Shadow writs on freelance short on exp

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Just did writs with someone else who was on the professional writs mode. Their total exp, besides having more upfront exp, when adding adventuring and upfront was greater than total of the freelance. In general it was really lack lust. I had skal amounts of upfront exp when doing freelance on skal. Like 2000 for one and 2500 for another.

[Skibbles]

I think freelance, in general, is lackluster and needs a more balanced reward between adventure and straight xp. That or it just needs to explicitly tell the player they'll probably level much slower if that's it's purpose - which is quite fine if it is. Clarity here would be nice.

A few months ago I started a PC on freelance and almost immediately regretted it. Now I'm doing a slight rebuild of the same class on the professional writ and leveling at a far more consistent and rewarding pace while still banking enough adventure xp for full ticks.

[AstralUniverse]

Which one was the 'low exp, high a.exp, high gold'? the freelance right? Anyway that one is a trap. Always go for the big insta exp reward if your goal is to level.

The difference in gold rewards is pretty much none existent when you consider that both paths have bad gold rewards anyway who dont affect your overall gold gain from your play time investment (unless you always run with a really huge party and no one is looting, I guess?), and the difference in adventure exp is a huge overkill and there's no shred of proportion between how much adventure exp they gain and how much of it they can realistically deplete (aka you need to play like 8+ hours a day to eat all of this potential exp, maybe even more). The main time freelance is worth it is if someone really hates going to dungeons in general and just wants to have to do that as little as possible and still get full hourly ticks. The other niche scenario which freelance might worth it is if a character is online many many hours per day. I'm pretty sure it's a trap for 90% of the playerbase.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Which one was the 'low exp, high a.exp, high gold'? the freelance right? Anyway that one is a trap. Always go for the big insta exp reward if your goal is to level.

The difference in gold rewards is pretty much none existent when you consider that both paths have bad gold rewards anyway who dont affect your overall gold gain from your play time investment (unless you always run with a really huge party and no one is looting, I guess?), and the difference in adventure exp is a huge overkill and there's no shred of proportion between how much adventure exp they gain and how much of it they can realistically deplete (aka you need to play like 8+ hours a day to eat all of this potential exp, maybe even more). The main time freelance is worth it is if someone really hates going to dungeons in general and just wants to have to do that as little as possible and still get full hourly ticks. The other niche scenario which freelance might worth it is if a character is online many many hours per day. I'm pretty sure it's a trap for 90% of the playerbase.

Yeah, I am aware of the trap philosophy. I just learned recently on discord there is a process to switch writ type. I will be doing that tonight when my cooldowns are done.

Regardless, the shadow writs are still bonked for freelance. Your total exp of immediate and adventuring is suppose to be higher on a freelance to compensate for the less immediate exp so that you can do writs/adventuring less often. This is not the case, your total pool of exp is less than a professional AND getting like only 2k to 3k immediate exp which some Skal writs will also do on freelance.

[Amateur Hour]

Which one was the 'low exp, high a.exp, high gold'? the freelance right? Anyway that one is a trap. Always go for the big insta exp reward if your goal is to level.

The entire reason freelancer writs were rolled out is that some players felt leveling is too fast, and freelancer writs allow them to actually play the game (even a commoner addict like me can admit the game is supposed to be about fighting stuff and exploring dungeons and slaying dragons...it's literally in the name) while slowing down their leveling. They are, specifically, for people whose goal is not to level fast. If you don't want to level more slowly, take the professional writ.

A better explanation may need to be added at time of writ selection if people aren't finding this clear, but it is the farthest thing from a problem when the freelance writ results in you leveling more slowly.

[AstralUniverse]

Which one was the 'low exp, high a.exp, high gold'? the freelance right? Anyway that one is a trap. Always go for the big insta exp reward if your goal is to level.

The entire reason freelancer writs were rolled out is that some players felt leveling is too fast, and freelancer writs allow them to actually play the game (even a commoner addict like me can admit the game is supposed to be about fighting stuff and exploring dungeons and slaying dragons...it's literally in the name) while slowing down their leveling. They are, specifically, for people whose goal is not to level fast. If you don't want to level more slowly, take the professional writ.

A better explanation may need to be added at time of writ selection if people aren't finding this clear, but it is the farthest thing from a problem when the freelance writ results in you leveling more slowly.

My problem is that it doesnt really seem to server anyone. People who just want to level slower can simply do writs less frequently. they shouldnt care about their adventure exp pool right? My argument is that the people this mode is designed for are simply people who dislike the dungeoning part of the game but even they just end up with way too much adventure exp disproportionate to their potential play time. A professional writ mode allows you to just spend a writ on some low level dungeon you skipped and still gain the whole thing as adventure exp so they dont really need to turn adventure exp mode on either. It would be less of a trap if the gold rewards were much higher imo.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

It was added for people who wanted to level slower, while keeping the speed of leveling for the 50%ish that didn't want the change. But Astral is right about the results despite its intent.

