Cost of Being Mundane

[Quidix]

Having played a proper mundane recently (ie no access to wands), it struck me how much more expensive it is in terms of consumables. The average cost for consumables is 4-5x higher for mundanes. Is this not an unnecessarily large tax on mundanes? I might find a tax of <2x “reasonable”. Here are the examples I can think of:

• Freedom are 6.4x more expensive vs wands (assuming herb potion 950 vs wand for 5,500 with 37 avg charges - SCROLL: could go down to 5.1x with 525 scribe cost and similar margin for caster)
• Negative energy protection is 3.4x more expensive vs wands (assuming herb potion 490 vs wand for 7,500 with 37 avg charges lasting 50% longer; drop version also exist, but typically sell for 200-300 on open market, and only lasts half as long, so works out as about the same cost - SCROLL: not competitive as costs 843gp per scroll and only CL5 ie short duration)
• Improved invisibility is 4.4x more expensive vs wands (assuming dust of disappearance 650 vs wand for 5,500 with 37 avg charges)
• Death ward are 7.4x more expensive vs wands (assuming potion 1,020 vs wand for 5,500 with 37 avg charges - SCROLL: could go down to 5.1x with 525 scribe cost and similar margin for caster)
• Barkskin is 4.0x more expensive vs wands (for equivalent +4 AC version, assuming spell book potions 590 vs wand for 5,500 with 37 avg charges; this also ignores how difficult it can be to pin down a supplier of such potions)
• Stoneskin is 4.7x more expensive vs wands (assuming scroll 705 vs wand for 5,500 with 37 avg charges; herb potion exists, but is difficult to make given fishing components, so will not be cheaper and hard to make in any serious among of quantity)
• Lesser spell breach is 4.7x more expensive vs wands (assuming scroll 705 vs wand for 5,500 with 37 avg charges)
• See invisibility is 5.1x more expensive vs wands (assuming scroll 151 vs wand for 1,100 with 37 avg charges)

The above also ignores the time to make herb potions and the weight (a material issue for dex mundanes).

[Amateur Hour]

When I have played a mundane, I take this as incentive to team up with non-mundanes who can hit me with their wards.

[Sincra]

What you've described is a cost for non-investment, I'd personally say a 2-3x is fine to reflect the investment of a class slot and skill points, but as you have rightfully pointed out the current values are above this.

I think Lore for scrolls should be looked at too for cost analysis for the listed items, given this is also a way to access items now for most mundanes.

[Tarkus the dog]

the idea is that you can get a stronger build at the cost of money and comfort, though depends on the build
but like hour mentioned if you combine that with those who can cast spells or use wands on you then you've got a strong pairing

[Hazard]

the idea is that you can get a stronger build at the cost of money and comfort, though depends on the build
but like hour mentioned if you combine that with those who can cast spells or use wands on you then you've got a strong pairing

^

[The Rambling Midget]

Yes, things cost more, but by eschewing class based access to magic items, you can potentially see a tremendous increase in maximum combat power, and game-breakingly so when you have a good magic user supporting you.

It's harder at low levels, if you're soloing, but once you hit epics, gold starts showering you from the sky whenever you walk outside, making the increased cost completely irrelevant. You'll also find that those characters which are built for more versatility will happily have your tanky DPS, and, if you're friendly to them, will even create or purchase the supplies you need, in order to keep you happy.

You have something others want. Leverage that.

[Subtext]

I think it's a fallacy to consider convenience and money as a justification for mechanical inferiority though that issue is hardly exclusive to NWN/Arelith and even popular MMOs suffer from that at times.

For balancing, a decision has to be made as to what to balance around on. PvP and PvE require different approaches so you can only feasibly choose one of them. That approach here leans towards PvP which will leave things naturally imbalanced for PvE and some classes will have an easier time solo'ing than others. In group PvE runs though pretty much any class will be able to shine. The only thing you can do then is trying to make the life a bit easier for those who have it harder in PvE by other means.

So no, I don't think a "money tax" is a particularly fair approach there especially when the difference between classes for solo PvE content is watching netflix on the side as a summoner and being short before cardiac arrest as a rogue.
Even relying on wands or scrolls - while cheaper than truly mundane consumables - is still a considerable investment both in terms of money and inventory space.
And carry weight for dex builds.

[-XXX-]

This is hardly a balance issue - clearly mundane builds are supposed to have access to these consumables, otherwise they wouldn't exist.

