Bard nerf feedback

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Sandrow
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Bard nerf feedback

Post by Sandrow » Tue Nov 22, 2022 1:08 pm

Even as a bard player myself, I would accept the reason why bard needs some nerf. However, there are something that goes too far. Here are some of mine opinions.

1. ESF: Perform special abilities should be fixed. It makes Masking Melody nerf a joke. How could we say "Masking Melody no longer protects from Scry." if it doesn't work before the update? Let alone the sea shanty's water breath ----- it works well within a month, but now it would let you drown in the water unprepared.

2. Some songs are specially designed to be have high skill bonus. I would suggest a separate skill bonus nerf. Here are a list:

Traveler's Tune: If you already have 33 skill point in ride, how could you even need another 30 level bonus? The climbing is similar

Purser's Piece: It's already caped by bard's int mod. It doesn't need a second cap. Also if a song provides nothing (if you has no skill investment, it's awful. I would recommend immunity against charm or dominate, which can also be granted by bard's mind blank. Or +2 int.)

Also if the base extra bonus minimum is set to half would be more acceptable(This is personal)

3. Song of the heart is going to eat two more feats! And, some FOIG means of getting Epic Reputation will become more popular , ironically.

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Re: Bard nerf feedback

Post by Aren » Tue Nov 22, 2022 2:06 pm

Inb4 the FOIG way to get epic reputation got removed.
Last edited by Aren on Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bard nerf feedback

Post by Gwenneth_Corvain » Tue Nov 22, 2022 2:42 pm

i'm sorry - but this shreds bard builds who want to invest heavily in good songs.
Is it even numerically POSSIBLE to get Song of the heart anymore?

You already had several feats as a prerequisite that can only be taken in epics to begin with. Now two more (unremitting cadence II and epic reputation)

That means you need, all taken in the epics.
Lasting inspiration --> unremitting cadence --> unremitting cadence II --> epic reputation --> song of the heart

And do i understand that correctly? My bard now needs to already be able to open most locks to benefit from the song that specifically exists to make me capable of opening locks?

This feels like regular bards are being thrown under the bus wholesale because one skill in one song for one fringe group of people doing one specific activity was too good (sail).

How many bards who don't sail at all have become collateral for how many who do?

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Re: Bard nerf feedback

Post by Sincra » Tue Nov 22, 2022 2:57 pm

Gwenneth_Corvain wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 2:42 pm
Is it even numerically POSSIBLE to get Song of the heart anymore?

You already had several feats as a prerequisite that can only be taken in epics to begin with. Now two more (unremitting cadence II and epic reputation)

That means you need, all taken in the epics.
Lasting inspiration --> unremitting cadence --> unremitting cadence II --> epic reputation --> song of the heart
21. Esf perform
23. Lasting inspiration
24. Unremitting 1
26. Unremitting 2
27. Epic reputation
29. SoTH
30. ?
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Re: Bard nerf feedback

Post by Gwenneth_Corvain » Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:02 pm

Sincra wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 2:57 pm
Gwenneth_Corvain wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 2:42 pm
Is it even numerically POSSIBLE to get Song of the heart anymore?

You already had several feats as a prerequisite that can only be taken in epics to begin with. Now two more (unremitting cadence II and epic reputation)

That means you need, all taken in the epics.
Lasting inspiration --> unremitting cadence --> unremitting cadence II --> epic reputation --> song of the heart
21. Esf perform
23. Lasting inspiration
24. Unremitting 1
26. Unremitting 2
27. Epic reputation
29. SoTH
30. ?
So it's only possible with bardic bonus feats and no longer available to anyone dipping 4 levels or more in another class since you don't get the 26 or 29 feat?