I personally was one of the people who wanted slower leveling, and I can't stop myself from going out dungeoning (I love that part of the game!), but I literally never take the option for that because of several reasons-

1) I've hit 300k adventure xp back in the day before these two were split. While adventure xp definitely has its good points, I always felt bad about getting that much. I can't really explain why, but having 200k + adventure xp stored up always bothered me. I much prefer the 0-10k pool I have now.

2) The gold is not an incentive.

3) The big one, dividing it into two different styles would have only really worked if those two styles played exclusively with each other. So, I take the slower one, run into a group down in the cordor crypts, we all get a long great and could be playing together for a while based on initial reactions and stuff. But they took the faster one. within a week, they are going to be level 14-18 depending on their speed and dungeon efficiency, and I am going to be level 11 -14 doing all the same things with them. It just doesn't work, even on a social players level.

So yeah, I think it was a nice try, but...

[Party in the forest at midnight]

While we're on the topic, I really dislike the names because it doesn't convey what each one is. I always get them mixed up. Why is professional the normal mode? Why is freelance reduced xp? I mean, ALL writs are basically freelance by definition of the word. You're not an employee for the adventuring company. You're doing odd jobs for them that you pick up.

Could the writ styles be changed to "standard contract" and "adventure contract"? Adventure xp is already a term, so it would be a lot more clear that an adventure contract is the option that gives more adventure xp.

[Rei_Jin]

Heck, call one “professional” and the other “casual”. Reflects that the first contract is for those focussed on the writs and leveling up, where the other is for those who want to be a bit more relaxed about it all.

[MissEvelyn]

Most of us who enjoy the Freelancer writ don't usually talk about it on the forums, so to say that it doesn't serve anyone is wrong. I myself take it on all my characters, and I know quite a few people who do the same.

Freelancer writs were created for those of us who prefer to play the game at a pace that feels more enjoyable to us. The reason both writ modes exist is so that they can cater to both the slow-walking Roleplayers and the RPR 0 Runners, with anything in between the two.

[Kriegos]

Anyway that one is a trap.

…(some assumptions that almost every player has the same goals and feelings on how to play)…

I'm pretty sure it's a trap for 90% of the playerbase.

Granted, one of your qualifiers is that if their goal is to level, it’s a trap. But seriously, that word. Trap. It’s like the fast-leveling focused players believe that the Arelith Team is trying to trick people into leveling slower. They’re not.

As Amateur Hour said, the different categories of writs exist because a lot of the community wanted slower leveling as an option. It certainly wasn’t something like 90% of people happy with the current leveling speed, with a mere 10% wanting slower levels. They polled us, and it was far closer to an even split than that, with leveling speed “good as it is” in a solid, but definitely not overwhelming, lead over slowing it down.

Freelance writs cater to those of us who think characters coming and being gone within a week is really fast, and to those of us who enjoy telling longer or slower stories. We don’t hate dungeons or adventures at all! We just like to spend a lot of time doing other things in addition to them.

If it’s not for you, that’s totally fine! Really! No sarcasm, no condescension, no shade thrown. It’s absolutely fine if you would never in a million years choose freelancing for your writs. It very much so is for more of us than some people may think, though.

[AstralUniverse]

I'm saying it's a trap because I cannot really detect any playstyle it is good for. I was very clear about this, I thought. If your goal is not to level fast, then the type of writ mode doesnt matter to you and this discussion makes no sense. The comparison I'm drawing is between the 2 modes, for players who want to level, but have different playstyles and things they like to do online (aka going to dungeons vs RPing in the city hall 4 hours straight, for example). I dont really see the point addressing players who dont want to level fast at all, because nothing stops them from just doing fewer writs.

[Wethrinea]

I have characters who do both type of writs, and I am very pleased by how the Freelancer (reduced XP) writs work.

As others have pointed out, the intention of Freelance writs is precisely to make leveling slower for those who also want to do writs. A big part of the Arelith experience is to team up with others to do writs, and having the option to do so at slower xp gain is a welcome one for me personally. You could always accompany others without taking the writ, but that takes a lot of the immersion out of the experience on my part. The other, and also very welcome, side of Freelance writs is the higher gp payout at early levels, which lets you do more things out-of-combat, like being a lender to fellow low levels, a merchant, crafter of more level appropriate gear, or as quest-giver in your own right.

I have done Skal both Freelance and Professional, and the main difference is that on Freelance I got to do all the content before reaching 16, while on Professional I had to do a combination of -adventure and asking a DM to de-level my char from 17 to 15, and still leave Skal at 17 with a few writs unfinished.

