Spellmageddon Part 2

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MissEvelyn
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Re: Spellmageddon Part 2

Post by MissEvelyn » Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:43 am

-XXX- wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:56 am

Strangulate reads Reflex & Fort save, but what portion of the spell does the fortitude save against?

Description: An invisible hand reaches out from the caster, grabbing the subject's throat and strangling them. The target makes a Reflex save. If they fail, the target is restrained and can't speak or cast spells with verbal components. If the caster attempts to do anything else while the spell is active, their concentration may break and the spell may end. The spell takes no effect against creatures that do not need to breathe, like oozes, elementals, undead, constructs, air genasi.

I'm going to guess that the caster's "Concentration" is a Fortitude saving throw.


perseid
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Re: Spellmageddon Part 2

Post by perseid » Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:49 am

I like almost all of the new stuff for different considerations. Thoughts based on what's been said so far...

-I like that spells like Solipsism are coming with a bit of flavor text to help convey the intended experience. Yeah some people will rp it better than others but I don't think this is any more of an obstacle than people rping the effect of Confusion, Daze, or other mind altering spells.

-Greater Chromatic Orb being a Conjuration is also refreshing. It's a nice return to game mechanics actually reflecting the PnP edition the game and setting are based on. In 3.x most orb spells were Conjuration, certainly the worthwhile ones, and I'm assuming that's what this is based on since it uses ranged touch attacks in the same way too.

-I do agree Eagle Sight seems a little too good even if you can't wand it. The Truesight/Spot bonuses alone are good but then on top of that you have the pre-emptive blind negation. At the same time I don't know which part of it I would call too strong because at a glance I'd call blind blocking the best part in a lot of ways but that's also the part I think will be the most interesting for its pvp implications.

-Wraith Stride being breachable seems odd... I'm not sure how to feel about it. I think as people become more comfortable leveraging its movement applications effectively it'll become a situationally strong spell but the short duration makes the breachability seem unnecessary. Even extended you're looking at only a bit over a minute of up-time. But that being said, I guess it might make sense given that for anyone who can conjure body blockers it'll already be a very useful spacing tool.

-Stop Heart seems fine. I get why people don't like Save or Die effects but it's only Deathward specifically that doesn't block it and it's par for the course when there's already stuff like Implosion. Especially since it's a touch range spell and I'm assuming -pray can be used to help circumvent getting finished off (but maybe I'm wrong). Either way it seems reasonable considering it's not a true Save or Die spell.

Overall: Speaking as a Wizard main I really like the expanded variety in schools like Necro, Illusion, and Trans. I think in a lot of ways this kind of stuff is exactly what's needed to help bring Wizard up to PvP par with its Sorcerer peers because more good spells, and more good spells across more schools, naturally increases the value of the Wizard's broad spell book.


Inkish
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Re: Spellmageddon Part 2

Post by Inkish » Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:03 am

MissEvelyn wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:43 am
-XXX- wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:56 am

Strangulate reads Reflex & Fort save, but what portion of the spell does the fortitude save against?

Description: An invisible hand reaches out from the caster, grabbing the subject's throat and strangling them. The target makes a Reflex save. If they fail, the target is restrained and can't speak or cast spells with verbal components. If the caster attempts to do anything else while the spell is active, their concentration may break and the spell may end. The spell takes no effect against creatures that do not need to breathe, like oozes, elementals, undead, constructs, air genasi.

I'm going to guess that the caster's "Concentration" is a Fortitude saving throw.

It's probably like all other concentration spells. If you do anything else, spell ends.

Characters~

Zith d'Astunin ~ Semi-Active
Maev ~ Active
Secret UD Alt ~ Semi-Active
Narguul ~ Mostly Shelved
Gimmorra ~ Mostly Shelved

Inkish
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Re: Spellmageddon Part 2

Post by Inkish » Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:35 am

Inkish wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:52 pm

My comment so far is going to be about:

Create Blood Homunculus.

