Excessive Fixtures

[Za-Lord~s Guard]

I was taking a walk through a few zones that were added since I last leveled a character, and found the zones were absolutely LOADED down with fixtures. I'm avoiding naming specific zones or fixtures to avoid this being a call out, but can we as a community take a moment to step back and appreciate that the server is a shared sandbox? I am doubtful that anyone is RP'ing with 99% of these fixtures, and for how quickly they can be made and placed the 24 hour rule for theft doesn't allow keeping the landscape clear. Many of the fixtures clash with their surroundings too, and it makes for what might be an immersive stroll through the forest or jungle a "how many unused altars, abandoned tents, and other fixtures can we spot?"



This pic seems to be the logic some players are operating under. It would be great if fixtures were not limited per zone, but by a limited number tied to a player's CD key if people can't help themselves. Otherwise we end up with this as our island:


(There's still a little green in there, I'm sure we can fit one more altar in)

[stoneheart-]

It's not just new areas. Any sort of wilderness area looks like someone's flat. I can handle a campsite: a tent and a cookfire. But when luxury chairs and silk-canopy beds are being lain out with flowerpots and chests of drawers surrounded by 60 pillars it becomes ugly and ill-fitting to the area. Like imagine going to any national park and seeing someone had thrown a bed from some victorian mansion down, as well as the whole bedroom with persian carpets and all.

[Crookedblossom]

I agree, I think a lot of the character of certain zones/locations is lost when its bogged down with tons of fixtures, especially ones that are unnamed and undescribed. In my opinion, fixtures serve as points of roleplay or as small bits of flavor. But I echo stoneheart-'s sentiment, that constructing what amounts to a small village and calling it a "campsite" in the middle of a wilderness map is overdoing it.

I'm not really sure what to recommend in regards to addressing fixture clutter, other than encouraging the player base to consider the clutter and whether or not they're adding to it. Plants and altars tend to be the biggest offenders, in my experience. And I've found it to be the most distracting in wilderness areas, personally.

Part of me wants to recommend perhaps that the team conduct cleanings of wilderness areas every so often to get rid of unnamed/undescribed/unused fixtures, but on the other hand, I realize that's more of a reactionary treatment rather than a preventative one.

[msheeler]

Sometimes I wonder if it make sense to clean out some of these and place a single sign in the spot that says:

This looked un-used, contact <insert name> at <insert place> with in one month (10RL days) if this was being used and you want your things back.

I bet 75% of the time you'd never hear back.

You could also pre-emptively sign a place with a message board and be like "This will be cleaned out in one month if no response is left here. With love, your friendly neighbor hood cleaning crew"

[LichBait]

Wilderness fixture decay would be neat.

[-XXX-]

"A player can steal one fixture per 24 hrs."
^Doesn't seem to address how many fixtures can be bashed.

Ofc, common sense is best applied here as well - if I bash a couple of fixtures and somebody immediately repairs them, then it means they're actively using them so why not let them have their fun?
On the other hand there's a lot of fixtures left behind by characters who are either long gone or have lost interest in them - so bash, then return a day or two later and scoop the remains away one by one.

[JustMonika]

It's part of the role and responsibility of DM's to erase any fixtures they don't think are in keeping with the setting. I think there's a default warning in the fixtures (Or is it when you place them?) that they can be removed at any time if the team don't think they're fitting.

It was quite common back in my day. Particularly when people insisted in placing them _inside dungeons_ in defiance of the hoard of angry monsters that would presumably destroy it the second the player left.

The most well known example was after the destruction of Wharftown, when any fixtures placed on the Ex-Wharftown map got vaporized within a day.


I guess what I'm saying is we as players should probably not be looking to fix this. Players policing players or deciding what 'Looks right', only ends badly and causes player vs player drama. (Not the IC kind!)

If there are areas that you think have gotten out of hand, maybe just shoot the DM Team a message and ask them to take a look at it?

[Za-Lord~s Guard]

Another player has informed me that the 24 hour rule doesn't apply to fixtures in public areas/zones, so I suppose this isn't a problem after all if we're permitted to freely grab as many offending fixtures and bin them as is needed.

[msheeler]

Last time I was told that the same applied to chests. For example, if I own a quarter and set it to public access then anyone can take anything and any amount from the chest.

[Scurvy Cur]

I think it actually goes a little deeper than cleaning out bad/unnamed/undescribed fixtures.

I've been musing on this question a bit lately, as I've been walking around the module visiting spaces that have a lot of special meaning to me, or to other players, only to find that they've become a fixture camp.

