Cost of Being Mundane

[-XXX-]

For a very long time Mithril gear has been regarded as the baseline with Adamantine gear being the BiS lvl30 endgame stuff.
The difference here is like 2-3 AC, which while still a big deal in PvP is not such a game changnger in PvE.
The crafting recepies seem to have been deigned around that.

Stuff's changed with the advent of Dragonbone (Bulwark) Plate and Serpent's Woe Aegis*, because suddenly a sword and shield user with mithril gear has 5 less AC than they could have with the BiS gear, which is fealt everywhere they go and a general feel bad.

Seeing how Adamantine Full Plate and Tower Shield are no longer the endgame BiS items they used to be, their recepies could use a review. Using 7 Adamantine ingots for something that merely serves as a stepping stone seems a bit excessive.

Alternatively, bumping Mithril armor pieces to +3 AC could also be an interesting solution, seeing how these are not further used in recepies (unlike Adamantine armor). This would also strongly increase the marketability of these items, which is something I believe Irongron wanted.


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*a rather needless display of power creep, but that's just my opinion.

[Xerah]

Addy gear is not expensive anymore, and you only need to buy it once.

Spell components are forever. I have made over 20 million gold selling spell components on one of my characters. It's just greenstone/malachite, coal and sand. The bothersome part is the time, but you can easily craft up massive amounts of this stuff.

Your characters are years old, of course they made a lot on that. Additionally, the cost of components has dropped 50% from when you started until now.

Still making huge profit off of components now, and selling them for 700 where I used to sell them for 800 each. That's not a 50% drop. My characters are years old and my characters are brand new. I play many characters. The age of my character does not at all change the amount of profit I can gain per time invested. Totally irrelevant detail when discussing gold earned per time invested.

Huh? You said “I made 20 million selling components on one of my characters”. That has nothing to do with gold per time investment. Long term character will make more than new characters. Nothing crazy about that.

You can find components for 500 a lot of times.

[Hazard]

Your characters are years old, of course they made a lot on that. Additionally, the cost of components has dropped 50% from when you started until now.

Still making huge profit off of components now, and selling them for 700 where I used to sell them for 800 each. That's not a 50% drop. My characters are years old and my characters are brand new. I play many characters. The age of my character does not at all change the amount of profit I can gain per time invested. Totally irrelevant detail when discussing gold earned per time invested.

Huh? You said “I made 20 million selling components on one of my characters”. That has nothing to do with gold per time investment. Long term character will make more than new characters. Nothing crazy about that.

You can find components for 500 a lot of times.

I said a lot more than just that. Please read through the posts instead of cherry picking through them.
If you need help making gold, you're welcome to PM for advice like others have.

"... zip through a dungeon on my mundane without needing to use a single consumable, and hang around until I get bored or the doom ost ends, then I go back to town and sell my crap for like 400k-600k after a chill gold gathering sesh."

"Doing that on a non-mundane requires constant stops to rest, chugging alcohol whenever your spells start wearing off/get dispelled, and with casters/summoners, you're going to get through that dungeon once in the time a 25/5 can get through it 10+ times."

"I promise people there are good dungeons you can do as a mundane without spending a coin, and bringing in great profits."

"You don't always need to go for the highest level best gear drop rng dungeon. You can just find a place that has a lot of something you can profit from like lots of jewelry, heads, scrolls. Even without leadership and appraise these rake in the profits like crazy, and if you can afford those skills or hang onto your stuff until you find someone with those skills even better."

"Even crappy builds that I think are close to being non-viable in pvp and in need of severe buffs (deep rogue) can be incredibly profitable. You can sneak through most places and pick up treasures."

"Since you have no spellslots, you can pretty comfortable just carry around some appraise/leadership gear for selling up."

"You don't gotta do runics to make crazy profits, though. That's the thing. I don't bother, not just on mundanes but on any character."

"I find it far more profitable for time invested to go clear less difficult dungeons."

"Scrolls, jewelry, heads, gems, a few chests here and there will always bring my character a lot of wealth without a lot (or any cost), where as if I did go for the runic dungeons then yes, everything you said is spot on, but the problem is even after getting to the end I might walk away empty handed. It's a gamble."