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Re: Bard nerf feedback

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:06 pm

Gwenneth_Corvain wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:02 pm
So it's only possible with bardic bonus feats and no longer available to anyone dipping 4 levels or more in another class since you don't get the 26 or 29 feat?
If you dip 4 lvls in another class you still get the 26th bonus feat so you should still fit everything without the 29th feat,
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I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Bard nerf feedback

Post by Gwenneth_Corvain » Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:14 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:06 pm
Gwenneth_Corvain wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:02 pm
So it's only possible with bardic bonus feats and no longer available to anyone dipping 4 levels or more in another class since you don't get the 26 or 29 feat?
If you dip 4 lvls in another class you still get the 26th bonus feat so you should still fit everything without the 29th feat,
Thanks - good to know.
Still feels a severe nerf that the class who is specifically there to support others can now more effectivelysupport people who don't need it, and less effectively those who do need it.
The opposite - something like diminishig returns if the target already has a high skill - would seem much more targeted to preventing crazy numbers than weakening the weak.

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Re: Bard nerf feedback

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:18 pm

Gwenneth_Corvain wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:14 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:06 pm
Gwenneth_Corvain wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:02 pm
So it's only possible with bardic bonus feats and no longer available to anyone dipping 4 levels or more in another class since you don't get the 26 or 29 feat?
If you dip 4 lvls in another class you still get the 26th bonus feat so you should still fit everything without the 29th feat,
Thanks - good to know.
Still feels a severe nerf that the class who is specifically there to support others can now more effectivelysupport people who don't need it, and less effectively those who do need it.
The opposite - something like diminishig returns if the target already has a high skill - would seem much more targeted to preventing crazy numbers than weakening the weak.
song of the heart is meant to be a full investment now. here's a crazy idea. Forgo song of the heart and then you also dont need all this extra charisma. Go epic damage reduction x3 instead.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Bard nerf feedback

Post by Sincra » Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:21 pm

Sandrow wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 1:08 pm
1. ESF: Perform special abilities should be fixed. It makes Masking Melody nerf a joke. How could we say "Masking Melody no longer protects from Scry." if it doesn't work before the update? Let alone the sea shanty's water breath ----- it works well within a month, but now it would let you drown in the water unprepared.
They're going to be fixed, update notes say what is intended like this as to avoid confusion.
The ESF effects have been a known issue for some time and the people who ordinarily I'd ask to attend this bug have been busy.
2. Some songs are specially designed to be have high skill bonus. I would suggest a separate skill bonus nerf. Here are a list:

Traveler's Tune: If you already have 33 skill point in ride, how could you even need another 30 level bonus? The climbing is similar

Purser's Piece: It's already caped by bard's int mod. It doesn't need a second cap. Also if a song provides nothing (if you has no skill investment, it's awful. I would recommend immunity against charm or dominate, which can also be granted by bard's mind blank. Or +2 int.)
For consistent design they will not be receiving a different negative. The idea is to reward smart investment and using the very visible equation to determine where you need to stop.

On the ride song:
Ride has many penalties and bonuses hidden, and is overdue a rework.

Climbing song:
There's reportedly DC 100 climbs now, not sure how extra is not needed for these.

Pursers Piece: I'm not sure how capping it by another stat is an issue, especially when this stat cap was not adjusted so only matters from the Bards perspective.
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Re: Bard nerf feedback

Post by Sincra » Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:26 pm

Gwenneth_Corvain wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:14 pm
something like diminishig returns if the target already has a high skill - would seem much more targeted to preventing crazy numbers than weakening the weak.
This is far worse than bumping people that invest fully as then bards functionally help less and discourages full investment.
Irongron wrote:I've literally never used -guard on anyone.

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Re: Bard nerf feedback

Post by Gwenneth_Corvain » Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:30 pm

Sincra wrote: The idea is to reward smart investment and using the very visible equation to determine where you need to stop.
Sincra wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:26 pm
Gwenneth_Corvain wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:14 pm
something like diminishig returns if the target already has a high skill - would seem much more targeted to preventing crazy numbers than weakening the weak.
This is far worse than bumping people that invest fully as then bards functionally help less and discourages full investment.
So are full investments supposed to be encouraged or not?