If this is the "Hemonancer Summon" that was supposed to come out and be intended as an epic level to max level summon, before knowing what its stats are, I already disagree with it being Transmutation school.

Hemomancer gets practically nothing from being transmutation focus, as their primary schools are necromancy and evocation, and get no animal buffs. Their only other transmutation spell of note is flesh to stone, and that's already outshined by a bunch of other spells in that level.

The spell should be either Necromancy, or Necromancy/Evocation like most other blood arcana/hemomancer specific spells.

Especially since you're asking for a 9th level spell slot from hemomancer, which only get 3 spots AND a minimum HP requirement to be as powerful as it can, asking for an off brand foci is just excessive. If Tier 3 outshines every other summon, then perhaps that's a fair ask, but I have a feeling it won't.

Maybe it's Transmutation for Wiz/Sorc (who actually take that foci), and Evocation/Necromancy for Hemomancer?

Addendum: Blood Stacks empowering the summon, or being a replacement for foci/HP drain, would be neat too.

Further Addendum: After doing the Math, to get 240+ HP drain for tier 3, you'd need to have 480 HP. On a wiz/sorc or hemo, which are d4 and d6 hit dice respectively.

That means a Wiz/Sorc would have to have a MINIMUM of +12 CON from gear/buffs, 22 BASE CON, AND be at max HP to get the tier 3. Hemo would have to be a barely slightly more reasonable BASE 18 CON to get the 480 HP requirement.

This is absolutely absurdly high. It needs to be lowered, significantly.

Characters~

Zith d'Astunin ~ Semi-Active
Maev ~ Active
Secret UD Alt ~ Semi-Active
Narguul ~ Mostly Shelved
Gimmorra ~ Mostly Shelved

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garrbear758
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Re: Spellmageddon Part 2

Post by garrbear758 » Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:52 am

Alyxnia wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:17 am

A clear lack of testing before pushing this update led to the server crashing so heavily and repeatedly that a 10+ hour rollback was needed. This effectively wasted my entire day off of playing and I am sure just about everyone else affected is rather unhappy with this as well.

I get that when you have a big update you're excited to merge it as soon as you think it's ready, but please test your code, thanks.

It was tested and reviewed by several people. You're playing a 20 year old heavily modified game. This stuff happens at real companies. Microsoft outlook was down for 8 hours 2 days ago.

Comments like this make people not want to volunteer for the server.

You've done it [Garrbear], you've kicked the winemom nest. -Redacted

Babylon System is the Vampire
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Re: Spellmageddon Part 2

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:57 am

garrbear758 wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:52 am
Alyxnia wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:17 am

A clear lack of testing before pushing this update led to the server crashing so heavily and repeatedly that a 10+ hour rollback was needed. This effectively wasted my entire day off of playing and I am sure just about everyone else affected is rather unhappy with this as well.

I get that when you have a big update you're excited to merge it as soon as you think it's ready, but please test your code, thanks.

It was tested and reviewed by several people. You're playing a 20 year old heavily modified game. This stuff happens at real companies. Microsoft outlook was down for 8 hours 2 days ago.

Comments like this make people not want to volunteer for the server.

Welcome back garrbear.


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Kenji
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Re: Spellmageddon Part 2

Post by Kenji » Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:10 am

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:57 am
garrbear758 wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:52 am
Alyxnia wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:17 am

A clear lack of testing before pushing this update led to the server crashing so heavily and repeatedly that a 10+ hour rollback was needed. This effectively wasted my entire day off of playing and I am sure just about everyone else affected is rather unhappy with this as well.

I get that when you have a big update you're excited to merge it as soon as you think it's ready, but please test your code, thanks.

It was tested and reviewed by several people. You're playing a 20 year old heavily modified game. This stuff happens at real companies. Microsoft outlook was down for 8 hours 2 days ago.