It's a commerce issue - mundane consumables being niche, more difficult to craft and overall more expensive when compared to an almost identical alternative means there's very little incentive to actually create and sell these items.

[Hazard]

There are plenty of dungeons you can go through on many mundane builds that are insanely profitable. Whatever your strenghts and weaknesses are, explore the module and try to find some places where you can go to drum up profits without needing to spend much (or anything, really). I've managed to find plenty, and finding them was half the fun.

I actually find it much easier to drum up millions on mundane builds than casters/summoners. Yes, you can have a more chill/easy time as a summoner, but it's also at the fraction of the speed, and that's not helpful when trying to make bank.

You could try to go for the epic loot RNG prize, and maybe make a decent sum. You could also spend hours/days without ever finding anything. I prefer to focus on more reliable methods, like scrolls, jewelry, heads, gems, etc. On average this helps me make far more gold in less time, without having to spend anything or rely on luck. ESPECIALLY good if you or another person have invested in some of the trade related skills like appraise/leadership.

[Svrtr]

Having started with battle cleric, leveled mundanes such as 25/5 and barb WM and DD WM and even DD LM, leveled pure casters, leveled combined caster/melee classes, and come full circle to melee shaman

Mundanes are by far the poorest of the bunch. There are no good dungeons you can reliably do that can net a meaningful income after the chest bashing nerf and after the leadership gold nerf. This is in large part due to the necessity of consumables, that often last a short time, and worse than that the need for stuff like bandages to not die. This has become worse a disparity with infinite cantrips with cure minor wounds (which its existence is fine, I love having it, but it highlights how painful it is to play mundanes).

The ideal mundane class to level is DD (which has jack for killing pressure but has regen and DR, but for power its on the lower end of mundnae classes), and ideal low caster martial is STRanger which isn't a mundane but has bloodlust, and also has enough skill points to not be left wanting for them and also to get a bit more OL or DT if they want to reduce the inventory load and economic strain for gear swapping builds to unlock chests (which still require massive investment) while ALSO having free access to divine wands that mundies cannot get unless they dip a UMD class, which lowers their overall strength on average for ideal builds.

Between FoM, NEP, and deathward along with general zoo and AC buffs, then throw on top bandages or potions that can meaningfully keep up in PvE? Especially on classes like barb which isn't an AC tank and whose regen, while nice, is low enough and late enough that it only softens the blow? Getting money on a solo mundane is eye bleedingly tedious at best, and truly with the increase in power of dungeons and spamming of breaches or dispels and effects that require FoM or NEP or mindblank to not be screwed by, really solo mundane is awful, and playing something with summons will even then likely clear the dungeon faster too even if the caster doesn't spam cantrips along with their PC summons since PC summons have innate regen and can even have more AC than a 2h barb at times. Even older dungeons are painful, as with the high AB of many enemies you should leave IE on as well, which further slows down your fighting.

Part of why the appeal of LM exists for those who aren't taking it for its languages and spell foci cookies is the QoL. Increasing the quality of CL of scrolls and wands, granting UMD, and offering a refund chance. The class is economic, and makes the consumables pain less painful, and in the face of all these factors economically stacked against mundanes I advise 21 fighter 5 WM 4 LM over 25/5

[Quidix]

This is about QoL, not balancing. I'd not suggest new magic access to mundane. As mentioned, I'm fine for there to some tax, but it should be in the 2x range. Reasonable.

If anything, what I'd suggest here is to make herbalist potions more competitive (eg by adjusting crafting cost or # potion output) and complementing it is some areas where hard-to-get versions exist (eg +4 barkskin, herb improved invis or lower cost alch version, non-fishing stoneskin). Look at the examples I provided and just tweak the values to make it 2x instead of 4-7x (this is why I provided the data, to make it practical).

Magic users get all the QoL and can still clear at high speeds. Let's be clear most builds are non-mundanes, and many of them are very powerful. Many of those "have it all" and are solo powerhouses, group powerhouses and have utility. This thread is not about that broader balance, but I'm unsure why mundanes should be more "forced" than others into a group playstyle.

What you've described is a cost for non-investment, I'd personally say a 2-3x is fine to reflect the investment of a class slot and skill points, but as you have rightfully pointed out the current values are above this.

I think Lore for scrolls should be looked at too for cost analysis for the listed items, given this is also a way to access items now for most mundanes.

