Class Armors That Are Bad For Their Class

[Svrtr]

So, in this case, Ill put emphasis on two in particular.

One - The Second Skin: This gives +3 to all physical stats and 5% DI vs only slashing. Due to druid's merging of items and combined with them nigh universally taking ESF trans (which allows +11 to physical stats via zoo buffs and AoV), the +3 often becomes wasted/overkill. Likewise, DI is a well loved stats on things such as druid, and so gaining only 5% hurts immensely, and means that the armor is all in all one of the far lower end choices of armor for druids vs stuff that give more beneficial stats or DI or skills.

Having the armor gives 5% universal DI and perhaps something else seems nice as well, but as is it is not a good choice.


Two - Rogue Leathers: The rogue leathers are as the name says, leather armor, which is 2 base AC and 6 max dex mod. If we assume a rogue with 15 dex mod at cap (which tends to be roughly standard), that would be 6 dex applied and 9 not applied. If we assume a standardized 24 rogue 6 fighter, they can apply at most 6 of their AC for 24/4 for 6 from lightly armored. That is 3 wasted. If it was changed to padded armor, which is 1 base and 8 dex, they would net 3 AC but still be wasting one. For this, rogue leathers being leather armor makes it too one of the worse options for rogues save for gear swapping for rogue's cunning, which could be argued to in part feed to bard being at times a better skill monkey.

For this, changing it to cloth or at least padded could be a nice option to add our dex rogue boys who suffer currently

[Helsing]

What about the Paladin light armour Gambeson of the Holy Squire, does anyone ever use it?

[Kuma]

What about the Paladin light armour Gambeson of the Holy Squire, does anyone ever use it?

ironically it's quite good for other classes that can umd it; i considered it on my warlock in favour of the barb loincloth

re: rogue leathers i 100% agree, it seems counterintuitive to the whole dex part of a rogue's kit. should probably be cloth

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I think the rogue equipment/ac was balanced around having dex mod 14 human 24/6 intentionally in a way that when you pushed past that dex amount you didn't really have any ac gains if you went with lighter/no armor.

leather base 2 + 12 max dex/dodge (max dex 6 leather and rogue 24 for another 6) = 14. the same you would get if you went some shirt.

But wait, you managed to push to max dex 15 on non human? thats ok because we made rogue leathers plus 4 armor so that if you went plus 3 padded armor, you would still be the same ac.

To my understanding this was done intentionally, this was also a long time ago.

[Svrtr]

I think the rogue equipment/ac was balanced around having dex mod 14 human 24/6 intentionally in a way that when you pushed past that dex amount you didn't really have any ac gains if you went with lighter/no armor.

leather base 2 + 12 max dex/dodge (max dex 6 leather and rogue 24 for another 6) = 14. the same you would get if you went some shirt.

But wait, you managed to push to max dex 15 on non human? thats ok because we made rogue leathers plus 4 armor so that if you went plus 3 padded armor, you would still be the same ac.

To my understanding this was done intentionally, this was also a long time ago.

In this case even if you had 38 dex mod, that means 2 of your dex AC is wasted. If you got an equivalent padded leather armor with 4 AC you'd have

1 base + 8 dex + 4 armor mod bonus + 6 lightly armored = 19 AC

If you got cloth armor such as the SD armor or ranger armor with +3 armor mod you'd get 15 dex mod + 4 bonus for 19, exept this armor bonus is better too as it doesn't get lost from flatfoot with uncanndy dodge

For rogue leathers?

2 base + 4 armor + 6 dex + 6 lightly armored = 16 AC

So you're down AC vs the other equivalents for 14 dex mod. 2 base + 6 dex + 6 lightly armored but 6 is subject to flatfoot vs 14 dex mod in cloth that isn't lost when flatfooted.

Likewise this is for 14 dex mod. Any higher and that "equivalence" in which leathers is worse and the disparity is worse. So while the AC is the same, you still have 2 dex mod wasted and overall worse AC because of it being dodge

[AstralUniverse]

I must agree on Rogue Leathers for sure.