My characters that are months and weeks old also all have hit million + gold easily. Especially mundanes. Has nothing to do with character age. You can get hundreds of thousands of gold from a quick session without ever stepping foot into a runic dungeon, and mundanes are especially good for this kind of playstyle because they do not have spells that will expire or be dispelled and do not need to worry about rest meter and chugging alcohol or returning to safe places to do that, cutting down on a lot of travel time.

[Helsing]

"Doing that on a non-mundane requires constant stops to rest, chugging alcohol whenever your spells start wearing off/get dispelled, and with casters/summoners, you're going to get through that dungeon once in the time a 25/5 can get through it 10+ times."

Hahahahahahahahahahaha, 10+ times, you really know the art of overstating

[Hazard]

"Doing that on a non-mundane requires constant stops to rest, chugging alcohol whenever your spells start wearing off/get dispelled, and with casters/summoners, you're going to get through that dungeon once in the time a 25/5 can get through it 10+ times."

Hahahahahahahahahahaha, 10+ times, you really know the art of overstating

That's a long laugh. Is it echoing through your empty bank account because you'd rather argue against advice than consider taking it/changing your playstyle to overcome an obstacle in game?

There's a reason my mundanes aren't struggling to earn all their equipment very quickly, and I'm trying to help others understand those reasons. If you'd like to keep struggling, that's entirely your prerogative.

[Kalthariam]

Honestly I'm just not following this mundane cost thing.

My level 30 fighter basically uses 2x bull strength 2x bears endurance, 2x cats grace, 1x owls wisdom, 1x mage armor scroll, 1x barkskin potion in 99.9% of situations they are in.

Which means they spend roughly about 500 gold when going out to do things. All of these buffs last long enough to do basically anything except for exceptionally stupid long dungeons.

I've never once come back from an adventure where I didn't make a minimum of about 8,000 gold solo just wandering around beating stuff up.

I'm just not understanding where these costs people are coming up with are coming from, most of the time these things are not needed, and the few places they are needed usually you'd be going with a group anyways, and hopefully someone has spells to protect the party from negative effects no?

[Xerah]

I said a lot more than just that. Please read through the posts instead of cherry picking through them.
If you need help making gold, you're welcome to PM for advice like others

Good job, I’ll give you the condensing award for the month.

I don’t need advice on making coin, but it’s incredibly ignorant to think if people played just like you their problems would be solved when they can’t invest the same amount of time, knowledge or skill as you do. This is a new player (and lesser extend new character problem)

Anyone who says that mundanes are easier to gear are frankly misrepresenting things for an unknown reasons. When I play a mundane, it’s mostly okay and I can slowly gear up, but when I play a caster I can easily not spend anything until I spend 200-300k on a final piece (which I have just done on my warlock). Mundanes? Not a chance. The fact that people are pushing back on this idea is so weird.

There shouldn’t be this kind of difference but getting to a point where there isn’t is not an easy thing to achieve.

[Hazard]

I said a lot more than just that. Please read through the posts instead of cherry picking through them.
If you need help making gold, you're welcome to PM for advice like others

... it’s incredibly ignorant to think if people played just like you their problems would be solved when they can’t invest the same amount of time, knowledge or skill as you do. This is a new player (and lesser extend new character problem)

Anyone who says that mundanes are easier to gear are frankly misrepresenting things for an unknown reasons.

It would take a few hours per weak at best. 3-4 hours over a week max I do not think is asking too much, considering weekends.
The knowledge will be willingly shared (and has been, and is working for those I've told. Thanks), and the 'skill', there is very little skill involved in this game or the things being suggested to overcome the obstacles presented. Requires far less skill than wasting/gambling your time away on runic dungeons, when you could instead make a more reliable income with less time and effort invested.

I don't appreciate being called ignorant, or having it be implied that I am misrepresenting things for unknown reasons. I find your behaviour entirely inappropriate for someone who is supposed to be a moderator on these forums, not a troll.

