Rock Paper Shotgun: pvp meta thoughts

[Naghast]

So. This is gonna be a lengthy one. And i really want to know people's thoughts on this. And i really, really hope it doesn't get to pot-shots too quickly.

A lot of ppl on discord have been mentioning that pvp is oftentimes "rocket tag", and me personally, i've expressed my scorching hatred to split-second victories in pvp, but i never really delved deeper into it. Specifically:
I firmly, strongly believe, that blitzkrieg PVP is a major problem, not just due to annoyance/no-fun factor. (Please bear with me here.)

By blitzkrieg PVP i mean, either:
Ability to instantly (opening flurry + instant attack) delete around 65-100% of target's maximum health
OR
ability to instantly disable someone for more than long enough, or just savecheck to outright kill them.
Or anything really that results in a similar thing: you kinda win in around 2 seconds.

Now, why is it an issue.
Because it heavily encourages twitchiness. The looming thought that "if i make a single mistake, or i let my opponent start a fight first, attack first, or dispel and save-check me with my save buffs removed, i will die." can very easily make people panic and instantly react to someone hitting hostile. Furthermore, it encourages plays like:
Approaching someone, to "can kiss your neck" distance, during the pre-pvp RP, before really "responding", a.k.a interacting, which i personally see as a light abuse of the pre-pvp RP rule.
Starting the encounter with "if you move/approach me/do X i will attack", etc.

In general, it, in my opinion, makes people fairly trigger - happy. And i do not think that's a good thing.
Also, from my experience, ₁₀ second fights have been very underwhelming. It just felt like my opponent lost a stat check, and that's about it.

Now, that problem, of instant win in form of DAMAGE, may receive responses of me being a moron. Reason:
It is, sometimes, seen as a SOLUTION to ANOTHER problem, which is:
in-combat sustain.

We've got potions. We've got scrolls of gresto. We've got trinkets that let us cast cure spells, regen, and etc. Heal pots were rightfully nerfed (with a slight annoyance that if you miss the line in combat log of how much soberity you have left you can literally kill yourself), but there's still a lot of other options left around. They're SIGNIFICANTLY less powerful than heal potions, yes, but they still can contribute to one's survivability greatly (talking about healing draughts. I can say from experience that, against a caster, after you nulled their summons, they can come in handy). And nuclear damage output is a solution to that. You can't outheal a weaponmaster's damage, after all. Nor can you outheal a lucky streak of... any x3 crit mult crits, really.

And these two issues feed into one another, in my opinion.
You can't reduce the damage too much, otherwise it'll get to the point where having 2 stacks of healing draughts and ₃₀ heal pots is going to turn every engagement into a battle of wallets.
But leaving the damage as it is, just contributes severely to essentially the rock-paper-SHOTGUN pvp. Which i just personally find very underwhelming when it happens.

And yes i know i didn't said too much about it, but save-or-lose (a.k.a save-or-suck and save-or-die) spells are also a big problem. I don't think i need to say too much about it though. It's rather obvious why losing in 2 seconds because you rolled a 5% chance to instantly suck is just downright unfun, and why having your spells do nothing 95% of the time is also extremely unfun.

I'll present my ideas for solutions later.

What're your thoughts?

[AskRyze]

I agree that time to kill is an issue at the moment, but a mote pressing issue IMO that is pushing the damage meta is the sheer obsolescence of saving throw spells. 90% of spells do jack all to someone if you pass the save. Anyone who's worth killing has nearly +40 modifier on all their saving throws if they are even moderately geared.

When you cannot disable an opponent, you must therefore kill him before he kills you. Thus, the damage creep meta.

[Shadowy Reality]

I agree that time to kill is an issue at the moment, but a mote pressing issue IMO that is pushing the damage meta is the sheer obsolescence of saving throw spells. 90% of spells do jack all to someone if you pass the save. Anyone who's worth killing has nearly +40 modifier on all their saving throws if they are even moderately geared.