If anything, perhaps the gold payout could be revised at higher level writs to make them more worthwhile at that point. An extra 1000-3000 gold at pre level 10 is a huge boon, not so much at level 20+.

TLDR; Freelance XP works as intended (and wanted by a part of the player base I believe), and is not a trap.

[AstralUniverse]

I am very pleased by how the Freelancer (reduced XP) writs work.

Obviously I cant, and wont dismiss your personal experience..

But mathematically speaking, I think the people who enjoy doing writs but want to slower choosing Freelance, should end up with six digits of adventure exp unobtained when they reach level 30 and to me it just seems really off. I'll just reiterate that I think the gold rewards for Freelance should be higher.

[Kriegos]

I'm saying it's a trap because I cannot really detect any playstyle it is good for. I was very clear about this, I thought. If your goal is not to level fast, then the type of writ mode doesnt matter to you and this discussion makes no sense.

I guess my point wasn’t clear enough. The play style it’s good for is for people who want to go on adventures but not level as fast. The discussion makes plenty of sense because plenty of us enjoy the slower leveling experience as well as questing without having to artificially avoid adventure. The discussion could potentially lead to changes to a system that we enjoy in a way we wouldn’t, and so we’re weighing in. Yeah, there are other ways to avoid leveling, but Freelance Writs work very nicely for us as they are.

They seem like a bad option for people who are leveling-focused because they are a bad choice for them. But that’s not who they’re there for.

But mathematically speaking, I think the people who enjoy doing writs but want to slower choosing Freelance, should end up with six digits of adventure exp unobtained when they reach level 30 and to me it just seems really off.

I’m not sure where you’re getting your math, and it seems to come from assumptions on what all players should be doing with their time, but let me give you my personal experience since it may differ from those assumptions:

I RP a lot with my characters. In town, coming across travelers, or while delving dungeons. I love it, and it’s the reason I play on Arelith.

I play with -adventure on, and haven’t done a Professional writ character since freelance has been introduced, so my preferred settings have the potential for some VERY high adventure XP reserves.

I have never done any grinding in my time in Arelith, and I don’t ever plan to.

I have never gone over 100k adventure XP. Not even close. 30k at a stretch after a lot of adventures in short order, but it always trickles out. I’m in no rush, and there are plenty of things to do on a roleplaying server besides fighting stuff.

I’m not sure where you get the idea I should have more built up, but I never do because I just play the game way differently than you do. I absolutely do understand how someone could build up that much, but if it ever happened to me, I honestly wouldn’t care about the excess.

I hope that helps explain a bit of the perspective of us slowpokes.

TLDR; I agree with Wethrinea’s TLDR.

[AstralUniverse]

I’m not sure where you’re getting your math

I get my math from simply counting how many hours a player needs to be online to deplete their adventure exp pool assuming they are doing 3 writs per day and RPing the rest of the time and my conclusion is that it is not meant for people who enjoy doing writs, it's meant for people who hate going to dungeons and want to do it as least as possible. Unrelated, I dont judge your decision to level slower, but I also dont think you need a special writ mode to just level slower.

[Wethrinea]

Obviously I cant, and wont dismiss your personal experience..

But mathematically speaking, I think the people who enjoy doing writs but want to slower choosing Freelance, should end up with six digits of adventure exp unobtained when they reach level 30 and to me it just seems really off. I'll just reiterate that I think the gold rewards for Freelance should be higher.

I don't disagree that large pools of adventure XP is not very useful, but that is a problem I have on my chars that have professional writs too. My main sat at 80k adventure xp at level 30, with no obvious use for it either.

Nor do I disagree that gold rewards could be higher as character levels increase. But that is just a question of tweaking the system. Overall, I think, it works as intended and wanted.

[Amateur Hour]

I’m not sure where you’re getting your math

I get my math from simply counting how many hours a player needs to be online to deplete their adventure exp pool assuming they are doing 3 writs per day and RPing the rest of the time and my conclusion is that it is not meant for people who enjoy doing writs, it's meant for people who hate going to dungeons and want to do it as least as possible. I dont judge your decision to level slower, but I also dont think you need a special writ mode to just level slower.

It may be more useful if you're a higher RPR player; if you ever play a tandem character with a newcomer, the difference in your XP bank drain rate becomes pretty stark pretty fast.

And sure, no one needs it, but it's a nice QoL option for people who want it. I totally understand if it needs a name change or better explanation so people don't pick it unless they genuinely want to slow their leveling, but having it as an option doesn't hurt people who want to play at "normal pace".

[AstralUniverse]

I thought RPR doesnt change your adventure exp drain anymore.