Fair point - I've added scroll alternative in the relevant examples (freedom, death ward, NEP). It also highlights how the use case for herb potions is close to non-existent given that freedom and death ward scroll are a fair bit cheaper (but still 5x).

[The Rambling Midget]

Fair point - I've added scroll alternative in the relevant examples (freedom, death ward, NEP). It also highlights how the use case for herb potions is close to non-existent given that freedom and death ward scroll are a fair bit cheaper (but still 5x).

It's not just close. It is non-existent.

Let's say you want an Ultrasight Tinct so that you can use your Dust of Darkness without getting blinded. You have to make bait, which means fishing with bugs for probably at least 6 hours in order to work your way up to a decent size. Then you can start going after the type of fish needed for the crafting components, which is based on luck, so you have a pretty high chance of completely expending a large batch of bait before you get anything useful, and it also means that you have to get out onto the sea, because one of the rarer components comes from a fish that's only found in moderately deep waters. So, now you're putting together a sailing crew that's competent enough to both get there safely and understand what you're after, without getting sidetracked and ignoring your goals, so we're talking several hours to several days, depending on crew and non-sunken ship availability, alongside your own schedule limitations. For someone with a life, a job, and - gods forbid - a family, this endeavor could easily stretch across a month, to get three hours of Ultravision.

Alternatively, you could ask your buddy to roll up a mage with Brew Potion and access to the spell you want, and have them make you a bunch. Maybe 30 minutes for that.

Yeah, the Ultrasight Tinct will be usable in non-magic areas, but, in my experience, those comprise less than 1% of the module, and everyone else is at the same disadvantage.

Herbalism is a joke. If the products are going to be that difficult and agonizing to make, they should be far better than what a walking, talking magic vending machine can spit out.

[Paint]

Builds that don't get access to wands through UMD or a dip in a class that can use them definitely feel a lot more rough and tumble to play. Ironically, these are usually the builds that have the toughest gearing, because it's more difficult to hit your comfortable thresholds.

Grinding for gold at content that is acceptable for that character's level can often be a non-option because you simply burn too much money trying to make -any- money.

However.

A pure martial with the support of a caster for buffs is almost always going to perform exceptionally when compared to most gishes and traditional casters. You simply get out more on the top end. For awhile, mundane builds have been Arelith but 'hard mode,' in which if you manage to make it to 30 and gear, you can be almost oppressively strong towards a lot of other builds.

But even as I say that, I can't help but wonder about classes like Ranger and Paladin; two classes which get the benefits of being fairly competent martials while having access to spellbooks and divine wands, which cut on their consumable cost by a significant margin, and are two classes that I'd likely suggest over a 25 Fighter/5 Weaponmaster in a lot of cases.

For awhile, Paladin was at the top of the pile. Spellsword is pretty close, too, even if it does have a wicked achilles' heel.

All of this leads to the question:

Why would I play a truly mundane martial over one of these classes when they have objectively better quality of life, spend less money, and can perform at about the same level?

Edit:
A lot of this could be alleviated by simply changing the herbalism potions that create some of the more essential PVP and PVE buffs to either cost less crafting points to make or produce more in a single batch, effectively lowering the price per potion and allowing these potions to be sold more readily at agreeable prices, but you didn't hear that from me.

Edit 2:
Mage Armor and Shield scrolls are 50 coins each, easy to stock up on, and with shield lasting twice as long now, not a particularly cumbersome cost. The good barkskin might cost a lot more, but the cheap barkskin lasts an hour, gives one less AC, and is readily available from several vendors throughout the module. Similarly, cheap-o haste potions are effective in PVE, and I made a lot of use of them on my CoT.

You save the good barkskins and hastes for when you're anticipating getting into a tumble and use the cheap stuff for PVE. So on the point of barkskin and haste being too expensive for mundanes, I don't buy it.

[AstralUniverse]

Playing mundane character is very costly but it needs to be costly because some of these builds are ridiculously strong in pvp. Seems like a fair deal. I'm not going to say that leveling a mundane is *fun*, however.

[Svrtr]

Playing mundane character is very costly but it needs to be costly because some of these builds are ridiculously strong in pvp. Seems like a fair deal. I'm not going to say that leveling a mundane is *fun*, however.

Ill say, this may have been true once in the past, but in recent days the strength of a full buffed mundane will barely break even or be worse than deep pal or SS I'd even wager.

