Open Lock Skill Revisited

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Open Lock Skill Revisited

Post by Good Character » Tue Mar 07, 2023 11:58 pm

This is in reference to: viewtopic.php?f=51&p=317830#p317830

Another suggestion has already propped up to attempt to address the incoming nerf to the pixie familiar, but I want to touch on the issue as a whole: open lock and its affect on the economy.

Locked treasure chests have been a staple and iconic portion of D&D. However, PnP has directly catered to that renown because parties would more than likely have a rogue or rogue-esque character within a permanent party. This however is not the case for a persistent, online world. Regardless, this is not a new subject matter and has been spoken on time and time again throughout the years on this subforum.

What's are the issues?
The issues are multifaceted but it's a domino effect, nonetheless.

I am bringing it up again as I personally feel it's a topic that hasn't been properly addressed still but now has been exacerbated further by the pixie change. Why? The usual dismissal of the open lock issue is that you just own a gear set with open/disable lock on it. The ones who griped about this were martials, so they tended to inherently have Strength or geared for Strength to increase their damage; aside from Hexblade and Spellsword, spellcasters don't have this luxury.

Currently, the most impressive and common use of open lock is runic chests. Admittedly, a lot of spellcasters can solo runic dungeons. Regardless of opinion, objectively this is a good in one case. Why? Despite the game's age we have an ever-growing playerbase and characters that are being cycled through. These characters rely on runic materials to gain the deliberately planned balancing in PvP. Runic materials are already random; limiting how commonly runic materials are found will inevitably lead to the hyperinflation we initially saw with runic materials when artefacts were cycled out in favor of runic materials. We still even face obscene inflation today, especially with the nerfs to gold earning (though, that's meant for an entirely different topic).

There are five classes that have access to Open Lock; three are locked behind applications. That leaves Rogue and Vigilante. Rogue is in and has been in an unattractive spot. Vigilante has been looking pretty good but that's a single class trying to serve the entire server.

How Open Lock should work
Open Lock should act similarly to skills like Sail and Climb; it's a nonessential but highly incentivized skill. Dungeons should have two means of "unlocking" chests: defeating enemies, accessing a key on the enemy that unlocks a room and all the chests inside are unlocked, or a room is hidden, can be located with Search or Spot and all the chests inside must be unlocked with Open Lock. I am of the opinion that Knock should be further nerfed or entirely removed to compensate this change.

This gives martials and spellcasters a means to earning gold without relying on a rogue-esque character, yet rogue-esque characters can still double-dip and be a true bonus to a party rather than a necessary evil.

Was the pixie nerf needed?
I could argue yes in the right situation. I think the current situation of the server has me obviously leaning towards no.

As pointed out in the suggestion aforementioned (which you can find here: viewtopic.php?f=15&p=317832&sid=af3d874 ... ac#p317832), familiars are bad. People see them and immediately treat them as wet sponges whether your familiar is a hell hound, yeth hound, or will-o'-wisp. There are objectively only three decent familiars: pixie, pseudodragon, and eyeball.

One of the reasons given for the pixie nerf was the hope to see other familiars used. I definitely would have agreed with this before the -familiar command came out and allowed pixies to be transformed into other creatures. However, it's a non-case now with the fantastic addition of -familiar.


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Re: Open Lock Skill Revisited

Post by Spriggan Bride » Wed Mar 08, 2023 12:06 am

Some of the "you need a special key..." doors could be re-thought so a rogue with maxed out open lock (and a one time use crafted skeleton key?) could bypass them. That's a really loose suggestion and isn't one size fits all but I think a rogue benefit could be bypassing or overriding the mechanics of some dungeons.


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Re: Open Lock Skill Revisited

Post by Good Character » Wed Mar 08, 2023 12:50 am

The reason I hesitate to include that exception is because it hasn't work in practice on other servers. It gives rogue a huge advantage because they can ninjaloot both spots.


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Re: Open Lock Skill Revisited

Post by -XXX- » Wed Mar 08, 2023 2:09 am

Open lock can be substituted with the knock spell.
Disable trap investment is still needed to access loot in chests.