I will be very clear, some of these fixture assemblies are clearly very carefully arranged. Many of them are in fact quite well-done. But this doesn't get around the fundamental problem that a lot of them have: They crowd other people out of using spaces for their own purposes.

It's important for a module like Arelith to have open spaces where RP can happen, where people can assign their own meaning and significance, and can develop their own memories. When you dump a pile of fixtures on one of these spaces, you're defining that space for everyone that comes after, unless someone comes along and tears down your fixture pile. We already have a quarter system that allows us to gatekeep little corners of the module to align with our own vision for what a space should be. We don't need to treat the rest of the server this way, and should leave some spaces (especially some of the breathtaking/aesthetically excellent ones) in their pristine state for others to enjoy in their own way. You wouldn't dump art, even good art, all over a national park and expect it to go well. I think the same applies here.

[Amateur Hour]

Going a little deeper, I think there's a general issue at play as well:

Everyone wants their character to leave an indelible mark and never be forgotten, but there is only so much space - physical and mental - for marks to be left.

We've got to become okay with being forgotten and having all our work disappear sooner rather than later. It's the only way to make space for other people to make their own temporary marks.

[JustMonika]

This is certainly true. I used to be fairly prolific on fixture making as Quistillia.

What I try to do however, is rather than make 'locations' or 'things', I make specific items with a specific purpose and let them lose into the world. Quistillia made paintings, for people, for an occasion, as a message, or a gift, and then... Gave them away. She made statues - One of my favourites was her statue of Shar which sat quietly on display in the Cordor Museum for around 3 years before someone got rid of it.

Some, even most, vanish or are destroyed in time. Some might be in characters inventories, or maybe they're displayed in a quarter I'll never see. But every now and again, I'll stumble across something she made somewhere in the world that someone's kept around for some reason and that always makes me happy.

But I think (Perhaps self centeredly of me) that it's a better approach to do a little often, than to try to build one 'thing' or try to change an area.

The only exception is gravestones. I'm very fond of the odd statue or a gravestone that remembers a fallen character.

[MalKalz]

A lot of wilderness areas have reduced fixture limits to avoid spam. We will continue to review the numbers and adjust as needed - especially if it hinders general pathing or access to particular portions of the area that all players should have access to.

[JustMonika]

A lot of wilderness areas have reduced fixture limits to avoid spam. We will continue to review the numbers and adjust as needed - especially if it hinders general pathing or access to particular portions of the area that all players should have access to.

Isn't the issue with reduced fixture counts that it'll lead to just one player doing one 'Thing', locking it out from anyone else doing anything?

If bob makes 'Bob's camp' consisting of 10 fixtures on a ten fixture map, they've still done what concerns the Op, but all the reduced count as done is ensure no-one can stick a statue or a grave anywhere else.

[MalKalz]

Partially.

The intention of lower fixture values in wilderness areas is to not over saturate the area with them. This still enables it to feel like a proper wilderness area. Irongron has been very strict on some areas only having a fixture limit of 5 and sometimes up to 15.

[Marsi]

I am (or was?) staunchly pro-fixture. I believed the occasional obnoxious fixture garden was the price we paid for the ability to shape the shared world and leave things behind. That anyone could do this is what differentiated Arelith from other generic fantasy PWs for me.

That was a view formed pre-EE of course. Logging back in these days I'm shocked to see how blanketed the landscape is in lazy, selfish fixtures. So, so, so many chairs and random tables.

A good fixture should provide meaning without a pre-existing relationship to the creator or any outside context except the object itself. A good fixture installation is "representative" not literal. By that I mean a single altar and maybe a column or two becomes a shrine, and there's no need for tens of other supporting furniture.

I don't think anyone should feel bad or have to come up with complex in-character justifications for recycling (or bashing/binning) pointless fixtures or those that have outlived their purpose.

Wilderness fixture decay would be neat.

Yeah. This seems like the obvious solution to me. I've always held the same view as JustMonika - fixture limit reduction seems like it misses the point. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if its a method to gradually remove wilderness fixtures as a possibility entirely.

If the fixture is well-loved, then it will be maintained long after the creator is gone. If it is an eyesore, or more commonly, a bunch of garbage furniture the creator has forgotten about, it will decay.

You could even make fixture decay an in-world quality. An old shrine is eventually covered in vines and a statue develops a patina.