Comments like this make people not want to volunteer for the server.

Welcome back garrbear.

LOL


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garrbear758
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Re: Spellmageddon Part 2

Post by garrbear758 » Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:40 am

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:57 am
garrbear758 wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:52 am
Alyxnia wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:17 am

A clear lack of testing before pushing this update led to the server crashing so heavily and repeatedly that a 10+ hour rollback was needed. This effectively wasted my entire day off of playing and I am sure just about everyone else affected is rather unhappy with this as well.

I get that when you have a big update you're excited to merge it as soon as you think it's ready, but please test your code, thanks.

It was tested and reviewed by several people. You're playing a 20 year old heavily modified game. This stuff happens at real companies. Microsoft outlook was down for 8 hours 2 days ago.

Comments like this make people not want to volunteer for the server.

Welcome back garrbear.

LOL thanks i laughed my Snuggybear off at this. I should stop being lazy and actually fix a bug or something instead of derailing the feedback. Sorry yall!

And actually on topic. I'm not a fan of save or die either but it's something that exists so I think adding flavor to it is okay. Also, the range for stop heart is touch, so good luck getting in touch range of a wm and not losing concentration, them failing the save, and not dying. I didn't realize it was touch and honestly wouldn't take it on anything except maybe a caster pm, and 8 is a very competitive slot for them.

You've done it [Garrbear], you've kicked the winemom nest. -Redacted

Exordius
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Re: Spellmageddon Part 2

Post by Exordius » Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:47 am

Dehydrate is not appearing on the cleric spell list and False Life is not appearing on the shaman spell list.

False life is not showing up on the cleric spell list either.

Shaman is missing a few more as well.

Last edited by Exordius on Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

AstralUniverse
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Re: Spellmageddon Part 2

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:09 am

I hope to see some warlock pact spells added . Here's some ideas on how to distribute them:

infernal - Spinal Tap, Life + Greater Life Transfer, Greater Chromatic Orb

abyssal - Baleful Polymorph, Spinal Tap, Life + Greater Life transfer, Greater Chromatic Orb

fathomless - Frigid Darkness, Greater Chromatic Orb

hag - Blur, Frigid Darkness, Withering Ray, Greater Chromatic Orb, Wraith Stride (3 min cd),

star - Blur, Frigid Darkness, Spinal tap, Greater Chromatic Orb, Wraith Stride (3 min cd)

undying - False life. Frigid Darkness. Life + Greater Life Transfer, Negative Energy Flood. Withering Ray. Spinal Tap. Wraith Stride (3 min cd)
Remove Circle of Doom and Energy Drain because they're just awful spells and that's a bucketload of new necro spells.

unseelie - Blur. Baleful polymorph. Frigid Darkness. Greater Chromatic Orb, Wraith Stride (3 min cd)

Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Scylon
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Re: Spellmageddon Part 2

Post by Scylon » Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:12 am

Homunculus -

This is a very interesting idea that i'd like to explore further. This is gonna be another update I am gonna test the crap out of I think. not much time today but I couldn't help myself with this guy. Overall the concept for this summon is just amazing I must say. However it is outclassed before you even can summon it.

Something I picked up on right away, the T3 version of this guy has no regen, where the t2 does.

Also the power gap between T2 and T3 is extremely small. Its like 1ab/dam. 30 hp etc. Also as a hemo who is built for HP, it was hard to get this guy to T3.

Suggestions -

Well, Its power needs to be fiddled with per tier I think, as well as the HP requirements to create tiers. It's similar to the abomination, just might need a tweak/give it some special abilities. Also I think this spell Opens the door for an epic variant/feat for T4 (I'll add that to the suggestion box). However if epic is off the table, this spell might want to be treated more like gate. As it stands now you would be mad to use it in pvp as it is a self 50% own, and you are unlikely to have one just sitting around as it is turns per level.