[Nobs]

On my last wizard i spend 0 gold on gear , ok well at level 6 i spend gold for +1 int on all my gear that lasted me till level 30

On my first barbarian i made last year i spend all the gold for heal kits and gear just so i would be able to compleet writs.

Making gold is not hard in this game when your toon is set up a bit (every one can go for a walk about to make some money)
But yeah playing a caster is just putting your feet up and follow what ever summon wack though every thing and you wil be rolling in gold right of the get go.
Where as on your mundane you wil need to actualy gear up in stages or wait for a party to go to places you need to go to.

[-XXX-]

The problem with gear is that mundanes are both more gear dependent but have a much higher power level cap because of it. Sure, a spellcaster doesn't need to invest much in their gear, but at the same time there's very little upside for them getting runed BiS gear, whereas a mundane build can go super saiyan that way.

Anyone who says that mundanes are easier to gear are frankly misrepresenting things for an unknown reasons. When I play a mundane, it’s mostly okay and I can slowly gear up, but when I play a caster I can easily not spend anything until I spend 200-300k on a final piece (which I have just done on my warlock).

Warlocks are weird in that they are the quintessential "I get to have my cake and eat it too" class - they get all the upsides of being an infini caster with no downsides. Very much like all summoner spellcasters (which warlocks are) they do not need good gear, but unlike most traditional spellcaster classes their power level cap is much higher once they get it.

TBH, I think that Eldritch Armor is a mistake and should be dele~ *hems* reviewed.

[Baseili]

To cut through the various ancedotal evidences and bickering, I am curious as to the perceived value of such things like class investment or skill investment? Is taking a class to access a wand type more than say taking a class to access tumble and UMD?

[chris a gogo]

Entirely depends on the build your making, personally i favor rogue over bard unless im adding it to a paladin then you don't need umd for wands just race locked weapons/gear.
Charisma based i go bard
Anything else rogue.

[Svrtr]

The problem with gear is that mundanes are both more gear dependent but have a much higher power level cap because of it. Sure, a spellcaster doesn't need to invest much in their gear, but at the same time there's very little upside for them getting runed BiS gear, whereas a mundane build can go super saiyan that way.

Anyone who says that mundanes are easier to gear are frankly misrepresenting things for an unknown reasons. When I play a mundane, it’s mostly okay and I can slowly gear up, but when I play a caster I can easily not spend anything until I spend 200-300k on a final piece (which I have just done on my warlock).

Warlocks are weird in that they are the quintessential "I get to have my cake and eat it too" class - they get all the upsides of being an infini caster with no downsides. Very much like all summoner spellcasters (which warlocks are) they do not need good gear, but unlike most traditional spellcaster classes their power level cap is much higher once they get it.

TBH, I think that Eldritch Armor is a mistake and should be dele~ *hems* reviewed.

Even if we blanket accept the difference of having a higher power curve, it has only shrunk. The power curve came about and to the fore with strength when dex lost ubab and div rogue while time stop allowed no damage and so greedy low con builds that were unhittable in melee could thrive but this is no longer the case. Likewise the immense tax versus the gain has only shrunk in days where paladin and especially now spellswrod (which has a pixie to boot) exists

Likewise the ability for mundanes to gain money has only shrunk as now chest bashing and the inability to even afford ol and Dt gear sets early on and not enough skill points or rarity of classes to take them and then a notably large amount of builds who can't use wands without taking a umd class which then damages this hypothetical higher power curve means that it is damaged. Likewise irongron himself has made numerous talks about shrinking the economy as enemies drop less gold or jewelry in places like Kurgan compared to what they used to drop before.even more notably the head gold nerf hurt extremely hard, and the builds that suffer most from these are the ones who have a tax to even do mid level writs and who can often end up negative in gold when factoring healing at times.

Above all I believe this higher power curve is diminishes and not as high as spoken, not when people can play spellsword or warpriest, and not while 61 passive ac invokers exist

On top, warlock is a fine class. It's comfort to play doesn't equate it's strength and it's solidly B tier but very very comfortable. It melts in 1v1 pvp but is amazing with it's blast. It has to specialize and lastly eldritch armor is an atrociously bad feat. Probably one of the worst warlock feats. It only marginally aids melee lock by being able to use it's touch attacks blast without turning off improved expertise but by taking it you now have a stat tax with int and feat tax with improved expertise only to use the warlock plate which is worse than warlock chain, and melee lock itself is already agreed to be by far the worst warlock with even caster being better a la feylock.