Armor of the Wilds is a much better armor for a rogue. Not only it gives 1 more ac but it also gives 5 hide/move. The only advantage of Rogue Leathers is that it covers the 26 sr you normally get from the helmet slot so it frees the helmet slot but 1) you still get more ac from armor of the wilds so it's objectively better for a rogue. 2) you can create yourself item sets with -loadoutfit and if you're not lazy and you practice that (along with all the subsequent tedious inventory management) you can just wear sr helmet on an appropriate set. There's really no excuse to use rogue leathers over armor of the wilds in any scenario I can think of there for.


Another useless armor is Songsword's Guard. This armor was created before Battlebard Tabard and is entirely obsolete at the presence of it, as they result with the same stats, except the latter only requires you to gear dex to 14 rather than 18. That's, in some people's mind including mine, basically +4 virtual dex on the battlebard tabard compared to the Songsword's Guard in regards to gear economy. Once more, I cannot come up with a single scenario where this is better utilized than Battlebard Tabard.

I also made a small list of armors who should be MUCH easier to make in terms of their DC, CP and ingredients, than they are right now, respectively:

Northman's Armor (half plate)
Guardman's Armor (half plate)
Adventurer Armor (half plate)
Templar Armor (half plate)
Impermissicon's Shard (chain shirt)

[Ebonstar]

I would agree that Second Skin needs a tiny boost, perhaps a SR 14 or a non deflection AC boost of 2 or 3

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I think the rogue equipment/ac was balanced around having dex mod 14 human 24/6 intentionally in a way that when you pushed past that dex amount you didn't really have any ac gains if you went with lighter/no armor.

leather base 2 + 12 max dex/dodge (max dex 6 leather and rogue 24 for another 6) = 14. the same you would get if you went some shirt.

But wait, you managed to push to max dex 15 on non human? thats ok because we made rogue leathers plus 4 armor so that if you went plus 3 padded armor, you would still be the same ac.

To my understanding this was done intentionally, this was also a long time ago.

In this case even if you had 38 dex mod, that means 2 of your dex AC is wasted. If you got an equivalent padded leather armor with 4 AC you'd have

1 base + 8 dex + 4 armor mod bonus + 6 lightly armored = 19 AC

If you got cloth armor such as the SD armor or ranger armor with +3 armor mod you'd get 15 dex mod + 4 bonus for 19, exept this armor bonus is better too as it doesn't get lost from flatfoot with uncanndy dodge

For rogue leathers?

2 base + 4 armor + 6 dex + 6 lightly armored = 16 AC

So you're down AC vs the other equivalents for 14 dex mod. 2 base + 6 dex + 6 lightly armored but 6 is subject to flatfoot vs 14 dex mod in cloth that isn't lost when flatfooted.

Likewise this is for 14 dex mod. Any higher and that "equivalence" in which leathers is worse and the disparity is worse. So while the AC is the same, you still have 2 dex mod wasted and overall worse AC because of it being dodge

TBH with dex meta having nerfs over time and str having more equipment given to it (plus 4 fullplate and aeigis shields) I really would not mind seeing rogue armor get tweaked to be a little better. I they div dip with e-dodge they still only get half their divine shield ac.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I would agree that Second Skin needs a tiny boost, perhaps a SR 14 or a non deflection AC boost of 2 or 3

It's my understanding that all ac types get converted to deflection when merging equipment. So this would provide no additional ac.

SR 14 is also like, completely useless?

[Ebonstar]

I would agree that Second Skin needs a tiny boost, perhaps a SR 14 or a non deflection AC boost of 2 or 3

It's my understanding that all ac types get converted to deflection when merging equipment. So this would provide no additional ac.

SR 14 is also like, completely useless?

actually im playing a druid wearing this right now and the only time you would need the tiny tweaks I mentioned is for when you are not shifted.

[Alyxnia]

The Paladin chain shirt sucks as a class armor.