Or honestly, just limit wilderness fixtures to stone/marble. No one really needs to be putting down permanent chairs and tables in a forest. It would be great if there were temporary fixtures -- camp furniture -- that was light to carry but did not persist through a reset. So a wayward party could make camp or an event could be held without leaving behind a roadside picnic.

[The GrumpyCat]

1) Please feel free to report areas where you feel the fixture presence is invasive/disrupting, and we'll look at it. Just shoot the DM team a message.

2) Re bashing - we're a bit easier going with bashing than with stealing given that bashed fixtures can be repaired. So if you want to bash two or three fixtures? Go for it. But I wouldn't bash much more than that, as that starts stepping into griefing.

[Scylon]

Sounds like there needs to be wilderness fixture degradation system. Make it only apply after one has been bashed. If it is not fixed with in X time, it just get removed.

This would ensure places that mean something to players will be maintained and areas that are just an eyesore to the general populace will get disposed off.

Anything that has stood for 10 years or something that actually signify some event or something might qualify to become a permanent server feature. Especially if it like one of those tucked out of the way statues that barely anyone sees.

On a side note. It would be nice to to have something a little better then just bash an walk off. Like a desecration feature/ritual that'll leave rubble and fire at a location till the next reset showing an areas was raided.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

The issue with fixture decay is there are some cool ancient fixtures, things from player graveyards and the like. Or even altars. I like the history that can be told with fixtures and hope that won't go away.

[The GrumpyCat]

Sounds like there needs to be wilderness fixture degradation system. Make it only apply after one has been bashed. If it is not fixed with in X time, it just get removed.

This would ensure places that mean something to players will be maintained and areas that are just an eyesore to the general populace will get disposed off.

Anything that has stood for 10 years or something that actually signify some event or something might qualify to become a permanent server feature. Especially if it like one of those tucked out of the way statues that barely anyone sees.

On a side note. It would be nice to to have something a little better then just bash an walk off. Like a desecration feature/ritual that'll leave rubble and fire at a location till the next reset showing an areas was raided.

I think this is the case already? It's supposed to be anyway - that after ten IRL days, if a bashed fixture isn't repaired it vanishes.

[Edens_Fall]

Another player has informed me that the 24 hour rule doesn't apply to fixtures in public areas/zones, so I suppose this isn't a problem after all if we're permitted to freely grab as many offending fixtures and bin them as is needed.

In such cases, I often bash a few fixtures in passing. If, after a day or so, the fixtures are not repaired "ie no one is using them" I'll trash them or let the system remove them after a set time.

But yeah, feel free to clean areas up if you have a desire. The staff has been supportive of this in the past. Just be mindful of things still in use or of historical value.

LASTLY, love the forum name! Can I bribe you with pizza?

[Za-Lord~s Guard]

Another player has informed me that the 24 hour rule doesn't apply to fixtures in public areas/zones, so I suppose this isn't a problem after all if we're permitted to freely grab as many offending fixtures and bin them as is needed.

In such cases, I often bash a few fixtures in passing. If, after a day or so, the fixtures are not repaired "ie no one is using them" I'll trash them or let the system remove them after a set time.

But yeah, feel free to clean areas up if you have a desire. The staff has been supportive of this in the past. Just be mindful of things still in use or of historical value.

What I hope to run into often would be something along the lines of, a wayward shrine or light camp that has visitors often who roleplay and do stuff at that site regularly.

More often though, it plays out that no one uses these wilderness shrines or fixture camps, and instead they are just dropped around as if to "claim" an area in the name of a god or group. No one is using them as far as can be seen, there are no gatherings or group events held around them, and if anything is done with them they're immediately replaced with a new one with no RP or interaction to speak of. The only roleplay seems to be the desperation of the people placing them to ensure they have a claim on the place and that it isn't tampered with.

It feels as if there are several groups actively just throwing as many identically described fixtures down in as many places as possible without regard to whether they'll be used or not, and keep a stockpile of resources to readily craft more to replace their "claim" if it's at all tampered with.

This feels like a pretty toxic mentality to play around, and the notion of "border markers" holds a similar issue in my mind. Can any settlement claim its borders much past its gates fairly, when those markers are placed in zones or areas filled with monsters who would probably take issue with those markers in their homes?

There seems to be a driving need in the playerbase to do away with wilderness, and see it all claimed or tamed in some fashion to fit their vision for the server instead of leaving room for ambiguity, or other player characters having different interpretations. I hope Arelith doesn't get paved over to put up a parking lot.

LASTLY, love the forum name! Can I bribe you with pizza?

