Warlock Update : Discussion

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Biolab00
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Warlock Update : Discussion

Post by Biolab00 » Sun Mar 05, 2023 5:51 am

With the current update to Warlock, Summonlock has received plenty of love and honestly, this isn't a bad thing.
Most of the changes such as, able to heal and hastening it, is considered a good QOL because it's possible to achieve this regardless, with or without this update.

And a very good specific mechanic boon that WOF will no longer make Summonlock worthless because, investing in Summon feat will definitely result in sad blast damage. So, it's a massive boon already and will no longer make WOF a very direct counterplay, with no defenses, against Summonlock.

So, apart from the boon above.
Since Warlock is currently getting some attention here, i'll like to also point out the current imbalance in the Summoning Stream of the Warlock.
Specifically, the Fey summon stream. This is because of the Crit range of 10-20 compared to the other three existing stream - Demon, Devil and Yugoloth, having a Crit Range of 15-20.

Do others feel the same way?


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Re: Warlock Update : Discussion

Post by MRFTW » Sun Mar 05, 2023 6:42 am

Biolab00 wrote:
Sun Mar 05, 2023 5:51 am

Since Warlock is currently getting some attention here, i'll like to also point out the current imbalance in the Summoning Stream of the Warlock.
Specifically, the Fey summon stream. This is because of the Crit range of 10-20 compared to the other three existing stream - Demon, Devil and Yugoloth, having a Crit Range of 15-20.

Do others feel the same way?

I always thought that was to counterbalance the fact that feylocks get much worse blasting types. Cold/Acid/Positive means they are the only pact that can face 10% immunity and 5/- resistance against all their damage types.


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msterswrdsmn
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Re: Warlock Update : Discussion

Post by msterswrdsmn » Sun Mar 05, 2023 7:42 am

From my experience, the eldritch summons were worse than summoning undead (edit: at lower levels). You'd get multiple undead at relatively early levels, and even without necromancy focuses, they were far less likely to get overwhelmed and killed. When my tier 1 and 2 eldtrich summons get stomped by derro, its not worth burning a feat over early on. The mid-tier ones don't fare much better when compared to create undead. The epic versions are the only ones i've been able to consistently use without them dying frequently.

I play a Night Hag pacted, so I can't comment on the other pact types. The spell changes are...kinda wierd? Most pacted types can empower their blasts and have a good spell spread with 2 spell focus groups; hags can't.

The added spells for hag pacted are a mix of necromancy, enchantment, illusion and transmutation. Hag pacted characters pretty much need enchantment spell focuses to empower their blasts, which puts them in a wierd spot trying to pick out their second spell school focus as their spells are haphazardly spread out between 3 other schools (illusion, necromancy, and some transmutation)

A lot of the spells fit thematically with hags, but its difficult to effectively use them when warlocks realistically can only get 2 spelll schools to focus in. Nightmare is very powerful, but only works on sleeping targets. And if you fail to kill something with nightmare and it wakes up, it will become immune to sleep This makes nightmare a liability if you can't kill enemies in time, as sleep is your main form of crowd control and way of boosting your spell dcs along with mindfog.

As a counterpoint to the above about unseelie, the -damage- types of unseelie might be objectively worse (positive being the best, with cold/acid being commonly resisted by certain enemies/biomes), but almost all their spells can be snugly covered by transmutation and enchantment spell focuses and they have a very powerful secondary effect on their blasts that do not require additional feat investments to be effective. Since their spells are more "focused" in terms of spell school types, they have access to a far better selection of effective spells as well (confusion, imp invisibilty, haste, mindfog, spike growth, entangle, slow and dominate person are all very powerful when used properly).

I've seen people comment in-game that almost all the pacted types they've seen are unseelie; theres a reason for that, at a glance. Aside from the fathomless pact type, everything else looks objectively worse by varying degrees. Either because their spells are spread out all over the place in terms of spell types, or their blast effects have a less useful effect that may or may not require 2 spell focus feats to fully make use of. Or both.