[Amateur Hour]

I thought RPR doesnt change your adventure exp drain anymore.

The RPR formula for non-commoners below level 10 is as follows:

Code: Select all

total_tick_XP = free_XP + adventure_withdrawal

free_XP = 20 + RPR (+ 20 if Mark of Destiny)

adventure_withdrawal = 40 + RPR

At level 10 it becomes:

Code: Select all

total_tick_XP = free_XP + adventure_withdrawal

free_XP = 40 + RPR (+ 20 if Mark of Destiny)

adventure_withdrawal = 80 + RPR

So it does drain faster. It doesn't necessarily look like much on paper, but I've found that it can become a non-negligible difference in the early levels if you're trying to tandem with a new player who otherwise doesn't know what they're doing.

[Kriegos]

I get my math from simply counting how many hours a player needs to be online to deplete their adventure exp pool assuming they are doing 3 writs per day and RPing the rest of the time and my conclusion is that it is not meant for people who enjoy doing writs, it's meant for people who hate going to dungeons and want to do it as least as possible. Unrelated, I dont judge your decision to level slower, but I also dont think you need a special writ mode to just level slower.

I appreciate the explanation. No judgment felt, and thanks for clarifying your point of view! Allow me to clarify a few things in turn.

It’s not a special writ mode, it’s just an alternative for an alternative way to play. Plenty of people use it, and having the choice is nice. It provides some nice flexibility.

Nobody needs writs, full stop. They’re a fairly new addition to Arelith, in fact. They’re nice to have, but the server existed for a very long time without them. Saying there’s no need for two styles of writs is splitting hairs. Yeah, there are ways to level slower, but it’s fun have the character get an adventuring contract and get paid for it. It’s also nice to have some arrows pointing to a place that’s about right difficulty for a character, or sends them looking for a place they may not be aware existed.

Doing three writs a day until 30? A lot of us don’t. We just don’t feel any need do the absolute maximum number of writs, or even any, each time we log in. It’s still very nice to have them there, though.

You keep saying it, and I’m sure it’s true for some people, but in general it’s been my experience that we slowpokes really, truly don’t hate dungeons. We just do a lot of other stuff with out time online, too. We definitely don’t hate doing them, though.

Appreciate the back and forth on this! It’s been interesting.

[Skibbles]

I support multiple ways to approach the leveling process, but I think the adventure contract could really use a more clear explanation on what it's design purpose is in game and doesn't necessarily need to be mechanically changed.

I think that's why some people are referring to it as a 'trap', because the fact it is for much slower leveling isn't exactly mentioned when read in the dialogue window. If two players new to Arelith both make new characters with the intention of exploring the world together, and each picks a different contract type, then one of them was definitely trapped as their friend rockets out of their level range.

It may be more preferable to specifically highlight, in game, that the intention is deliberately for a slower leveling experience. A little clarity might save players, new and old, the frustration highlighted here.

[Eyeliner]

I get the idea and it seems well suited for a character who wants to stay on Skal as long as possible and do occasional writs to keep the adventure XP pool up then spend the rest of the time in town. I might even try that some time.

IMO the quality of RP you get at low levels on Arelith proper isn't worth staying there longer than you have to. I mean there's not really any benefit or unique experience if you're level 10 instead of 20 and if you want to play "lowly and new" you can do that at any level. That's something that I'd love to see changed, so you'd have benefits to staying low level longer instead of rushing to epics, but I don't see it now unless you're running with a specific crew and everyone stays the same pace (which I've never seen work personally, RL schedule always gets in the way). To each their own though- if someone gets enjoyment out of the slow freelance writ pace then all the power to them, we're here to have fun after all.

I guess I'd also say the naming could be clearer and warning that this means very slow leveling. I'm also not sure why you couldn't be allowed to switch from one style to the other if you decide you picked wrong, I mean there may be some perceived exploity advantage but I can't imagine it's that bad.

[Skibbles]

I'm also not sure why you couldn't be allowed to switch from one style to the other if you decide you picked wrong, I mean there may be some perceived exploity advantage but I can't imagine it's that bad.

Just FYI you can do this now!

It was recent update just a month ago, but I think the summary is that: if you wait for the writ cooldown to be able to take them again, you can instead tear up the contract and then take the other one. I'm not sure if you have to wait for a second cooldown period or not before taking a new one. Maybe someone can weigh in on that here.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

So my feedback was less about nuances/usefulnes of professional vs freelance

And more than freelance shadow writs are simply wrong. Freelance writs have a larger total pool by principle of less upfront. This is the opposite for shadow writs. Less upfront and less total pool.

Anyways, the writ paper change requires you wait 57 hours. So I will do that soon!