When you cannot disable an opponent, you must therefore kill him before he kills you. Thus, the damage creep meta.

Casters are generally not the classes being mentioned in the shotgun meta. They do have some tools and combos that can achieve this effect, but not all and not frequently.

Typically when it comes to shotgun one is looked at builds with at least 5 levels of Weaponmaster, as those are the biggest offenders for big numbers. Weaponmasters will do anywhere from 120 to 200 on critical hits, and fully buffed they can throw 3 attacks in their oppening flurry, if all of those are critical hits, someone is likely dead without having a chance to move.

There are other classes that can achieve these numbers, namely sneakers, but there they are dependent on that target being flat-footed or flanked, which is harder to achieve.

I entirely agree with the OP, I frequently mention around that damage is too high in Arelith. The typical counter argument is that if it was any lower there would be no kill pressure, it would take too long to kill someone, as they could outheal almost all damage. This always seemed to me to show that the problem is healing.

There is nothing fun in losing in the first round of two of combat, even before you have had time to do anything. I have advocated for ages for WMs to lose their multiplier feat and instead be given AB as a compensation.

[Slapstick]

I agree that lengthier PvP would probably be more fun, so that there's more options for play, counter-play, and skillfull use of abilities, spells, etc. It's probably not ideal to balance kill time for PvP and PvE the same.
I'm not sure what's possible on a technical perspective, but cutting all player vs. player damage in half and also making it so that if you've taken pvp damage you only receive half healing from all sources, would be a brute force solution to extend the pvp time.
I don't know what's possible script-wise, but differentiating spell effects on players vs. monsters would also be better imo. Make the disabler spells allow for a saving throw every round for players, and keep them save-or-suck for monsters (and do away with the spellcraft bonus to saves at the same time). Make the insta-kill spells do 100% of the damage over [3-5] rounds, but keep them save or die for monsters.

[AstralUniverse]

We tried lengthy pvp approach and guess what. We hadnt seen a 2handed weapon on Arelith for several years because everyone had 65+ ac and it was pretty sad time (but good time for div and monk dips). I think right now we have pretty good balance between sustain and burst sources. The op builds are usually sword and board and got some special insta-attack but some classes can still make 2handed weapons appealing (arguably), and I think dexers are becoming good again as we speak.

[-XXX-]

Unfortunately, the balance here is between twitchy shotgun non-encounters and the Benny Hill meta. Longer PvP encounters =/= more fun.

[Helsing]

I agree that time to kill is an issue at the moment, but a mote pressing issue IMO that is pushing the damage meta is the sheer obsolescence of saving throw spells. 90% of spells do jack all to someone if you pass the save. Anyone who's worth killing has nearly +40 modifier on all their saving throws if they are even moderately geared.

When you cannot disable an opponent, you must therefore kill him before he kills you. Thus, the damage creep meta.

Casters are generally not the classes being mentioned in the shotgun meta. They do have some tools and combos that can achieve this effect, but not all and not frequently.

Casters can absolutely archive the same shotgun meta with Epic Summon: Weapon Master, well I'm joking with the name but yes Conduit and Undead Skeleton stream with skeleton archers can archive the same numbers in very short of time. Also casters have burst combo like mords x2 + timestop + hellball + greater ruin + igms at the very same time when their summons attacking.

[-XXX-]

Casters can absolutely archive the same shotgun meta with Epic Summon: Weapon Master, well I'm joking with the name but yes Conduit and Undead Skeleton stream with skeleton archers can archive the same numbers in very short of time. Also casters have burst combo like mords x2 + timestop + hellball + greater ruin + igms at the very same time when their summons attacking.

Hasted spellcaster sporting fully buffed and hasted formians: full round of summon swinging vs AC54 (Av 260) +2x IGMS (MaV 120) = 500 damage
Evocation combo : timestop + hellball (MaV 140) + 3xIGMS (MaV 120) = 500 damage.

Shotgun builds can do more damage than that in their first flurry alone, not even talking about a full round of swinging.
Just because casters can still deal a lot of damage does not mean that they are in the same DPS tier.