Wizards won't really care about a pixie nerf - they have skill points for days and with a ranger dip they can get disable trap as class skill.
It will be bad for sorcerers though.


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Re: Open Lock Skill Revisited

Post by Amateur Hour » Wed Mar 08, 2023 2:39 am

-XXX- wrote:
Wed Mar 08, 2023 2:09 am

Wizards won't really care about a pixie nerf - they have skill points for days and with a ranger dip they can get disable trap as class skill.
It will be bad for sorcerers though.

This was my first thought. Sorcerers already got a disproportionate nerf with the change to summon warding; this would just be another (and spellmageddon was basically useless for sorcerers anyway since there's so little wiggle room in spell selection). Unless the plan is to make classic sorcerers completely disappear in favor of invokers (which may be the server intention; I don't know) something needs to give.

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Re: Open Lock Skill Revisited

Post by MischeviousMeerkat » Wed Mar 08, 2023 3:17 am

Sorcerers are considered the optimal PvP build so a lack of quality of life tracks with the rest of optimal builds.


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Re: Open Lock Skill Revisited

Post by I will never sleep » Wed Mar 08, 2023 5:09 am

I will just state the blunt point of view. In a single player module? Traps and locks are fine. They can be interesting. In a multiplayer PW? Traps and locks are beyond tedious and add absolutely nothing to the game, other than some hoops to jump through to loot.

For a time we enjoyed getting "full loot" (there was no search check if you did this) for just bashing chests, but it was promptly fixed after a few months.

Even in the example of the Rogue. Most rogues only have 1 ol/dt unless you are a quarterbreaker or just hate your skill points. They still have to gear swap. The game mechanic you are engaging with is carrying 10 extra gear items and continuously switching back and forth. This is mostly because the highest dc of trap or lock you will encounter (on a chest) is something like 40. Easy enough to hit with some items on a take 20 skill.

It's tedious as hell, and in the past when this came up Irongron had just said something like "Sucks to suck, that's NWN!"

Which I have to say, is not true. When you swapped in the vanilla game... it was not to open a box. It was to swap to say, a fear immune belt for an area where fear was a problem. Or an item that provided cold resistance in an area where cold damage was a real problem. The paradigm here is completely different in terms of gameplay and reward.

--

In the past there was also the stated point that, if you don't mind the quote:

I like to play rogues and rangers, the majority of characters I've made have been one or partly one. But I've never felt excited that "I can use my skills now that we've beat the boss!"; if anything it's more annoying that you /have/ to take Open Lock/Disable Trap; and that anyone with 10 pieces of gear and a knock wand is as good at something you invested in; or every wizard gets it for free.

And there is two takes for this. Either let everyone do it for free (chestbashing), or double down on it hard and restrict it more and more. We are already careening towards the latter, with the soft-confirmed pixie nerf. Why not remove open lock and disable trap from dweomering as well? That way you have to group up and take a specialist, right?!

I can't say I am a fan. At all. I don't think that being rewarded for having disable trap/open lock is bad design at all (otherwise there is no point to taking disable trap/open lock), but locking all the rewards behind traps/locks isn't a good design either. Having open lock/disable trap should mean more loot on top of what you already get for finishing a dungeon, the loot itself shouldn't be locked by that requirement.

But that is, as always. My opinion.


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Re: Open Lock Skill Revisited

Post by Slapstick » Wed Mar 08, 2023 6:31 am

Locked and trapped chests add nothing, absolutely nothing, but tedium and inconvenience. It is not an engaging or thematically enjoyable mechanic to carry 10 extra pieces of gear.

Dungeon spoils cannot be made unavailable unless you bring a rogue, so instead they have to be attainable by any single adventurer.

The implementation of search is a perfect example of "useful, thematic, non-essential" skill. Frankly I think search offers what is needed for loot hunting. Appraise is another skill that adds value and is thematic.
Aside from convenience, Open lock has the occasional shortcut functionality. Trap disarming saves some hit points but also generates traps for rogues to use later. Isn't this enough? Do we need 4 skills devoted to increasing loot? And by the way, the two last ones don't - they are just there to make you carry extra gear.

If we can't find a good implementation of the skills, it doesn't follow that a bad one is necessary.