Vangrave
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Re: Spellmageddon Part 2

Post by Vangrave » Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:36 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:09 am

hag - Blur, Frigid Darkness, Withering Ray, Greater Chromatic Orb, Wraith Stride (3 min cd),

I think it would be an absolutely insane oversight not to put baleful polymorph into the hag spell list. Archetypal fantasy hags are all about turning people into toads.


Naghast
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Re: Spellmageddon Part 2

Post by Naghast » Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:16 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:09 am

undying - False life. Frigid Darkness. Life + Greater Life Transfer, Negative Energy Flood. Withering Ray. Spinal Tap. Wraith Stride (3 min cd)
Remove Circle of Doom and Energy Drain because they're just awful spells and that's a bucketload of new necro spells.

Please for the love of insert something important or that would conver great magnitude of something do not remove circle of doom and energy drain from undying, they're literally both bread and butter of my necrolock.

My ene drain hits dc 38.
Circle of doom is my way to aoe heal my undead since i do not have eldritch doom.


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In Sorrow We Trust
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Re: Spellmageddon Part 2

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:29 am

Inkish wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:35 am
Inkish wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:52 pm

My comment so far is going to be about:

Create Blood Homunculus.

If this is the "Hemonancer Summon" that was supposed to come out and be intended as an epic level to max level summon, before knowing what its stats are, I already disagree with it being Transmutation school.

Hemomancer gets practically nothing from being transmutation focus, as their primary schools are necromancy and evocation, and get no animal buffs. Their only other transmutation spell of note is flesh to stone, and that's already outshined by a bunch of other spells in that level.

The spell should be either Necromancy, or Necromancy/Evocation like most other blood arcana/hemomancer specific spells.

Especially since you're asking for a 9th level spell slot from hemomancer, which only get 3 spots AND a minimum HP requirement to be as powerful as it can, asking for an off brand foci is just excessive. If Tier 3 outshines every other summon, then perhaps that's a fair ask, but I have a feeling it won't.

Maybe it's Transmutation for Wiz/Sorc (who actually take that foci), and Evocation/Necromancy for Hemomancer?

Addendum: Blood Stacks empowering the summon, or being a replacement for foci/HP drain, would be neat too.

Further Addendum: After doing the Math, to get 240+ HP drain for tier 3, you'd need to have 480 HP. On a wiz/sorc or hemo, which are d4 and d6 hit dice respectively.

That means a Wiz/Sorc would have to have a MINIMUM of +12 CON from gear/buffs, 22 BASE CON, AND be at max HP to get the tier 3. Hemo would have to be a barely slightly more reasonable BASE 18 CON to get the 480 HP requirement.

This is absolutely absurdly high. It needs to be lowered, significantly.

Basically how the summon works is this:

  1. Baseline summon is created. In theory it should already be a decent alternative to Ancient elementals (from GSF conjuration) even if you don't have ESF trans. Epic level scaling will further increase the summon strength.

  2. The baseline summon is buffed further by transmutation focuses.

  3. HP consumed gives several other benefits, some of them not seen on the sheet. This includes scaling damage reduction, regeneration and bleeding damage.

  4. It will count temporary hit points in the check. Consider using that to boost it further.

  5. Tier 3 should not feel necessary. Tier 2 and tier 3 don't have a large difference between them, it's mostly "nice to have".

It also makes no sense for it to be necromancy as it is not undead. It is a Construct.

Vittoria Veleno
catch me if you can


Amnesy
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Re: Spellmageddon Part 2

Post by Amnesy » Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:36 am

-XXX- wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:05 am
In Sorrow We Trust wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:59 am

Nothing. Description typo.

OK, but this is what the combat log shows on PGCC:
Image

The first save is against the effect, the second save is to cut the duration in half.


jomonog
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Re: Spellmageddon Part 2

Post by jomonog » Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:50 am

At the moment when you cast blades of fire it only targets the main-hand weapon and not the offhand weapon. Given its short duration it would be good if it could be changed to work so that it hits both main hand and offhand at the same time if the character is dual wielding.