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Re: Bard nerf feedback

Post by Sincra » Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:33 pm

Gwenneth_Corvain wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:30 pm
Sincra wrote: The idea is to reward smart investment and using the very visible equation to determine where you need to stop.
Sincra wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:26 pm
Gwenneth_Corvain wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:14 pm
something like diminishig returns if the target already has a high skill - would seem much more targeted to preventing crazy numbers than weakening the weak.
This is far worse than bumping people that invest fully as then bards functionally help less and discourages full investment.
So are full investments supposed to be encouraged or not?
Yes, because you need to go past the bonus and be at a requisite % of max current level potential to reach your goal.

I'd ask we not make this a pedantic debate as I can simply stop responding.
Irongron wrote:I've literally never used -guard on anyone.

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Re: Bard nerf feedback

Post by Gwenneth_Corvain » Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:49 pm

Apologies - that wasn't the intention. I am trying to understand the intended use of bard as a support class with these changes.

For context: i do not sail. I play a bard and my partner plays a barbarian. Neither of us are optimized for PvP or know FOIG feat access secrets. I'd consider us the perfectly average players.
My songs were supposed to offset her classes weaknesses so between the two of us we are a viable adventuring duo. I understood that was the intended role of the class.

If bard was generally too good at that the change accomplishes what it should.

I will modify my build to not include SotH and see how it performs.

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Re: Bard nerf feedback

Post by Sincra » Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:56 pm

Gwenneth_Corvain wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:49 pm
Apologies - that wasn't the intention. I am trying to understand the intended use of bard as a support class with these changes.

For context: i do not sail. I play a bard and my partner plays a barbarian. Neither of us are optimized for PvP or know FOIG feat access secrets. I'd consider us the perfectly average players.
My songs were supposed to offset her classes weaknesses so between the two of us we are a viable adventuring duo. I understood that was the intended role of the class.

If bard was generally too good at that the change accomplishes what it should.

I will modify my build to not include SotH and see how it performs.
All good!

SoTH is intended as an expensive capstone as it actually effectively bypasses the upper limit of Bard song, this unfortunately has to come at a price and before this was a price of feat you'd likely take anyway and a stat that didn't stop EDR 3/EDR 2 and Armor skin on top.

I've personally seen how frustrating an EDR 3 Bard is to deal with, so having all that and being incredibly hard to take down, it was a bit much, that's why we made the choice Super support and squishy vs Good support and tanky.


For what it's worth, you still get the core songs Universal skills, even if at the reduced rate. This helps cover the weaknesses some.
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Re: Bard nerf feedback

Post by Xerah » Tue Nov 22, 2022 5:48 pm

The update is pretty reasonable, all things considered.

My one issue is the FOIG method of getting Epic Reputation should likely be removed if it's now more than a fluffy bonus/flavour when it was originally given (not to mention not all characters would realistically do this).
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Re: Bard nerf feedback

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:48 pm

Xerah wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 5:48 pm
My one issue is the FOIG method of getting Epic Reputation should likely be removed if it's now more than a fluffy bonus/flavour when it was originally given (not to mention not all characters would realistically do this).
I'm pretty sure it was removed along with the permadeath associated with the sad end of that mechanic but I could be wrong on that one.
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I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Bard nerf feedback

Post by Quidix » Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:57 pm

Seems a very sensible adjustment to me. If anything, I was surprised the AC / AB was not touched.

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Re: Bard nerf feedback

Post by Morgy » Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:23 pm

I think the base skill nerf was a bit much, from 1 skill point per 3 song levels, to 1 per 6.. Could we not settle for four? My 27 bard song currently gives 4 skill points, which seems very weak alongside the capping of untrained skills.

The listen skill, which -was- very high, has taken the double hit from a base song reduction, and now not being boosted by Sentinel's Song. This doesn't affect wisdom classes which can still reach 110+ with similar investment, due to sharing amplify.

Bards are pure support class, and yes they were a bit too strong at it, but all this at once was a bit harsh.

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Re: Bard nerf feedback

Post by Yvesza » Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:08 pm

I genuinely think amplify is still a problem, +20 listen for turns / level is pushing the skill to absurd levels for an exceptionally lengthy duration.