Last edited by msterswrdsmn on Sun Mar 05, 2023 1:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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AnselHoenheim
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Re: Warlock Update : Discussion

Post by AnselHoenheim » Sun Mar 05, 2023 10:29 am

Right now, summoners are in a good position, warlocks or not, for not needing a virtually invulnerability against WoF adding a fortitude save to it, specially since everyone who uses WoF tends to do it with low DC, if it is consumable, or casted by a battle cleric, there are only the exception of healer / cloister cleric, which will be the ones having a decent DC to be able to remove those summons.

As a second note, I think there is not enough justification to say that warlock deserves this just because they invest three feats into it, what about the other rest of summoners? What about those who uses planar conduit, elemental meteor, or mummy dust? They can only use it once and I don't see a reason to actually give them a virtual immunity to WoF just because "They can only do it once", no, if they lose their own summon, then they rely on backup summons, name it greater planar binding, summon monster IX, or consumables via books / scrolls with gate.

This builds up a scary precedent of removing a counter against summons, and right now they are in a -really good- position for removing this effective counter.


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Re: Warlock Update : Discussion

Post by AstralUniverse » Sun Mar 05, 2023 2:41 pm

AnselHoenheim wrote:
Sun Mar 05, 2023 10:29 am

As a second note, I think there is not enough justification to say that warlock deserves this just because they invest three feats into it, what about the other rest of summoners? What about those who uses planar conduit, elemental meteor, or mummy dust?

A lvl 30 warlock has 9 warlock feats in total if they go pure. This means that summoning costs them 1/3 of everything that they are and forces them into deep cha route on top. While conduit summoners only need to invest 1 epic feat. One could argue that they also invest in conjuration feats but 1) they are general feats too, not just special class feats investments, and 2) the focuses give a lot more than just a boost to summons stats. An Eldritch summoner warlock (not undead spells) is VERY invested in it, and it costs a lot.

Other than that, I think the added save to WoF is a bit too much because these summons can easily have 28+ saves from epic caster scaling and gsf conjuration and circle vs alignment, which is a lot against WoFs. on top of that, the blind affect on a successful save isnt quite gonna cut it because the wonky AI sometimes likes to stick to targets they register even if you blind them so imo, the blind should be replaced by something else... like Slow or whatever.

Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Warlock Update : Discussion

Post by Rico_scorpion » Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:57 pm

On another note, I've tried really really hard to make Hideous blow a thing... but for the life of me I just can't see it. I mean the feature itself probably works, but I can't even get if off the paper, the stat spread is just killing it.

24 base str (eldritch armor)
13 int (expertise and improved expertise)
16-18 cha (18 if you want full spell potential)
And should you want any HP, Undying, or EDR => 14-19 base CON (remember you're supposed to be meleeing). But I guess that's unreachable no matter what in the current state.

It is way too limiting in terms of building, race picking, prioritization (you have to do things in a specific order to succeed), and really much not "beginner" friendly. So yes, after a lot of tinkering I managed to get one character that I think makes sense with hideous blow in his kit, but... that's almost sad that I can't really try several hideous blow builds (beside the pact), with such a modular class. It's the only feat that does that.

I think eldritch armor should be lowered to 20 str or the int requirement of expertise removed when you have the hideous blow feat. I'm smothering here :D


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Re: Warlock Update : Discussion

Post by Helsing » Sun Mar 05, 2023 6:40 pm

Probably a bad analogy, the new Warlock patch is like Diablo 2 releases a patch buffing sorceer (generally blizzard sorc is considered S-tier builds) while classes like assassin sits in bottom.

When we are nerfing aoe spells to wiz, mundies are suffering for consumables. Meanwhile warlock has some of the best QoL cookies and we are still giving them more, a bit overkill to me.

Hazard wrote: Doing that on a non-mundane requires constant stops to rest, chugging alcohol whenever your spells start wearing off/get dispelled, and with casters, you're going to get through that dungeon once in the time a 25/5 can get through it 10+ times.