---

Back to the topic at hand: it would be worth pointing out that -prays is instanteous, so technically player characters do have DOUBLE the hp pool that is shown on their character sheet.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

The only thing I agree with in the op is the point about delaying a response to get into position. It's bad enough when it's just a weapons master moving forward in a one vs one fight, the larger the groups involved the more insane it gets as everyone moves into optimal position while the tank pretends like they are responding. I would like to see moving into position be considered a hostile action similar to casting buffs are personally, to try and avoid this sort of thing more.

As for the shotguns, the server needs them. Yes, there are some classes that can never beat them one vs one, but is that a bad thing? As far as I can tell the only thing that stops people from giving these builds their proper respect and fear is pride on the player side. I don't have any sympathy for that, its ok to roleplay being scared of the scary builds.

And I promise you, unless they do get super lucky not only rolling three straight crits but hitting me on all three attacks (remember even hasted that the third attack would be at -5) and I'm playing a dex build with stealth? Yeah, I'm going to win. It's just going to take me a half hour, and it's going to be miserable for the weapon master. While not as effective as corner stealthing, greater sanctuary into wind up for a battle cleric can lead to the same result, me winning. I say it's not effective because you never know when a weapons master randomly has 80 lore for a mords scroll, or even just a gem of nullification on hand.

That's not to say that some tweaks couldn't be made. Something that pops into my head right away is when a wizard casts premonition on themselves it goes up to +6 to bust it, but doesn't apply to scrolls or a cleric's domain casting. That would mean a 25/5 would have to use a non crit heavy weapon (falchion rapier scimitar) to get a +4 weapon pushing them to +6, but folks smarter than me would have to sort out whether that was a viable option.

Ultimately though, I think the solution really comes down to rp over pvp when you feel like you are outclassed. And if someone just wants to kill folks no matter what you say or do, you use lynch mob justice to set them straight. If they keep coming back from that, well, that seems like the best reason for a MoD ever. But honestly, I think if people learned how to rp fear of death a little better instead of letting their personal pride dictate their characters actions, things would be better in general.

[Helsing]

Casters can absolutely archive the same shotgun meta with Epic Summon: Weapon Master, well I'm joking with the name but yes Conduit and Undead Skeleton stream with skeleton archers can archive the same numbers in very short of time. Also casters have burst combo like mords x2 + timestop + hellball + greater ruin + igms at the very same time when their summons attacking.

Hasted spellcaster sporting fully buffed and hasted formians: full round of summon swinging vs AC54 (Av 260) +2x IGMS (MaV 120) = 500 damage
Evocation combo : timestop + hellball (MaV 140) + 3xIGMS (MaV 120) = 500 damage.

Shotgun builds can do more damage than that in their first flurry alone, not even talking about a full round of swinging.
Just because casters can still deal a lot of damage does not mean that they are in the same DPS tier.

---

Back to the topic at hand: it would be worth pointing out that -prays is instanteous, so technically player characters do have DOUBLE the hp pool that is shown on their character sheet.

First of all, 25/5 scimitar standard wm cannot reach 500 damage per flurry, it has to be a x4 weapon 23/7.

Secondly, A normal WM has ab of 50 vs a standard caster like div sorc/invoker has 60+ ac, your 500 damage in a flurry is very low chance and is absolutely exaggerating. If you wanna include TS potion, then it's not just a flurry, its drink pot + flurry. While most ppls' action toward TS is run away.

Thirdly, when it's wm vs caster, normally casters are hasted at begining, while wm has to drink Haste pot first, so it's Haste + TS for the first round, then flurry, you are IGNORING the wind up for wm. When you are doing your windup, caster can already double mords you and when you approach, they timestop use acid fog to slow you down then do the kill combo.

Also nwn is a DnD game, it's d20, so if you get unlucky and get 500 dam in a flurry, accept it.