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Re: Spellmageddon Part 2

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:01 am

Amnesy wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:36 am
-XXX- wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:05 am
In Sorrow We Trust wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:59 am

Nothing. Description typo.

OK, but this is what the combat log shows on PGCC:
Image

The first save is against the effect, the second save is to cut the duration in half.

we removed that I thought? since the concentration check prevents actions anyway.

Vittoria Veleno
catch me if you can


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Scylon
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Re: Spellmageddon Part 2

Post by Scylon » Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:46 am

In Sorrow We Trust wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:29 am

It also makes no sense for it to be necromancy as it is not undead. It is a Construct.

Normally sure, makes sense. But it is also a blood themed spell. Like all other ones it could be dual purpose. Necro and trans. Many others are Necro or Evo

Regarding what you said about scaling benifits about HP sacrifices I'll play with that more. If it is actually T3+ in function, forget what I said earlier about tweaking. It might actually be awesome if you dump enough HP into it


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Aftond
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Re: Spellmageddon Part 2

Post by Aftond » Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:16 am

Can you give undeath/death clerics the chill touch cantrip? Thank you!


Inkish
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Re: Spellmageddon Part 2

Post by Inkish » Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:08 am

In Sorrow We Trust wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:29 am
Inkish wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:35 am
Inkish wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:52 pm

My comment so far is going to be about:

Create Blood Homunculus.

If this is the "Hemonancer Summon" that was supposed to come out and be intended as an epic level to max level summon, before knowing what its stats are, I already disagree with it being Transmutation school.

Hemomancer gets practically nothing from being transmutation focus, as their primary schools are necromancy and evocation, and get no animal buffs. Their only other transmutation spell of note is flesh to stone, and that's already outshined by a bunch of other spells in that level.

The spell should be either Necromancy, or Necromancy/Evocation like most other blood arcana/hemomancer specific spells.

Especially since you're asking for a 9th level spell slot from hemomancer, which only get 3 spots AND a minimum HP requirement to be as powerful as it can, asking for an off brand foci is just excessive. If Tier 3 outshines every other summon, then perhaps that's a fair ask, but I have a feeling it won't.

Maybe it's Transmutation for Wiz/Sorc (who actually take that foci), and Evocation/Necromancy for Hemomancer?

Addendum: Blood Stacks empowering the summon, or being a replacement for foci/HP drain, would be neat too.

Further Addendum: After doing the Math, to get 240+ HP drain for tier 3, you'd need to have 480 HP. On a wiz/sorc or hemo, which are d4 and d6 hit dice respectively.

That means a Wiz/Sorc would have to have a MINIMUM of +12 CON from gear/buffs, 22 BASE CON, AND be at max HP to get the tier 3. Hemo would have to be a barely slightly more reasonable BASE 18 CON to get the 480 HP requirement.

This is absolutely absurdly high. It needs to be lowered, significantly.

Basically how the summon works is this:

  1. Baseline summon is created. In theory it should already be a decent alternative to Ancient elementals (from GSF conjuration) even if you don't have ESF trans. Epic level scaling will further increase the summon strength.

  2. The baseline summon is buffed further by transmutation focuses.

  3. HP consumed gives several other benefits, some of them not seen on the sheet. This includes scaling damage reduction, regeneration and bleeding damage.

  4. It will count temporary hit points in the check. Consider using that to boost it further.

  5. Tier 3 should not feel necessary. Tier 2 and tier 3 don't have a large difference between them, it's mostly "nice to have".

It also makes no sense for it to be necromancy as it is not undead. It is a Construct.

Additionally:

It's blood magic, which means the blood magic damage occurs to the caster BEFORE it takes into account the half HP chunk. So really you need 500+ HP to reliably summon the tier 3. And 10-20+ more HP for other tiers.