[-XXX-]

STR basted meta still hugely benefits from runes - it's possible to casually 2 stat +1 UNI one's gear, which means STR builds can retain 5% fail rate vs. ALL DC based abilities/spells while having large enough hp pool to comfortably contain direct damage combos.
Finally and most importantly - they are always one lucky dice roll streak away from deleteing virtually anything that's not crit immune - that's why people are still willing to go along with all the tediums described in this thread.

Yes, the newer classes are powerful, flexible, fairly self-reliant, low maintenance, high QoL. They offer hands down vastly superior PvE experience compared to most mundane builds. But none of them can match the sheer DPS potential of something like a two-hander STR WM, which would still make those a superior choice for PvP.

[Svrtr]

STR basted meta still hugely benefits from runes - it's possible to casually 2 stat +1 UNI one's gear, which means STR builds can retain 5% fail rate vs. ALL DC based abilities/spells while having large enough hp pool to comfortably contain direct damage combos.
Finally and most importantly - they are always one lucky dice roll streak away from deleteing virtually anything that's not crit immune - that's why people are still willing to go along with all the tediums described in this thread.

Yes, the newer classes are powerful, flexible, fairly self-reliant, low maintenance, high QoL. They offer hands down vastly superior PvE experience compared to most mundane builds. But none of them can match the sheer DPS potential of something like a two-hander STR WM, which would still make those a superior choice for PvP.

Except SS still can and can exceed it, on top of having mords and timestop. Pal gets great damage, since it too uses the knight commander saber and is an 18-20 x2 weapon on top of having CHA damage, 2 damage from oath, and other such bonuses with dispel on hit. Both of them can perform as well and often better, while also having an easier life and more QoL. Not to mention seeing some SSs with x3 weapons crit for 250 damage on the higher end bereft of enemies having 50% vulnerabiltiy to cold such as in RDI.

Crits as a whole? I agree, they are a mundanes greatest tool, and they're utterly random and I dislike it, but when WM is arguably the only PrC that can compete with virtually any other non mundane build, it says a lot, and when we see that too getting less damage and AC and QoL than other classes who get imbue armor, weapon, pixie, mords, time stop, while also being able to get regen and on hit HP restore for massive QoL? Or now infinite healing cantrips? Yea, mundanes, especially non WM mundanes, are just unfun to play and increasingly lose their edge and gain little in return

[Kalthariam]

What in the world is everyone's definition of doing functional anyways?

I feel like we're all comparing things based off different barometers of what we consider to be "Good" and "Bad"

What is even the goal of this feedback? What is the solutions? People are arguing over whether or not Mundane classes are fine or not, but it feels like people are just yelling past each other trying to push their own point of view as the only thing that's right.

Is being able to constantly solo around level 20 dungeons as a level 30 Mundane with minimal consumables considered "Good" or "Not enough"

We've had several pages of people going back and forth about different money making strategies, and how mundane are screwed in consumables, and the gear they buy, to casters needing spell components and sequencers if they conjure, ect, ect.

So instead of debating for a half dozen more pages on if our opinion is the correct opinion, what solutions would people be wanting to address their grievances?

[Baseili]

Well it seems the most expedient solution for the various potions is to double the output, with maybe black warding and freedom being bumped up to 6 which should bring them roughly into the x2-3 cost window.

The fishing potions need to have the rare parts replaced, lumpfish fluid/luminous scales/ammonite shell, with items that are more reliably sourced.

Brewed potions simply need their production costs reduced and dust of disappearance needs its crafting points cut down to 20 or 30 to bring it in line.

That of course is if the x2-3 is desired or necessary, given the sheer convenience of a wand is more than enough for 15 points in UMD and the fact the skill is often bundled with another highly prized skill reduces the value of taking up a class to obtain it.