[-XXX-]

you are IGNORING the wind up for wm

Saying that and then proceeding to outline how the numbers check out against a fully warded and hasted spellcaster with divine shield and buffed summons out is funny. Spellcasters do not exist in a perpetual state of combat readiness and their windup is much longer than that of a melee build.

The entire point of shotgun builds is disrupting their opponent's windup and preventing the encounter from getting into stages where they might end up fighting an uphill battle. While a valid form of tempo-based balance, being on the receiving end of it is rarely fun, which this entire thread is all about.

That being said, asking to make NWN PvP a fun experience for everybody is quite a tall order. Personally I'm OK with the way things are.

[Spriggan Bride]

I think this would be a far better game if players were far more difficult to kill and fights lasted longer and had more chance of ending in stalemate or one party escaping. If kills were more rare and difficult they might mean a lot more. I know that's not happening, but one can dream...

[Kalthariam]

Everyone mentions it should be RP > PvP.

But in my experience, PvP overrules RP far more often than not. To the point people will outright tell you that if you do not plan your builds to include being "PvP prepared", then you are stupid, and will be worthless, and you might as well not even exist.

People with PvP meta builds will always dominate the RP scenes, because PvP is so prevalent on Arelith. People are way too focused as a whole on PvP, Conflict, and Wars. No amount of RP builds are going to overtake a PvP build, doesn't matter how big of a mob you get together. You'd have to find someone else whom build a character specifically for PvP and make friends with them and hope they are better than the first person.

I've always been of the opinion PvP is too prevalent and used far too often for conflict resolution and forcing storylines. Finding reasons to force PvP is too easy, One line PvP is too common, people refusing to get actual "Outs" for people happens all the time, people outright lying about giving outs and attacking you anyways happens all the time.

PvP is too heavily focused on this server and in my opinion it's deteriorating the RP of the server, because everyone whether they want to or not, basically is forced into the PvP arms race if they ever want to be remotely relevant. Not to mention there's a reason people constantly joke "RP starts at 30" because before then you basically do not have the experience or resources to remotely defend yourself.

Your more than free to disagree with me, but I am quite firm in my opinion, and think the server would benefit greatly from enforcing some rules that force people to slow down on PvP-Focused conflict. The 48 Hour rule was a good move in my opinion.

I do recognize that sometimes PvP really is the only recourse, but I feel like some people take that to the extreme and that they spread that to more situations than is really nessessary. :\

[Marquis_andras]

Everyone mentions it should be RP > PvP.

But in my experience, PvP overrules RP far more often than not. To the point people will outright tell you that if you do not plan your builds to include being "PvP prepared", then you are stupid, and will be worthless, and you might as well not even exist.

People with PvP meta builds will always dominate the RP scenes, because PvP is so prevalent on Arelith. People are way too focused as a whole on PvP, Conflict, and Wars. No amount of RP builds are going to overtake a PvP build, doesn't matter how big of a mob you get together. You'd have to find someone else whom build a character specifically for PvP and make friends with them and hope they are better than the first person.

I've always been of the opinion PvP is too prevalent and used far too often for conflict resolution and forcing storylines. Finding reasons to force PvP is too easy, One line PvP is too common, people refusing to get actual "Outs" for people happens all the time, people outright lying about giving outs and attacking you anyways happens all the time.

PvP is too heavily focused on this server and in my opinion it's deteriorating the RP of the server, because everyone whether they want to or not, basically is forced into the PvP arms race if they ever want to be remotely relevant. Not to mention there's a reason people constantly joke "RP starts at 30" because before then you basically do not have the experience or resources to remotely defend yourself.

Your more than free to disagree with me, but I am quite firm in my opinion, and think the server would benefit greatly from enforcing some rules that force people to slow down on PvP-Focused conflict. The 48 Hour rule was a good move in my opinion.

I do recognize that sometimes PvP really is the only recourse, but I feel like some people take that to the extreme and that they spread that to more situations than is really nessessary. :\

I agree with this completely, and could not have described it any better myself.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Everyone mentions it should be RP > PvP.