What would we lose by removing locks and traps from chests? Nothing in my estimation. It would simply mean I don't have to fiddle with gear for a couple of minutes when encountering chests and my 6 str gnome could carry a couple more healing kits. It would be a relief, and have no impact on the effort or skill it takes to complete a dungeon, or on my incentive to form a party.

A compromise would be to keep it as is, but never lock/trap runic/boss chests. Then it's optional and gives more non-essential loot.

Another option could be, if technically possible, to make unlocking chests possible with any number of skill points, it just takes longer the bigger the difference is between Skill and DC.

Having Knock and a new consumable that removes traps able to deal with any and all chests with locks/traps could be an option too. It's a gold sink the game might have benefit from. Said consumables should be available from general stores but at a markup from what it would cost players to make it.

I hope this doesn't read too negative. Thanks to the team for all your hard work 🙏!


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Re: Open Lock Skill Revisited

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Wed Mar 08, 2023 7:11 am

There are some potential plans of including chests in the game with higher DC locks and traps but also better loot.

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Re: Open Lock Skill Revisited

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Mar 08, 2023 7:48 am

MischeviousMeerkat wrote:
Wed Mar 08, 2023 3:17 am

Sorcerers are considered the optimal PvP build so a lack of quality of life tracks with the rest of optimal builds.

What you're saying makes sense.... on paper... but in reality you reach a point you just barely see any sorcerers around except XXX because strong class =/= fun class as many op mundane builds have proven already.

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Re: Open Lock Skill Revisited

Post by Scylon » Wed Mar 08, 2023 12:20 pm

Was Pixie nerf needed? Probably.

But over all it will just highlight the fact familiars are farkin terrible. Pixie was the only choice. the rest are hot garbage. Dragon might have been ok, but true seeing was striped. And the save vs bolts ruined all the other stuff.

I think the Familiars over all need an overhaul. each one needs to do a job of some sort, to fill a role. though it should only been in a half assed sense. like a support for a summon/player as to not take their place.


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Re: Open Lock Skill Revisited

Post by -XXX- » Wed Mar 08, 2023 4:14 pm

Slapstick wrote:
Wed Mar 08, 2023 6:31 am

Locked and trapped chests add nothing, absolutely nothing, but tedium and inconvenience.

This is not entirely true - locks and traps on chests prevent people form simply ignoring the spawns, looting the treasure and leaving without defeating the boss. Treasure has its own respawn timer to prevent excessive looting, so it's separated from the boss spawn's loot by design.

As a byproduct, this represents a skill tax - looting treasure is a quintessential part any dungeon crawl experience (it's the main reason why our plucky adventurers venture into these dangerous places after all) and nobody's going to just waive their character's ability to access treasure after finishing a dungeon.

MischeviousMeerkat wrote:
Wed Mar 08, 2023 3:17 am

Sorcerers are considered the optimal PvP build so a lack of quality of life tracks with the rest of optimal builds.

This might have been true once, but simply isn't anymore (hasn't been for a while now).
The ever increasing emphasis on skills gave Wizards an entirely new identity and they are becoming more relevant thanks to their increased flexibility.
At the same time Invokers are just better Sorcerers - better DPS, better defense, better QoL.


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Re: Open Lock Skill Revisited

Post by Amateur Hour » Wed Mar 08, 2023 4:47 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Wed Mar 08, 2023 4:14 pm
Slapstick wrote:
Wed Mar 08, 2023 6:31 am

Locked and trapped chests add nothing, absolutely nothing, but tedium and inconvenience.

This is not entirely true - locks and traps on chests prevent people form simply ignoring the spawns, looting the treasure and leaving without defeating the boss. Treasure has its own respawn timer to prevent excessive looting, so it's separated from the boss spawn's loot by design.

As a byproduct, this represents a skill tax - looting treasure is a quintessential part any dungeon crawl experience (it's the main reason why our plucky adventurers venture into these dangerous places after all) and nobody's going to just waive their character's ability to access treasure after finishing a dungeon.

MischeviousMeerkat wrote:
Wed Mar 08, 2023 3:17 am

Sorcerers are considered the optimal PvP build so a lack of quality of life tracks with the rest of optimal builds.