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Re: Warlock Update : Discussion

Post by Xerah » Sun Mar 05, 2023 6:59 pm

Helsing wrote:
Sun Mar 05, 2023 6:40 pm

Probably a bad analogy, the new Warlock patch is like Diablo 2 releases a patch buffing sorceer (generally blizzard sorc is considered S-tier builds) while classes like assassin sits in bottom.

When we are nerfing aoe spells to wiz, mundies are suffering for consumables. Meanwhile warlock has some of the best QoL cookies and we are still giving them more, a bit overkill to me.

This is not how development works. It is not a hive mind. It's really not helpful to look at things like that.

Someone has worked on a class, and they wish to tinker with it further due to their vision of the class plus feedback, so they make the changes. They often have a number of projects they are working on, and jumping to what a few people decide is most necessary aren't affected by what they are working on. If someone really thinks something should be changed that they don't think is being touched, then I urge them to work on it themselves.

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Re: Warlock Update : Discussion

Post by Good Character » Sun Mar 05, 2023 10:10 pm

Rico_scorpion wrote:
Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:57 pm

On another note, I've tried really really hard to make Hideous blow a thing... but for the life of me I just can't see it. I mean the feature itself probably works, but I can't even get if off the paper, the stat spread is just killing it.

24 base str (eldritch armor)
13 int (expertise and improved expertise)
16-18 cha (18 if you want full spell potential)
And should you want any HP, Undying, or EDR => 14-19 base CON (remember you're supposed to be meleeing). But I guess that's unreachable no matter what in the current state.

It is way too limiting in terms of building, race picking, prioritization (you have to do things in a specific order to succeed), and really much not "beginner" friendly. So yes, after a lot of tinkering I managed to get one character that I think makes sense with hideous blow in his kit, but... that's almost sad that I can't really try several hideous blow builds (beside the pact), with such a modular class. It's the only feat that does that.

I think eldritch armor should be lowered to 20 str or the int requirement of expertise removed when you have the hideous blow feat. I'm smothering here :D

Sadly, right there with you. Specifically Fathomless melee warlock has so much going for it thematically; surround yourself with horrific tentacles, drag people back into you near impunity, the watered-down (pun intended) Drown.

The recent addition of essentially a heal mechanic that heals 35 HP on avg per blast for a 30 pure warlock is fantastic, but I think it doesn't quite address the issue with melee warlock (i.e. worse blast for damage, worse damage output overall, less AC, melee range).


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Re: Warlock Update : Discussion

Post by AstralUniverse » Sun Mar 05, 2023 11:23 pm

Rico_scorpion wrote:
Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:57 pm

On another note, I've tried really really hard to make Hideous blow a thing... but for the life of me I just can't see it. I mean the feature itself probably works, but I can't even get if off the paper, the stat spread is just killing it.

24 base str (eldritch armor)
13 int (expertise and improved expertise)
16-18 cha (18 if you want full spell potential)
And should you want any HP, Undying, or EDR => 14-19 base CON (remember you're supposed to be meleeing). But I guess that's unreachable no matter what in the current state.

It is way too limiting in terms of building, race picking, prioritization (you have to do things in a specific order to succeed), and really much not "beginner" friendly. So yes, after a lot of tinkering I managed to get one character that I think makes sense with hideous blow in his kit, but... that's almost sad that I can't really try several hideous blow builds (beside the pact), with such a modular class. It's the only feat that does that.

I think eldritch armor should be lowered to 20 str or the int requirement of expertise removed when you have the hideous blow feat. I'm smothering here :D

Here's an idea.
Drop the eldrich armor feat. you dont really need it. you also dont really need imp expertise.

you can either be a drow with 16 dex for mastery 2 and a bg dip with divine shield (no epic pact, but hey you get the damage and the ac to frontline with, and now also with some temp hp to 'drain tank') or you can go for something like an orog or cloud(?) giant, drop the bg dip and instead stack as much reductions and physical immunities as possible, then compliment it with epic undying + epic star pacts (because they give even more situational reductions). You dont really need more than 20 str to have good melee blast damage. just having greater hideous as 30 warlock with agonizing blast means you deal 100+ melee blasts with 0 mastery feats. I've tested it on Orog with monkey grip and martial prof (DI halberd + dwarven rune shield) before the temp hp buff and it at the very least tanks pve just fine, shrugs off a lot of damage, has good clear speed, has 24 cha for best warlock undead summons.

Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


Rico_scorpion
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Re: Warlock Update : Discussion

Post by Rico_scorpion » Mon Mar 06, 2023 12:08 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Sun Mar 05, 2023 11:23 pm

sic

Yes I kinda reached almost the same conclusion about "eldritch armor"... the best way to play it, is not to play it. So you take hideous blow but you're forced into "low str" not using its potential, you take hideous (str build) but you don't get to play with the str-only feat that it nets you. So... if the str warlock build is best built without the str-only feat then it only reinforces my point that there is something not working with str warlocks, hence why I suggested reducing str cost of eldritch armor to 20 base str. Eldritch armor has many issues (too weak), and prohibitive cost.

About the races choice, yes if you play underdark then you have a couple of options to make it work; I fully agree to that, but from a surfacer point of view, satisfying solutions start to dry-up fast. Anyway once I gave up on summoning AND part of my spellcasting AND eldritch armor, I still managed to put together a surface character with hideous blow. It's just super counter intuitive to strip everything from the hull just to have it work (or sacrifice all your epic feats on great ability just to get access to your class features).

I have leveled several warlocks already, always went the "spell-spamming" route, was dead-easy to build and super powerful with a lot of build-freedom. Hence the disappointment with str-warlock. Oh well.


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Re: Warlock Update : Discussion

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Mon Mar 06, 2023 1:51 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Sun Mar 05, 2023 2:41 pm
AnselHoenheim wrote:
Sun Mar 05, 2023 10:29 am

As a second note, I think there is not enough justification to say that warlock deserves this just because they invest three feats into it, what about the other rest of summoners? What about those who uses planar conduit, elemental meteor, or mummy dust?

A lvl 30 warlock has 9 warlock feats in total if they go pure. This means that summoning costs them 1/3 of everything that they are and forces them into deep cha route on top. While conduit summoners only need to invest 1 epic feat. One could argue that they also invest in conjuration feats but 1) they are general feats too, not just special class feats investments, and 2) the focuses give a lot more than just a boost to summons stats. An Eldritch summoner warlock (not undead spells) is VERY invested in it, and it costs a lot.

Other than that, I think the added save to WoF is a bit too much because these summons can easily have 28+ saves from epic caster scaling and gsf conjuration and circle vs alignment, which is a lot against WoFs. on top of that, the blind affect on a successful save isnt quite gonna cut it because the wonky AI sometimes likes to stick to targets they register even if you blind them so imo, the blind should be replaced by something else... like Slow or whatever.

Astral universe says it best, and I would be open to said idea he suggested.

That being said, i want to remind everyone that those with planar conduit keep slapping on greater arcane sequencers to block word of faith while your opponent is stuck playing the action economy game and your summons attack them.

I also want to remind people that eldritch summon is not immune to being turned by inquisitor paladins (which roflstomp warlocks with their ability kit) and clerics with evil/good domains.

I am for the slow effect for WoF on eldritch summon so that a player isnt constantly on the backfoot of action economy when attempting to WoF a warlock not realizing eldritch summon mechanics. it will help give some reprieve as the warlock is blinded and their summon is slowed if the summon passed the save. (perhaps kill the summon with a damage burst as it most likely got mords shortly before this as well).


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Re: Warlock Update : Discussion

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Mon Mar 06, 2023 1:58 pm

Rico_scorpion wrote:
Mon Mar 06, 2023 12:08 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Sun Mar 05, 2023 11:23 pm

sic

Yes I kinda reached almost the same conclusion about "eldritch armor"... the best way to play it, is not to play it. So you take hideous blow but you're forced into "low str" not using its potential, you take hideous (str build) but you don't get to play with the str-only feat that it nets you. So... if the str warlock build is best built without the str-only feat then it only reinforces my point that there is something not working with str warlocks, hence why I suggested reducing str cost of eldritch armor to 20 base str. Eldritch armor has many issues (too weak), and prohibitive cost.