But in my experience, PvP overrules RP far more often than not. To the point people will outright tell you that if you do not plan your builds to include being "PvP prepared", then you are stupid, and will be worthless, and you might as well not even exist.

People with PvP meta builds will always dominate the RP scenes, because PvP is so prevalent on Arelith. People are way too focused as a whole on PvP, Conflict, and Wars. No amount of RP builds are going to overtake a PvP build, doesn't matter how big of a mob you get together. You'd have to find someone else whom build a character specifically for PvP and make friends with them and hope they are better than the first person.

I've always been of the opinion PvP is too prevalent and used far too often for conflict resolution and forcing storylines. Finding reasons to force PvP is too easy, One line PvP is too common, people refusing to get actual "Outs" for people happens all the time, people outright lying about giving outs and attacking you anyways happens all the time.

PvP is too heavily focused on this server and in my opinion it's deteriorating the RP of the server, because everyone whether they want to or not, basically is forced into the PvP arms race if they ever want to be remotely relevant. Not to mention there's a reason people constantly joke "RP starts at 30" because before then you basically do not have the experience or resources to remotely defend yourself.

Your more than free to disagree with me, but I am quite firm in my opinion, and think the server would benefit greatly from enforcing some rules that force people to slow down on PvP-Focused conflict. The 48 Hour rule was a good move in my opinion.

I do recognize that sometimes PvP really is the only recourse, but I feel like some people take that to the extreme and that they spread that to more situations than is really nessessary. :\

I think a lot of what you wrote may still apply, but I get the sense it's getting better as we start to see more dm/player plots cropping up. And that, at least in my not so humble opinion, is the key to making pvp a sidebar. Human beings for the most part have the instinct to compete, and when the only form of competition is pvp like it was for a few years there, you end up getting into a lot of pvp.

That being said, maybe I am just lucky, but there was never a situation where I couldn't get out of a fight even when the pvp mania was at its height. And I have played a fair bit of assholes that generally generated hate as a response. Often it just came down to giving them the "win" by showing deference when I was clearly outmatched through roleplay.

[Biolab00]

you are IGNORING the wind up for wm

Saying that and then proceeding to outline how the numbers check out against a fully warded and hasted spellcaster with divine shield and buffed summons out is funny. Spellcasters do not exist in a perpetual state of combat readiness and their windup is much longer than that of a melee build.

The entire point of shotgun builds is disrupting their opponent's windup and preventing the encounter from getting into stages where they might end up fighting an uphill battle. While a valid form of tempo-based balance, being on the receiving end of it is rarely fun, which this entire thread is all about.

That being said, asking to make NWN PvP a fun experience for everybody is quite a tall order. Personally I'm OK with the way things are.

More often than not, players overlooked 'distance'. When i was playing a Wizard toon, several years back, i would always keep a clear distance from my opponent. Especially when the interaction was already tilting towards PVP which is possible to sense as you RP. When they would walk a few steps forward, i would use "WASD" to move a few steps backward. I'll always keep a certain distance so that i can always cast either Timestop or Greater Sanctuary without the chance of being caught.

That being said, this is the main reason why Rogues / Sneaks are terrible opponents because they can easily interupt the spell casting by the first sneak attack from their stealth and unless you cast True sight, they're almost impossible to spot even if they're right beside you. Assuming that it's a party of three that you're facing BUT, you had only conversed with the two that was seen. The third is still effectively legit to PVP once the encounter begins despite them, not even saying a word because they're the same party.

Still, i've not actually been through much PVP situation due to the timezone that i'm playing. In fact, my PVP encounter does not even exceed 10 times within these 5 years that i played.

RP > PVP is accurate. Assuming that you've played 6 hours per day on the server. PVP perhaps only count as 30 minutes.
Effectively, RP has always > PVP but it's often overlooked because the impact of a PVP result and daily RP session were never the same.

If one is to argue that the players' plot that forces PVP is a problem. My only answer is -
RP is not PVP
PVP however, can be RP.