This might have been true once, but simply isn't anymore (hasn't been for a while now).
The ever increasing emphasis on skills gave Wizards an entirely new identity and they are becoming more relevant thanks to their increased flexibility.
At the same time Invokers are just better Sorcerers - better DPS, better defense, better QoL.

Would like to emphasize the bottom part. Wizards do have to plan a spellbook, but they have a much bigger spell roster, more skill points, arcane flux (so effectively more spell slots), and four more selectable feats.

Invokers have a narrower spell roster, but they get near-infinicast (if you're smart about it), extra saves/skills/immunities depending on the path, and three useful feats for free. They don't have a familiar at all, but if you remove the pixie utility, that's the biggest perk of vanilla sorcerer gone.

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Re: Open Lock Skill Revisited

Post by Yvesza » Wed Mar 08, 2023 5:14 pm

I'd love to see a good incentive for investing into OL/DT, part of me is just worried DC's will be increased to make the 1/1 split impossible and rewards will remain as they are. With that said having a meta based around the idea that you'll switch into OL/DT gear is not great, gear set bloat is a terrible sin.

Hopefully it all works out, even if pixies have to get caught in the crossfire.


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Re: Open Lock Skill Revisited

Post by MissEvelyn » Wed Mar 08, 2023 5:59 pm

I would love for the spell Knock* to make an Open Lock check instead of flat out opening locks. It could be based on the caster's Spellcraft rather than Open Lock. And that way we wouldn't need to restrict Knock to only containers.

*I propose this only works with actually casting the spell from your spellbook, and not through items.

I do absolutely agree that gear swapping is a stupid, inane, ridiculous, and immersion-breaking solution that feels more like gaming the system than actually playing it as intended. You'll never see a rogue put 1 point in OL / DT in PnP, and honestly it shouldn't be incentived here either.

Open Lock and Disable Trap both deserve counters that don't come from Rogue(ish) classes, sure, I can absolutely agree with that.
But rogues and rogue-like classes who invest into it should not be left in the dark.

Loot on top of loot, as someone mentioned previously, is a good incentive to invest in those skills, and it would be a good start.


Personally, I think skills like Open Lock and Disable Device should not be conferred as flat bonuses on items. But rather, they should add a percentage instead. So if you only have 1 point in Open Lock and you don some Rogue gloves with a 20% bonus to Open Lock? Well, 20% of 1 isn't going to be much of a boost. But if you already have 20 hard ranks invested, that's a +4 increase.

Scaling skill bonuses on items like the example I gave above would eliminate the need and inclination for gear swapping. And if it got out of hand, you could always cap the possible maximum amount it can provide.


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Re: Open Lock Skill Revisited

Post by MissEvelyn » Wed Mar 08, 2023 6:05 pm

I really am just brainstorming now, so piggybacking onto my last comment:

Attuned Skill Bonus

Attuned Skill Bonuses on items apply only if the character who dons the item has the maximum invested ranks at their character level (meaning points in cross-class skills won't count).

Or maybe they need something like ¾ of the skill ranks invested. Balance could be tested and tweaked, of course.


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Re: Open Lock Skill Revisited

Post by Kalthariam » Wed Mar 08, 2023 6:18 pm

In my opinion, nothing is more annoying than being prevented from opening a chest, because of an infinitely repeating trap doing damage you are literally immune to.

Like.. why? This is the only server I've seen where opening a chest that's trapped prevents you from actually opening the chest. Everywhere else i've seen the trap just goes off, you take that damage (Or don't if your immune / resist it for one of numerous reasons) and you just take the stuff and go.

Why in the world do traps stop you from opening chests, and why is every single trap I've ever run into an infinite trap that never runs out no matter what? There's no logical reason why a negative energy trap should stop my character from opening a chest when I'm immune to Negative energy damage through magic, or a fire trap should stop a Fire-based RDD from opening a chest.

Traps shouldn't stop you from opening containers.


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Re: Open Lock Skill Revisited

Post by Edens_Fall » Wed Mar 08, 2023 7:34 pm

A familiar rework would be nice. Perhaps one type can aid in sailing while another in increasing MS/Hide, and a third to boost Bluff/perform. 🤔 I'm not honestly sure, but they could all use a look over, because as of now, none really are useful outside the pixie.