I'm most easily bribed with a pizza that's light on meat, heavy on pineapple, and features some amount of nerds or sweet tarts sprinkled on top.

[Scylon]

I think this is the case already? It's supposed to be anyway - that after ten IRL days, if a bashed fixture isn't repaired it vanishes.

oh, well there you go. If that is the case people need to just start smashing on occasion and the issue will fix itself. Areas that are used or have sentimental value will get fixed, areas that are just wasted won't.

More often though, it plays out that no one uses these wilderness shrines or fixture camps, and instead they are just dropped around as if to "claim" an area in the name of a god or group. No one is using them as far as can be seen, there are no gatherings or group events held around them, and if anything is done with them they're immediately replaced with a new one with no RP or interaction to speak of. The only roleplay seems to be the desperation of the people placing them to ensure they have a claim on the place and that it isn't tampered with.

Just on that particular point, I don't personally see an issue there. EG, the little fort just outside cordor is an example. A group has planted a flag on it, meh. good for them. Good way to test if that is still relevant is to bash the stuff when passing through, if after a few days it doesn't get repaired, you are gold. same rule can be applied to lots of these little claims. I'd wager a good 90% of these will just decay as the original "claimants" are long gone.

[Edens_Fall]

Another player has informed me that the 24 hour rule doesn't apply to fixtures in public areas/zones, so I suppose this isn't a problem after all if we're permitted to freely grab as many offending fixtures and bin them as is needed.

In such cases, I often bash a few fixtures in passing. If, after a day or so, the fixtures are not repaired "ie no one is using them" I'll trash them or let the system remove them after a set time.

But yeah, feel free to clean areas up if you have a desire. The staff has been supportive of this in the past. Just be mindful of things still in use or of historical value.

What I hope to run into often would be something along the lines of, a wayward shrine or light camp that has visitors often who roleplay and do stuff at that site regularly.

More often though, it plays out that no one uses these wilderness shrines or fixture camps, and instead they are just dropped around as if to "claim" an area in the name of a god or group. No one is using them as far as can be seen, there are no gatherings or group events held around them, and if anything is done with them they're immediately replaced with a new one with no RP or interaction to speak of. The only roleplay seems to be the desperation of the people placing them to ensure they have a claim on the place and that it isn't tampered with.

It feels as if there are several groups actively just throwing as many identically described fixtures down in as many places as possible without regard to whether they'll be used or not, and keep a stockpile of resources to readily craft more to replace their "claim" if it's at all tampered with.

This feels like a pretty toxic mentality to play around, and the notion of "border markers" holds a similar issue in my mind. Can any settlement claim its borders much past its gates fairly, when those markers are placed in zones or areas filled with monsters who would probably take issue with those markers in their homes?

There seems to be a driving need in the playerbase to do away with wilderness, and see it all claimed or tamed in some fashion to fit their vision for the server instead of leaving room for ambiguity, or other player characters having different interpretations. I hope Arelith doesn't get paved over to put up a parking lot.

LASTLY, love the forum name! Can I bribe you with pizza?

I'm most easily bribed with a pizza that's light on meat, heavy on pineapple, and features some amount of nerds or sweet tarts sprinkled on top.

If you run into areas like that, best to just shoot the DMs a PM on the forums with your concern and move on. Some battles really are not worth the suffering involved in fighting them.

PS - Pizza bribe tastes duly noted.

[Dr. B]

Sounds like there needs to be wilderness fixture degradation system. Make it only apply after one has been bashed. If it is not fixed with in X time, it just get removed.

This would ensure places that mean something to players will be maintained and areas that are just an eyesore to the general populace will get disposed off.

Anything that has stood for 10 years or something that actually signify some event or something might qualify to become a permanent server feature. Especially if it like one of those tucked out of the way statues that barely anyone sees.

On a side note. It would be nice to to have something a little better then just bash an walk off. Like a desecration feature/ritual that'll leave rubble and fire at a location till the next reset showing an areas was raided.

I think this is the case already? It's supposed to be anyway - that after ten IRL days, if a bashed fixture isn't repaired it vanishes.

That's not the same. A player needs to bash the fixture, and as per the server rules, they need an IC reason when I think the real reasons people want obnoxious fixture gardens gone are OOC. There also doesn't seem to be much point in bashing them and letting them decay when you can just remove one every 48 hours.

I'm hearing little support from you and Spyre for a decay system and would like to understand why you're not in favor of it. It seems like the best overall solution.