And comparing them at their full buffed best also too is much, because very rarely are they at that best. The far end of that bell curve exists, but is far more narrow to the rest, with a center and left grouping compared to the upper strength for lack of a better comparison. And once more, the chest bashing nerf hurt immensely and is rarely talked about, especially with many mundane builds having 4+INT but no innate or no wands without making the strength of their build worse to get UMD, the cost of them, etc etc.

All in all, the "They're stronger full buffed" feels immensely overstated, especially as powercreep continues with summons, spells, new classes, etc. And likewise, with SS and mrods those full buffs often vanish quick. Barb was likely once the scariest, but barb too has faced nerfs, and so saying "They're strong when full buffed" is a loaded statement that has aged poorly, getting full buffed is relatively uncommon realistically save for cases where there is a group with divine and arcane casters to juice them anyways, and solo is utterly and painfnully arduous beyond belief

[AstralUniverse]

Ill say, this may have been true once in the past, but in recent days the strength of a full buffed mundane will barely break even or be worse than deep pal or SS I'd even wager.

Economically speaking, deep pal is kind of mundane. The difference between deep pal and a div mundane build really comes into play mostly vs bosses or in pvp. Pal also doesnt get a lot of spells, so you dont really cut much costs on wands (except Freedom). Pal is about as painful to level (economically speaking) as any mundane build.

SS is overpowered still overpowered.

And comparing them at their full buffed best also too is much, because very rarely are they at that best. The far end of that bell curve exists, but is far more narrow to the rest, with a center and left grouping compared to the upper strength for lack of a better comparison. And once more, the chest bashing nerf hurt immensely and is rarely talked about, especially with many mundane builds having 4+INT but no innate or no wands without making the strength of their build worse to get UMD, the cost of them, etc etc.

All in all, the "They're stronger full buffed" feels immensely overstated, especially as powercreep continues with summons, spells, new classes, etc. And likewise, with SS and mrods those full buffs often vanish quick. Barb was likely once the scariest, but barb too has faced nerfs, and so saying "They're strong when full buffed" is a loaded statement that has aged poorly, getting full buffed is relatively uncommon realistically save for cases where there is a group with divine and arcane casters to juice them anyways, and solo is utterly and painfnully arduous beyond belief

I agree with you. We shouldnt compare them fully buffed.

I think a good rule of thumb would be to assume everyone is only wearing hour/level buffs when a spontaneous pvp hits, and in that scenario, the mundane character has a pretty good chance to end it in a couple of rounds. I think, if we compare on the assumption that everyone is fully warded, then mundane characters arent supposed to shine but they can still shine in party pvp even in that scenario. The only problem I have is that leveling mundanes isnt *fun* (except for people who are fully tied in a group, leveling and crafting together).

[MischeviousMeerkat]

On the inverse, I have never interacted with as many players as I have playing a cleric than I am currently playing a fighter/WM. Everything is more expensive but the players or the characters they play tend to be generous if you've something to offer. I know who makes repair kits, enchants, and who will appreciate a high str character that can hit big numbers... It's hard to put in numbers, but I actually had fun.

It's only absolutely miserable if you're trying to lone wolf it.

[Helsing]

Playing mundane character is very costly but it needs to be costly because some of these builds are ridiculously strong in pvp. Seems like a fair deal. I'm not going to say that leveling a mundane is *fun*, however.

Is everybod playing a mundane for the purpose of PvP? I don't think so, some ppls just wanna play and enjoy a non-caster class and don't care about politics and pvp. But the experience is not good.

Therefore I don't think playing mundane NEEDS to be costly. The logic that "hey they are strong in PvP so they have to be costly" makes no sense, a lot of us don't involve in pvp and just wanna enjoy our character.

[Helsing]

Playing mundane character is very costly but it needs to be costly because some of these builds are ridiculously strong in pvp. Seems like a fair deal. I'm not going to say that leveling a mundane is *fun*, however.

Ill say, this may have been true once in the past, but in recent days the strength of a full buffed mundane will barely break even or be worse than deep pal or SS I'd even wager.

And comparing them at their full buffed best also too is much, because very rarely are they at that best. The far end of that bell curve exists, but is far more narrow to the rest, with a center and left grouping compared to the upper strength for lack of a better comparison. And once more, the chest bashing nerf hurt immensely and is rarely talked about, especially with many mundane builds having 4+INT but no innate or no wands without making the strength of their build worse to get UMD, the cost of them, etc etc.