Characters~

Zith d'Astunin ~ Semi-Active
Maev ~ Active
Secret UD Alt ~ Semi-Active
Narguul ~ Mostly Shelved
Gimmorra ~ Mostly Shelved

AstralUniverse
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Re: Spellmageddon Part 2

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:19 am

Naghast wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:16 am
AstralUniverse wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:09 am

undying - False life. Frigid Darkness. Life + Greater Life Transfer, Negative Energy Flood. Withering Ray. Spinal Tap. Wraith Stride (3 min cd)
Remove Circle of Doom and Energy Drain because they're just awful spells and that's a bucketload of new necro spells.

Please for the love of insert something important or that would conver great magnitude of something do not remove circle of doom and energy drain from undying, they're literally both bread and butter of my necrolock.

My ene drain hits dc 38.
Circle of doom is my way to aoe heal my undead since i do not have eldritch doom.

I dont think they would be removed, if that reassures you. I'm also surprised people use them but I think it eventually doesnt matter since the spell selection can be big but ultimately the character needs to pick the same number of spells as before.

Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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In Sorrow We Trust
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Re: Spellmageddon Part 2

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:23 am

Scylon wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:46 am
In Sorrow We Trust wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:29 am

It also makes no sense for it to be necromancy as it is not undead. It is a Construct.

Normally sure, makes sense. But it is also a blood themed spell. Like all other ones it could be dual purpose. Necro and trans. Many others are Necro or Evo

Regarding what you said about scaling benifits about HP sacrifices I'll play with that more. If it is actually T3+ in function, forget what I said earlier about tweaking. It might actually be awesome if you dump enough HP into it

You could make an argument for it to be both but in order to do that it would require a lot of code changes. Not in favor of that, so I just went with transmutation. In theory, it should be good without focuses anyway, as that was how it was designed.

Vittoria Veleno
catch me if you can


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-XXX-
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Re: Spellmageddon Part 2

Post by -XXX- » Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:26 am

Baleful Polymorph : the transmogrified creatures can be controlled with animal empathy. Resting then drops the polymorph but does not release the creature. This can potentially result in the caster having some very powerful extra henchmen. I'd suggest reviewing this interaction.

BTW, if anybody wondered about the PGCC's Black Slaad stats:
Image


perseid
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Re: Spellmageddon Part 2

Post by perseid » Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:57 pm

Just a thought without regard to balance per se, but after dwelling on it a bit I think it's weird that the Blood Homunculus can be blocked via Summon Blocking and can be banished (and presumably dismissed as well). The reason this stands out to me as strange is that there isn't a lot mechanically or thematically to indicate it should be the case. A boar conjured via Summon Monster I can be banished/blocked because even if it's from the Prime Material it's still being brought to the caster via the summoning. In this case however the Homunculus is a Construct and rather than being Called or Summoned (in PnP there's a distinction so I'm acknowledging both) it's being outright constructed magically via transmuting the caster's own blood.


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Hazard
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Re: Spellmageddon Part 2

Post by Hazard » Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:04 pm

perseid wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:57 pm

Just a thought without regard to balance per se, but after dwelling on it a bit I think it's weird that the Blood Homunculus can be blocked via Summon Blocking and can be banished (and presumably dismissed as well). The reason this stands out to me as strange is that there isn't a lot mechanically or thematically to indicate it should be the case. A boar conjured via Summon Monster I can be banished/blocked because even if it's from the Prime Material it's still being brought to the caster via the summoning. In this case however the Homunculus is a Construct and rather than being Called or Summoned (in PnP there's a distinction so I'm acknowledging both) it's being outright constructed magically via transmuting the caster's own blood.

I would agree, in the same way banishment/dismissal does not affect animated dead (until recently), maybe it should not affect transmutations .. Well. Except for being blocked, I guess, if that's what we're doing with undead too now. Preferably neither.


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