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Re: Bard nerf feedback

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:24 pm

Quidix wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:57 pm
Seems a very sensible adjustment to me. If anything, I was surprised the AC / AB was not touched.
I'm glad the ac/ab were not touched (although I wouldnt terribly mind if some of them were moved to selfish solo) because they were not the problem and not the reason bard had been terribly obnoxious. Nerfing them would just result in bard being both bad support even compared to mages and clerics, and also entirely nukes from orbit any poor attempt to make a functional melee bard in 2022. So I'm very glad we nuked the skills and song of the heart instead and I think it was spot on.
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I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Bard nerf feedback

Post by Rei_Jin » Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:43 am

As a player of a level 30 bard before this balance adjustment, this change hurts. With that said, I appreciate that the shape of it was released earlier, so I could think through how to approach it for my character.

I’ve settled on an alternate build, and will be shifting to that.

I look forward to when the ESF Perform bonuses are fixed.

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Re: Bard nerf feedback

Post by Margrave » Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:58 am

The "Noisy Songs" bit reads like a belated April's Fools.

Masking melody, which has no visible effect, is apparently still too disruptive to grant the user skill buffs.

What exactly is the purpose of Deceptive Ditty, now? Make sure the... Wizard in your party gets better corner sneaks off?


I think a different mechanism should have been used. It is still quite possible to reach the soft caps on bard, this part of the changes just made it more annoying while also introducing the glaring contradiction of Masking Melody which apparently is so powerful that it doesn't even need an ESF feature unlike every other custom song.

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Re: Bard nerf feedback

Post by Kelaris » Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:43 pm

I've been playing a bard for the past several months and mostly enjoyed it, aside from the difficulty in finding the various songs to even have them as an option. I wasn't a meta build. No SoTH, no EDR. I enjoyed the jack of all trades, master of a couple aspect of the class, and found it an acceptable tradeoff for having no useful summons, no meaningful damage, no burst healing, and no epic spell focus cookies.

I can understand needing to lower the top end contribution towards skills since bards were an outlier, but I find it frustrating to lose access to the jack of all trades/skills aspect of the class. The things I miss the most are being able to open basic locks/disable traps (expensive sail suit will take a long time to remake), and helping unskilled people with climbing, basic sailing, and riding. Most builds have the majority of their skill choices eaten by "mandatory" skills for basic combat functionality, leaving very few people (including the bard) able to invest many points in interesting skills.

I'm not very experienced with PvP, but the silence change seems exceptionally harsh. If I understand it correctly, it may as well be an unresistible antimagic field for bards that any mundane can have on a cheap wand and cast on themselves? Not sure what a bard can possibly do to counter that or otherwise contribute to a fight.

If these changes are staying, please consider making bard less awful to play at lower levels, and increase its personal contribution in combat. Between the short duration, lack of charges, long cooldown, and weak effects, the song is borderline worthless until the mid 20s.

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Re: Bard nerf feedback

Post by Yvesza » Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:17 pm

Be aware that the silence aura has a lot of checks, namely... Spell resistance rolls against it, spell mantle will eat the spell, ethereal visage makes you immune to the effects of silence. There are no actually long lived sources of silence worth using outside of casting the spell, too.

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Re: Bard nerf feedback

Post by Subtext » Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:51 pm

Kelaris wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:43 pm
I can understand needing to lower the top end contribution towards skills since bards were an outlier, but I find it frustrating to lose access to the jack of all trades/skills aspect of the class. The things I miss the most are being able to open basic locks/disable traps (expensive sail suit will take a long time to remake), and helping unskilled people with climbing, basic sailing, and riding. Most builds have the majority of their skill choices eaten by "mandatory" skills for basic combat functionality, leaving very few people (including the bard) able to invest many points in interesting skills.
I don't think the contribution at higher skill investment should be lower at all and I do like thar change - however, before the situation was that a fully trained bard could for example open locks with a DC of 75 with only one point invested...given they use their spells, song and custom gear. I think that's a bit much for someone who essentially just had the first lesson of lockpicking 101.
That said, I think even for people with minimal investment it might be nice if at least the baseline bonus applied fully. It's not going to turn you into a pro but when you're hovering just so below a certain DC, it just might make the difference.

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