free pass
Irongron wrote:I've literally never used -guard on anyone.
Sure, I don't know what possessed them to make Amplify turns/level either. My listen can still get pretty high with rounds/level stuff and I'm fine with that. Sentinel's Song sure looks silly however, going from +22 to a healthy +0. I can instead give the middle finger to every character around me and opt for the most boring song in the book, Selfish Solo, and get +6, here's me playing the support class.
This, out the windowAniel wrote: ↑Wed Mar 23, 2022 3:40 am
From sorrowkitten, Red Ropes, Aniel, et al
With contributions from KenC
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BARD UPDATE
Bard has had a lot of work done to it to make it a more versatile, enjoyable and user-friendly class to play. Many bugs were fixed and new features have been added.
Some decents points, but as Xerah pointed out, it kills motivation for anyone to re-consider changes if they feel like they've just been slapped in the face with rudeness. Your post would be easier to read if you cut out the ranty bits.