Concerns on contradictive disguise rules.

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malcolm_mountainslayer
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Concerns on contradictive disguise rules.

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:20 pm

I will probably have a lot of disagreement on this, but I can't seem to let this passion go on what would seem to me very flawed/contradictory rulings.

The ruling that was brought to my attention can be found: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=21795&start=75#p309434

If I am understanding this correctly, you are expected to just be blind/ignore face models when outing someone's lazy disguise if you did not pass the spot check.

For me this blatantly breaks WYSIWYG. It's cool to have extra details in your descriptions, but in the past it was optional to accept any RP/description that was not plainly there for a player to see (like a player may choose to accept a monster race attempting to disguise, but that are not expected too). If your headmodel is blonde, and your describe yourself as a redhead; I shouldn't be expected to memorize how you described yourself as as a redhead would be a more relevant example. But if you are disguised, then I suddenly am? If you are too far for me to a get a description from examining and doing a crime, can I not as a play describe what I plainly saw in a report? Descriptions should not supercede WYSIYG, yet we are expected to have hair/face amnesia if we do not pass a spot check.

Now to be fair neither the ruling of WYSIWYG nor any rules are covered under the 5 rules mentioned on

https://nwnarelith.com/index.php/faq

But reference to the wiki is under “what do I need to know before roleplaying” although only mentioning custom changes not roleplay/rules standards.

When clicking the link to the wiki and then the link for disguises: https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Disguise

This page does not say anywhere about ignoring faces, but very strongly re-inforces WYSIWYG multiple times including in bold: “ -disguise means that people should ignore the floaty name over your head, but does NOT let you ignore what your avatar physically looks like.”

I know wiki can be edited and is not always directly from staff making rules or new rulings, so I had to go fish up forums posting (which you arn't directly at for rules at all on the arelith FAQ and there is to my frustration no 'rules thread' just 'reminders' of already existing rules and I am having troubles finding the origin of the rules at certain times) and was not succesful. In fact due to the forums limiting how often I can do searches, I stopped in frustration in trying to find the original ruling for ignoring faces or WYSIWYG within the forums (the reminder from Grumpy cat that I referenced does not link such).

(relevant because a player might not find all the hidden specific clause rules, and perhaps that is something else we should address as we perhaps streamline our rules our bare minimum rules).

I bring this up because the post I linked earlier about ignored faces when not spotting someone's disguise (can't this be abused ust like if we all given the face change command like we were shapeshifters only people with access to magic and fantasy level makeup?) say it is up to the player who might accidentally out someone to cover themselves with screenshots. This is heavy burden for someone calling out a lazy disguise. I myself don't process descriptions well and already avoid guard RP due to not able to physically describe people well, but now if I managed to pull off a great description, the face part of someone's description becomes mute? This is all very contrary and keeps adding more burden on the spotter. If it's punitive, the burden of proof should be the on disguising. If I don't mechanically spot that you are disguised, then I was able to tell you were that person be it how you talk or not enough change of outfit, etc. If it was truly indeed your face that gave you away, then am I not allowed to engage in RP of falsely calling people out? Am I not allowed to be crazy and accuse everyone of being a known criminal even if faces don't match out of paranoia? Having someone with similar faces is a two sided coin creates more RP opportunity. Like you could send someone in with the same face to be mistakenly grabbed as a distraction while you slip in, etc. You could even disguise your self as someone with a similar face try to falsify crime on their identity. Furthermore, if someone picks an uncommon face or has hotpink hair, do we just ignore WYSIYG here too? It seems silly too.

After reading the wiki section of disguises, perhaps Grumpy was not saying that all of the burden is on the person outing the disguiser, but they should cover themselves just like both sides should in any disagreement. I am totally fine with that, if that is the case. Clarification here is appreciated. Either way, I think full ignoring faces is a bit extreme.

I would like to have these two ruling, rules I can't even find the original ruling made except for on the wiki which heavily favours WYSIWYG and NOT ignoring faces, not only reconciled but also perhaps streamlined into some clear and concise accessible thing for players. Because they are not covered at all under Arelith's five rules.