[Helsing]

On my last wizard i spend 0 gold on gear , ok well at level 6 i spend gold for +1 int on all my gear that lasted me till level 30

On my first barbarian i made last year i spend all the gold for heal kits and gear just so i would be able to compleet writs.

Making gold is not hard in this game when your toon is set up a bit (every one can go for a walk about to make some money)
But yeah playing a caster is just putting your feet up and follow what ever summon wack though every thing and you wil be rolling in gold right of the get go.
Where as on your mundane you wil need to actualy gear up in stages or wait for a party to go to places you need to go to.

My experience with my Favoured Soul is pretty similar, all my equipments are bronze and my AB/AC/Damage is still very good due to my buffs and I also have two Conduit helps me with dungeons, zero investment in gears and I'm now lvl 27 with ease. I can easily reach stats soft cap with Spell Focus Trans and the teleport is more QoL for me to fast travel to farm more dungeons.

I couldn't imagine a mundane can do dungones with 10+ times efficiency with similar gears, not even close.

I think there shall be more cast XX/per day gears added to Loot Matrix to help mundane, and this won't touch balance with PvP, just more QoL.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

What in the world is everyone's definition of doing functional anyways?

I feel like we're all comparing things based off different barometers of what we consider to be "Good" and "Bad"

What is even the goal of this feedback? What is the solutions? People are arguing over whether or not Mundane classes are fine or not, but it feels like people are just yelling past each other trying to push their own point of view as the only thing that's right.

Is being able to constantly solo around level 20 dungeons as a level 30 Mundane with minimal consumables considered "Good" or "Not enough"

We've had several pages of people going back and forth about different money making strategies, and how mundane are screwed in consumables, and the gear they buy, to casters needing spell components and sequencers if they conjure, ect, ect.

So instead of debating for a half dozen more pages on if our opinion is the correct opinion, what solutions would people be wanting to address their grievances?

Boo, this isn't a place for rational conversations. For shame!

[Tarkus the dog]

perhaps just accepting that the cost is fine, and moving on with your life

[Baseili]

Counter offer, we raise the production cost of wands by 4 and narrow the gap that way.

[Hazard]

Counter offer, we raise the production cost of wands by 4 and narrow the gap that way.

Wouldn't that just make the wands even more expensive for mundanes?

[Baseili]

If they're using wands already, sure, but for those who are stuck to potions it'd simply be closing the gap of costs from another direction. People tend to work from their own experiences only as is clearly seen from the replies, so why not give everyone a little taste of the other side? I have a feeling the disparity will be more easily recognised when everyone is paying 20k+ for their wands.

[Kalthariam]

That'd just kill the wand market. Wands are rarely solid often at any reasonable amount of profit, most times your lucky if your wands sell for 10% over the creation cost.

Making wands is already relatively expensive and requires you to spend a feat to be able to do.

don't need to spend a feat to buy potions from a vendor.

[AllPizzasArePersonal]

STR basted meta still hugely benefits from runes - it's possible to casually 2 stat +1 UNI one's gear, which means STR builds can retain 5% fail rate vs. ALL DC based abilities/spells

Is that true? A fighter/WM can net out something like...

6 (pre-epic will) + 5 (epic will) + 10 uni save (armor/shield/helm/ring/ring/amulet/boots/gloves/belt/cloak) +2 from wisdom (-1 base wisdom modifier + 2 pot + 1 skleen) = 23 will.

Typically, 25/5 doesn't take iron will, but let's say you cram that in there too (maybe at the cost of toughness) to get yourself up to 25 will. Against spells, you'll also have a +4 PfA and 16 base spellcraft points and a 14 base int, you can buff yourself up to an extra +8 to will, so you're capping out at a 33 will save.

A mage can threaten a 38/39 will save from a level 9 spell, so we're in more the 20-25 percent range (assuming you took iron will, which you didn't).

Unless I'm missing something, no, a mundane on a non-will save progression doesn't casually sit at 5% fail rate against all spells. The reflex situation will be in a worse state (less PfA protection, capped out at +1 from dex, assuming iron will is a stretch but assuming a reflex feat is not reasonable).