Arelith

There are more items and Silver Palm feat gives appraise.

Ah, sorry, for clarity: I don't really care about rogues or open lock, but I do care that expanding them in some of the ways stated here will detract from the overall experience of playing other characters as stated.

Like I mentioned earlier, to reiterate, I don't care about warlocks but I can still care that they can (could?) easily farm Paush.

-XXX- wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 21, 2023 2:46 pm

Excuse me, but how are we getting to 100 Appraise exactly? That skill is not among the enchantment basin options, so the best I can come up with is:

33 = Hard ranks
14 = Int modifier
05 = Skill Focus
10 = Epic Skill Focus
06 = Gloves +6 Appraise
08 = 2x Merchant's Ring +4 Appraise
15 = Nearby lvl 30 Bard rocking the Purser's Piece
04 = Good Hope (beacuse we're also an Enchantment Specialist Wizard with SF and ESF:Leadership ofc.)

---

95

+2 from Silver Palm if you take the noble award, + int mod capped by bard levels from Purser's Piece. Purser's Piece add your int modifier a second time to Appraise. So a noble Bard with the same int mod would get 93(-2 from being just a normal good hope) + 2(silver palm) + 14(int mod from purser's piece) = 109

Wrips wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 21, 2023 4:13 pm

-XXX- wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 21, 2023 2:46 pm

Excuse me, but how are we getting to 100 Appraise exactly? That skill is not among the enchantment basin options, so the best I can come up with is:

33 = Hard ranks
14 = Int modifier
05 = Skill Focus
10 = Epic Skill Focus
06 = Gloves +6 Appraise
08 = 2x Merchant's Ring +4 Appraise
15 = Nearby lvl 30 Bard rocking the Purser's Piece
04 = Good Hope (beacuse we're also an Enchantment Specialist Wizard with SF and ESF:Leadership ofc.)

---

95

+2 from Silver Palm if you take the noble award, + int mod capped by bard levels from Purser's Piece. Purser's Piece add your int modifier a second time to Appraise. So a noble Bard with the same int mod would get 93(-2 from being just a normal good hope) + 2(silver palm) + 14(int mod from purser's piece) = 109

And there's 4 more appraise in items on top of that that neither of you mentioned :>

Purser's piece gets effectively double int modifier - without SF:Appraise, 30 int and normal Good hope - my bard is at 97 appraise.

toftdal wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 21, 2023 4:43 pm

Purser's piece gets effectively double int modifier - without SF:Appraise, 30 int and normal Good hope - my bard is at 97 appraise.

Out of curiosity, what's the general range you see merchant buy prices cap out at?

This thread is all over the place, so I am just going to stop reading it, I think. I just want to finalize a few points since I got distracted by the nonsense briefly myself.

1) A few open lock access things here and there are fine, but if you overdo it, you put too much emphasis on open lock to play the game. That's not a good place to be. And as far as I can tell, there are a few things that require high open lock already, so we are already fine in that regard.

2) You can generate insane amounts of gold by going heavy on appraise. It does have diminishing returns however, since after you finish all your sets of gear all that gold means nothing.

3) Anyone that tells you there is an absolute right way and an absolute wrong way to do anything in regard to a game more than likely has forgotten that it's just a game a long time ago. That doesn't mean they are incapable of saying something that can make you change your way of doing things, but it does mean you should often take what they say with a grain of salt. If you enjoy playing the game, you absolutely should try it from different angles every time to keep it fresh.

Good luck out there!

Please don't re-intrude bashing chests. There is nothing more annoying then to do dungeon run and find no chest in place.
Especially for people like me that can do 1-2 runs a week due to time constrains.

The amount of times I saw the chest empty due to previous party is negligible compared to the amount of times we got there and there was no chest/chests when bashing was a thing.
Honestly I had every good word in the dictionary for the previous party that saved 2/4 SP and inventory space every time our run ended with no chest present.

On-topic:
Giving high OL and DT a new life is great. As long as in doesn't encourage leaving a 30 lvl invested PC near treasure area to do a CD login to empty the chests and repeat without at least a fight with the boss in the process..

MissEvelyn wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:31 pm

toftdal wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 21, 2023 4:43 pm

Purser's piece gets effectively double int modifier - without SF:Appraise, 30 int and normal Good hope - my bard is at 97 appraise.