All in all, the "They're stronger full buffed" feels immensely overstated, especially as powercreep continues with summons, spells, new classes, etc. And likewise, with SS and mrods those full buffs often vanish quick. Barb was likely once the scariest, but barb too has faced nerfs, and so saying "They're strong when full buffed" is a loaded statement that has aged poorly, getting full buffed is relatively uncommon realistically save for cases where there is a group with divine and arcane casters to juice them anyways, and solo is utterly and painfnully arduous beyond belief

Agreed, I often see disgussion like "pal's AC is so high blah blah" The fact is they include buffs like Haste and even Shadow Shield. I mean for how many hours in your game play they are in such fully-buffed state? I think in most period of your dungeon crawl, they don't have Haste on, not to mention buffs like Magic Vestment and Shadow Shield. Saying they're stronger full buffed is overstated to me.

[Quidix]

I don't agree that mundanes are materially stronger these days. Paladins, spellswords and clerics (base, warpriest, seeker) are immensely strong in PvE and PvP and have great QoL. Any build with a 3 paladin dip for DM/DS and saves, also get the nice cookie of accessing wands and avoiding this issue.

But again, that's not the point of the discussion. Even if it was true, the right thing to do would be to fix the balance and make QoL more similar (some difference is okay).

----------

Economically speaking, deep pal is kind of mundane.

No. Paladins can access wands, even if it's just a 3 dip. The topic of this thread is that it's indeed 4-6x more expensive for the 'proper mundane'.

For the purposes of this discussion: mundandes = cannot use wands.

[AstralUniverse]

For the purposes of this discussion: mundandes = cannot use wands.

What builds are we even talking about at this point? fighter/wm, barb/fighter/wm, other big damage critlers.... I dont want to see any of those buffed. I agree their QoL is in the dumpster but again, that's what you pay for that kind of raw stats. I still hold the opinion that spellsword is overpowered. Warpriest might also be, not sure.

Is everybod playing a mundane for the purpose of PvP? I don't think so, some ppls just wanna play and enjoy a non-caster class and don't care about politics and pvp. But the experience is not good.

Yeah I'd agree that the experience is not good. I am personally not a fan. But please understand that most balance is done around pvp because that's there balance is the most delicate and most impacting for players, even if it's like 1% of their time online, or less. We've always balanced around pvp because when we havent, things were bad. This is how it is.

[Edens_Fall]

The simple answer to this issue . . . Play Paladin.

The long answer? Play Paladin because they are still the top of the food chain. I mean, there is a reason most PCs on the surface wear the Radiant Heart ring and it's not for the news letter.

[AstralUniverse]

Yeah the answer to not wanting to summon conduit seems to be Paladin, Warpriest, Spellsword and blaster warlock.

I mean, there is a reason most PCs on the surface wear the Radiant Heart ring and it's not for the news letter.

Because it's also free exp and gold and a decent end game ring for pretty much all none evil nobles and clerics, paladins, knights and divine champions.

[Algol]

Another economic hurdle on being a mundane is cost of gear. A caster can do 1-30 completely naked, and I doubt many caster characters bother buying/ crafting non end game items. A mundane needs to buy level appropriate items (which are usually more expensive than their caster counterparts) to do content a caster can do easily without spending anything.

[-XXX-]

I mean, there is a reason most PCs on the surface wear the Radiant Heart ring and it's not for the news letter.

Because it's also free exp and gold and a decent end game ring for pretty much all none evil nobles and clerics, paladins, knights and divine champions.

In exchange for these clear mechanical and QoL benefits it also shoehorns players into a very specific style of RP. This creates a homogenous character population on the surface that mostly exists only to dogpile and smother everything that deviates from it.

TBH, I'd consider this to be 2 arguments for the removal of the Radiant writ giver (if not the Radiant Heart itself) right off the bat.
Wouldn't really address the mundane consumable woes however - only pull the paladins down to their level.

Another economic hurdle on being a mundane is cost of gear. A caster can do 1-30 completely naked, and I doubt many caster characters bother buying/ crafting non end game items. A mundane needs to buy level appropriate items (which are usually more expensive than their caster counterparts) to do content a caster can do easily without spending anything.

As Tarkus already pointed out, that's the price they pay for increased PvP power, but that's another topic altogether. The current problem is with mundanes struggling to purchase optimized gear for their build because they're constantly forced to spend all their coin on consumables.