About the races choice, yes if you play underdark then you have a couple of options to make it work; I fully agree to that, but from a surfacer point of view, satisfying solutions start to dry-up fast. Anyway once I gave up on summoning AND part of my spellcasting AND eldritch armor, I still managed to put together a surface character with hideous blow. It's just super counter intuitive to strip everything from the hull just to have it work (or sacrifice all your epic feats on great ability just to get access to your class features).

I have leveled several warlocks already, always went the "spell-spamming" route, was dead-easy to build and super powerful with a lot of build-freedom. Hence the disappointment with str-warlock. Oh well.

Yeah, I feel you. Eldritch armor isn't the way. Hideous blow is kind of more viable with the whole temp hp thing though.

If I were to do an eldritch armor build, I would have to let go of summons or settle for tier 5. Which is a little weak on damage side, but can have better AB than gate and can still be hasted. it will do the job PvE wise. but pvp you will just be a tanky melee touch attacker. The feylock tier 5 is really weak in damage, but has a cool frost aura damage.
You can probably pull off something servicable with fiendlock if you were ok with tier 5 summons and eldritch armor. Your empowered hells inferno will carry you when your tier 5 summon doesnt have enough offense for a boss fight or pvp.
Fiendlock 3
eld blast 2
Eld armor
eld summon (turns to greater at epic pact)
hideous blow x 2

If you can land a str mod of 13, you can land 34d6 blasts. Combat expertise only reduces damage for pvp to my memory so you will be laughign with the temp hp and improved expertise. While against players you will rely on hells inferno and your more tanky ac and biteback and 24d6 plus temp hp.

Like a fathomless lock that chills in his own tenticles, with biteback spell, with temp hp per blast, with most the eld blast feats, etc.


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Re: Warlock Update : Discussion

Post by AstralUniverse » Mon Mar 06, 2023 4:53 pm

Yeah Eldritch armor is awful. The difference in the character's over all AC is no where near meaningful enough. I dont think the cha requirement should be lowered, I think this feat should just be better. I'm concerned that if the cha requirement is lowered, we'd be welcoming in obnoxious low damage high ac livelords who also summon with 24 cha. I honestly rather see the feat becoming good and remains costly. What if this feat also gave some bonus ac to actually make it worth it, because otherwise I'm staying with range blasts thanks (or bg dips, or heavy dr/di route).

Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Warlock Update : Discussion

Post by Good Character » Tue Mar 07, 2023 2:03 am

I feel that is exactly just the case. Melee warlock may have been an interesting concept to tuck into the warlock overhaul but quickly found too difficult to balance with the other existing features of the class.

It would likely have to take the route similar to the spellsword paths where the specific nerfs to accommodate a different playstyle come through the paths. My thing is what would make a decent melee warlock? The closest things to a melee warlock is Path of the Blade, Eldritch Knight (which is essentially our spellsword), and Hexblade (which appears to have influenced our spellsword).

A potential revamp to Hexblade sounds more fitting to obtain the melee warlock we're hoping for.

However, the addition of the bonus temp HP has been a fantastic addition for the Undying/Path DI build.


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Re: Warlock Update : Discussion

Post by AnselHoenheim » Wed May 24, 2023 5:11 pm

Now that has passed some time after this warlock update and how their summons are near to impossible to remove, is there any reason why this feature is still existing? With everyone I have talked with about this, they all agree it's unnecesary and should require to be removed, or the stats of the summons affected by it nerfed properly, thus, months have passed and we are still in the same situation.

Is there any plan forward for nerfing it? For those who does not know, those warlocks who invest in the line of eldritch summons and get the epic eldritch summon path, their summons are resistant to WoF, and instead of removing them, they have to surpass a fortitude saving throw, this includes the eldritch summon feat, and the dark invocation gate.


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