DM Poppy
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Re: Concerns on contradictive disguise rules.

Post by DM Poppy » Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:21 pm

I am going to lock this thread. As we don't need another long debate, covering a topic that has been confirmed several times. I will split my points up to make them easy to navigate.

WYSIWYG applies with disguises for Monsterous Models

A Goblin cannot disguise as a Halfling or a Gnome, they are a Goblin. They can however pretend to be a Goblin you are not familiar with.

WYSIWYG applies with exceptionally distinctive Hair Colours and Skin Colours and Wings. But Checks still direct the RP actions you should take.

If you see a Gnome with tango apple green hair, a colour that is not default or common, using several disguises. Then you could apply a reasonable amount of suspicion, but failing to break their disguise would prevent you outing them with certainty. Because their may infact be other Gnomes with green hair, their may in fact be other Blue Tieflings and their way well be other Winged Elves.

As for the rest. It is quite a simple process.

If you FAIL the disguise check. Your Character is not even aware they are disguised. Do not push your suspicion on them further, unless you can prove that your Character treats EVERY. SINGLE. CHARACTER. The same way.

Because if you cannot. Then it is reasonable to consider the fact that your Character has a strange dislike towards Character that only you as a Player can see are disguised.

If you break a disguise on a Character you've never met. You can, with absolute certainty, suggest they are not whom they claim to be. But as you have never met their Character and do not recognise them or their name, you are not suddeny privvy to that information IG.

I will make one amendment. In response to that of a "LAZY DISGUISE".

A Name. Does not amount to a disguise. If you are attempting to disguise, your name is only the title of that disguise. The core elements of it are your clothing, your description and your writing.

If Bob. With the description of Jack, dressed in all red robes leaves and returns as Tim, with the description of Jack, dressed in exactly the same red robes. You are safe to be suspicious and raise your concern IG.

It is an art of ACTIVELY attempting to disguise / conceal your identity. So you are expected to put in the effort to fulfil that component of the feature.

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I'm the nice one.. I promise :twisted:

DM Poppy
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Re: Concerns on contradictive disguise rules.

Post by DM Poppy » Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:29 pm

As for our rules

The 5 Golden Rules that you refer to. They are our Core Rules, the absolutely nitty gritty of what our server must have to function adequetly. These are something that you will not be forgiven for not being aware of, as they are utterly essential to play on the server.

The Rules on the Wiki are expansions on the core rules, things that have presented themselves as something that hinder immersion, RP or fun in some form or another. So we have taken steps to encourage and rule against this behaviour. Not being aware of these immediately, is not something we would hold fatally against a player. But it's still something we'd encourage people to read before they engage in the activities listed.

The updates and reminders are made, when their is a general rise in the number of complaints and feedback regarding a certain topic. But that we feel is not appropriate to take heavy action against. A nudge to players to say "This isn't okay. So please. Can we keep it in mind"

I'm the nice one.. I promise :twisted:

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The GrumpyCat
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Re: Concerns on contradictive disguise rules.

Post by The GrumpyCat » Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:45 pm

Pipping in very briefly to add one small note.

Breaking disguises should ideally be a Y/N binery. IF you break disguise, you can be susspicious of the person. If you don't - you can't be. However as is above, this doesn't acount for WYSIWYG, susspicious behaviour, lazy disguises ect. Unfortunatly none of those things are immedatly provable by our log checking.

My point?

IF you are going to roleplay being susspicious/arresting/accusing/ect someone of not being what they seem, DESPITE not having broken their disguise (whether this be because of circumstance, or being very unique in appearence, or not changing outfit, or not changing description ect) then please take screenshots and be prepared to defend you case to the DMs. With the evidence at hand you can better defend your case with information that our log checks don't neccesarly show us.

And - when in doubt? Rule in favour of the other person. Be generous. Be kind. It'll be appreciated.

This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

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