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Re: Open Lock Skill Revisited

Post by Power Word, Haste » Wed Mar 08, 2023 7:48 pm

As it is, I feel Open Lock/Disable Trap (OL/DT) in its current state is simply annoying and tedious. Swapping a ton of gear every time I want to open a single chest is not fun. It does not enhance my experience as a player.

But it doesn’t have to be this way.

I feel there are ways to make investing into OL/DT both rewarding and fun. My idea would be to keep the normal dungeon chests and lockers bashable, and create more alternate paths/higher DC chests throughout dungeons instead. Those that invest in OL/DT can open the normal containers and thus get a search roll on them for extra loot - bashing doesn’t give this chance. Meanwhile those same people can open more loot, and dungeon passages, than those who do not invest.

This seems to me like it would be a win for everyone. The average, non-invested character can go their way through a dungeon and feel good about not having to carry a half-page of swap gear for every chest. Those that DO invest are going to have access to a lot more loot than those that break chests, and feel rewarded for it.

Tedious gates for basic loot aren’t fun.


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Re: Open Lock Skill Revisited

Post by Hazard » Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:26 pm

I like to invest fully into OL even if there's really no reason for it, atm. For roleplaying reasons.

It would really suck to invest fully into something because you want your character to be a capable 'something'er, only to realise you can't open a door or chest because you lack the str, inventory space, and shamelessness to hotkey switch between gear sets like this is a mobile RPG.

Balance things around skill investment, and maybe remove OL from items entirely except for specialised items that make sense, like a pair of daggers with +5 OL. Busting out some giant lock pick things is cool. Changing your entire wardrobe+jewelry in an instant and back infront of your entire party, getting butt-nekkid in the middle of a dangerous dungeon, is silly.

My characters are going to continue treating others who do this like the indecent exposure-pests they are.


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Re: Open Lock Skill Revisited

Post by Feargys » Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:52 pm

I'm new here. I've been playing on Arelith for only a couple of weeks, but I have played, DM'd, and storyboarded extensively on Persistent Worlds in the past. On my travels, through the low-level dungeon and adventuring areas around Cordor, I have encountered a few locked and trapped chests. My ranger might attempt to disable a trap, but has no chance of opening the locks, except to try to bash them open. I view this as an in-character inconvenience and would never imagine simply putting on gear with "open lock" and "disable trap" bonuses. For me, that would break immersion and I would view it as an "out of character" workaround to a real-life inconvenience. If I want what's in those chests, I'll recruit someone with the skills to disarm and open them.

To me, it seems that the dilemma is on a par with facing a boss who I can't defeat on my own. Isn't this the inevitable - and much wanted - dilemma of Persistent World role-playing? We're not supposed to be able to do everything on our own, even if our character is a loner. The challenge of a Persistent World is to force us to work together. If not, we just won't get the shinies!

Or am I missing the point entirely?


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Re: Open Lock Skill Revisited

Post by Amateur Hour » Thu Mar 16, 2023 1:39 pm

Feargys wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:52 pm

If I want what's in those chests, I'll recruit someone with the skills to disarm and open them.

It seems to me the concern at the moment is that access to high disarm trap/open lock skill is getting significantly more narrow. So yes, working with someone else who can disarm traps and open locks is absolutely an option that should be encouraged, but are there enough players on the server who want to play characters that can do this well (more accurately: players who are willing to make the necessary sacrifices for builds that can deal with traps and locks well)?

I think it's too soon to say if availability of rogue-type characters is going to be a problem (my gut instinct is to doubt it, because rogueish types got some really cool stuff recently that will drum up interest, at least in the immediate), but it's something I hope the team keeps an eye out for as changes settle in.

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Re: Open Lock Skill Revisited

Post by Hazard » Thu Mar 16, 2023 1:50 pm

To reiterate, what I was trying to say .. I think a full skill investment into OL (with possible consideration for gear, lockpicks, etc.) should be more than enough for all lock picking activities outside of quarterbreaking. If someone wants to quarterbreak, then I think that's an activity worth actually paying feats for.