[Captain_Siix]

One - The Second Skin: This gives +3 to all physical stats and 5% DI vs only slashing. Due to druid's merging of items and combined with them nigh universally taking ESF trans (which allows +11 to physical stats via zoo buffs and AoV), the +3 often becomes wasted/overkill. Likewise, DI is a well loved stats on things such as druid, and so gaining only 5% hurts immensely, and means that the armor is all in all one of the far lower end choices of armor for druids vs stuff that give more beneficial stats or DI or skills.

Having the armor gives 5% universal DI and perhaps something else seems nice as well, but as is it is not a good choice.

So while this armour is terrible for druid in epics its fantastic pre epics. The recipe is expensive so perhaps a cost reduction would make it enticing. Lesser Second skin is laughable since you effectively get +1 to str con and dex since you'll likely have +1 gear.

Shifters have to be noted here as well because all 4 of them are probably using it to get to +8 on physical stats.

[AstralUniverse]

Shifters have to be noted here as well because all 4 of them are probably using it to get to +8 on physical stats.

Shifters which are plant shapers do not use this.

Shifter who are not plant shapers dont belong in a balance discussion.

[Waldo52]

I'm going to focus on rogues because that's what I do.

Rogue leathers are still pretty good. The benefits for a disguise artist/trapper are there, and granting the SR 26 is useful because it frees up a SR item slot. However, if potions of Rogue's Cunning exist, I take back my statement and they're awful.

I do think increasing the AC by one on this set to compete with the above mentioned ranger shirt is a good idea. I also think granting a discipline bonus on gear intended for rogues and other dexterity based combat characters is a good idea, because we know the end game for us consists of getting runed gear and slapping on +2 discipline at a basin 10 or 11 times, maybe 12 if we alternate our offhand weapon for a shield. It would be beneficial to receive this kind of support pre-rune, so that we can cover our uniforms with more interesting pieces of flair (unisave? Sleight of hand? Hide? Set trap? Bluff? Leadership?).

ALSO!!!

Class themed armors tend to look alike. Rangers have, if I'm remembering correctly, a hide/studded leather setup for STR and a t-shirt setup for DEX. Rogues have a tiny handful of t-shirt and leather options, but tend to want rogue leathers most of the time. A negative consequence of this is that members of a certain classes tend to look alike. I think we should be offering different options that are actually competitive with each other just for the sake of aesthetics.

I've made about 15 rogues in a row (totally my own fault) and have found myself totally unable to diversify them looks-wise due to chest piece limitations. Unless I'm going for UMD/murderer's raiment it's the same three decent looking leather chest pieces to choose from. The class is capable of using padded/hide/t-shirt, and we need better end-game armors for each. Just my humble opinion.

[Oridnia_Lives]

It was hard to get Rogues Cunning except from finding books, but the Rogue Leathers are runic so I put 10% weight on it and stashed in my pack.

[I will never sleep]

Chiming in just to say all the warlock unique armors are pretty bad and considering warlocks get 50+ umd ezpz I would never consider using them. The cloth would also need to have +3 ac for me to even consider it.

[Tikin]

Yep, the Rogue Leathers.

I guess some can use it, good for them. Probably not dex chars with full rogue lvls. I guess changing what it is would penalize some, but would simply add two other versions with same boons in the lighter base class armors be troublesome?

Thanks for considering

[Svrtr]

Yep, the Rogue Leathers.

I guess some can use it, good for them. Probably not dex chars with full rogue lvls. I guess changing what it is would penalize some, but would simply add two other versions with same boons in the lighter base class armors be troublesome?

Thanks for considering

Likewise its AC is "alright" but its the same AC as draconic, but without the +1 STR, +2 disc, 10% slashing DI. Likewise draconic's dex AC caps at 4, aka 18 DEX which is far more achievable for a strengther and thus studded leather is preferable for strengthers. Then on the opposite end its way too low for dexers.

This is more a problem with the type of armor as a whole, but unfavorable stats and more investment for the same gain in AC and potentially less AC when we factor lightly armored for strength rogues going studded leathers makes it feel bad