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Re: Open Lock Skill Revisited

Post by Feargys » Thu Mar 16, 2023 1:50 pm

"...but are there enough players on the server who want to play characters that can do this well (more accurately: players who are willing to make the necessary sacrifices for builds that can deal with traps and locks well)?"

I found this helpful. Thank you. I was not aware that there was a dearth of high-level rogues with the appropriate skills.

One thing seems clear to me, though: nerfing "open lock" and "disarm trap" won't incentivize anyone to make those sacrifices.


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Re: Open Lock Skill Revisited

Post by dominantdrowess » Thu Mar 16, 2023 1:57 pm

The problem I have with Arelith, is that NO MATTER WHAT; because of the current constraints on the loot system? You get more shinies working alone so long as you offer a 10% cut to somebody with high appraise skill as a 'fencer' of your ill-gotten gains. None of the things suggested here change that at all.

And I think that needs to be addressed before anything else can have an effect; let alone balance changes having a meaningful impact. ALL Group play needs to be buffed; not specifically rogues or lockpicking. The current game mechanics simply do not facilitate bringing a rogue. Or a person who can't sail. Or a person who isn't melee. Etc.

We do it; for fun -- but these people will always be marginalized socially and economically by the actual mechanics of the system because to make up for a single adventure that takes 2 hours with 4 people ... you can literally do 10 solo runs in the same period and make 40 times as much money as you would without the other people who need the gold divided immediately, and spawn speeds don't permit you to bring a crowd to do the same exercise.

Everything regarding open locks is literally tiddlywinks in comparison to the wider problem, and it isn't even a matter of players attacking high-level dungeons solo ... it's that it's incredibly profitable to tackle -lower level- content; and you can't adjust those without harming the lower level players economically; even if you increase the pay they get for writs; because this effectively increases the cost of higher level goods; because some classes -have- to grind to level effectively; because they can't level by themselves, and these outings still cost them resources; when the gold values are altered without precision care.

I believe the economy itself has to be tackled/better balanced before meaningful changes can be made to lockpicking as a class feature; otherwise, it'll simply require more changes later. The balance of Lockpicking - of all jobs/roles - needs to be linked to the economy -- but in the absence of that? I have literally two-handed sword-smashed Epic Electrical traps on runic chests more times than I can count; there needs to be a compromise between these extremes... but I just don't think this is manageable the way the current economy is set up; unless devs are secretly planning on adding ... all new features like non-ship based treasure-map scavenger quests with chests that require lockpicking or something.

I agree, players with lock picking need more emphasis -- but I think there needs to be more HIGH-VALUE game-features added to the game that cannot be done solo - by lockpickers or otherwise for lockpicking to really gain it's place. Not just to add alternatives -- but literally to be BETTER options than solo-play for ANY of these new features to matter.

Good Character wrote:
Tue Mar 07, 2023 11:58 pm

Currently, the most impressive and common use of open lock is runic chests.

Also; I think the most 'impressive feature of Lockpicking is Quarterbreaking; not Runic Chests. I think this fundamentally misrepresents the motivations of most characters, as well as the profit margins provided by chests. Things and Information in people's houses are usually far, far more valuable -- and even without lockpicking skill; more than once I've picked up a stack of 50 adamantine ingots, or Keen Masterly Damask weapons left laying around -- certainly far more often than I've found both Intact Theurglass and Pure Zardizik for runes from runic chests in 7 years of playing, combined... and all of that pales in comparison to being able to go into a low-level dungeon and grind a million gold in 12 hours, solo.

Group play needs rewards that are bigger than solo play, and enhancing that experience with proportional rewards that can be divided among 4 people is how you create more social gameplay and teamwork; which is what most I think -want- to be here for, on a multiplayer server. Only once that framework is established can lockpicking changes really be meaningful.

The grinding economy has to be fixed or successfully subverted for lockpicking changes to ever really matter. Gatekeeping more stuff behind lockpicking before these problems are fixed just hurts normal players by reducing the average player's take from group adventuring even more, rather than stopping those who need a serious pump on the breaks - the solo players who acquire literally millions of gold and dramatically affect the economy.


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