Out of curiosity, what's the general range you see merchant buy prices cap out at?

Just over 800 for 97

As someone who plays a bard with high appraise, here’s my understanding of the system.

MAX PRICE per item = Baseline value x [(100 + your appraise check - merchant’s opposing check)/100]

This means that at 100 appraise (totally possible to hit for a level 30 bard with SF/ESF Appraise) you get:

Baseline value x [(100 +100 + d20 - d20 - merchants’ hidden modifiers)/100]

Assuming the merchant has no hidden modifiers (race, nobility, district/city allegiance all provide modifiers) you’re looking at a range of (at 100 appraise) 181% to 219% of the baseline value.

The d20 rolls are re-rolled every time your appraise score changes. So, put on a ring or take it off, and you and the merchant will re-roll.

With my (current max) Appraise of 86, I can fairly consistently sell for 750-770gp per item.

Before the bardsong change which dropped song skill bonuses by 5, my build was a little different and I hit 104 Appraise, which gave me a range of 845-865 per item.

Note that I use re-rolls to achieve these values.

Rei_Jin wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:28 am

As someone who plays a bard with high appraise, here’s my understanding of the system.

MAX PRICE per item = Baseline value x [(100 + your appraise check - merchant’s opposing check)/100]

This means that at 100 appraise (totally possible to hit for a level 30 bard with SF/ESF Appraise) you get:

Baseline value x [(100 +100 + d20 - d20 - merchants’ hidden modifiers)/100]

Assuming the merchant has no hidden modifiers (race, nobility, district/city allegiance all provide modifiers) you’re looking at a range of (at 100 appraise) 181% to 219% of the baseline value.

The d20 rolls are re-rolled every time your appraise score changes. So, put on a ring or take it off, and you and the merchant will re-roll.

With my (current max) Appraise of 86, I can fairly consistently sell for 750-770gp per item.

Before the bardsong change which dropped song skill bonuses by 5, my build was a little different and I hit 104 Appraise, which gave me a range of 845-865 per item.

Note that I use re-rolls to achieve these values.

Is the wiki wrong about the reset counter then?

Wiki wrote:

Appraise: Does not affect buying prices from NPCs, only when selling. A higher appraise score will increase both the item value and the "gold cap per item" that the store allows. Dealing with a trader from the same settlement will factor positively in the reaction. All sources of the appraise skill are valid. In a party, the largest appraise bonus is used, provided the party ally is close enough. The reaction roll does not reset each time talking to the vendor, but instead, once every two hours. Traders are race and subrace-sensitive.

Considering I get a shift of up to 100gp by removing an appraise item, opening the store, closing the store and putting the item back on (ie, forcing a re-roll) I would say so.

We’ll, that’s certainly an “exploit” and would need to be fixed.

Making people wait two hours between appraise rolls or forcing them to lose up to 30% of the value of their items if they have a bad roll is downright disrespectful to their time.

If the mechanic is to be changed, removing the rng from it and making the value of the sold items scale just with the appraise of the character, without a dice roll involved, seems like a good compromise between investment on the skill and avoiding unnecessary tedium.

That said, the system works well right now. If someone wants to juggle their gear seven times until they get 450 instead of 420 for an item just let them do it.

I thought it was just a visual glitch, based on all the appraise bugs reported over the years. Might be worth testing and calculating whether or not the item actually sold at the displayed price (post-juggle) before throwing up another bug report. I'll check tomorrow if nobody else does by then.

Otherwise it's good to hear the numbers are still occasionally hitting where I last remember them. Was definitely second guessing myself.

Xerah wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:34 am

We’ll, that’s certainly an “exploit” and would need to be fixed.

It's been like this forever. And honestly, switching gear and re-rolling is time consuming on it's own, and can be represented in that the character is bargaining and arguing with the merchant. I dont think we should consider this as an exploit. shrug

Personally I always saw it as haggling

Xerah wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:34 am

We’ll, that’s certainly an “exploit” and would need to be fixed.

I reported this close to two years ago, was told its working as intended.

Now I want to be able to open and close a chest multiple times by changing my search gear until it gives me what I want.

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:32 am

Xerah wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:34 am

We’ll, that’s certainly an “exploit” and would need to be fixed.

I reported this close to two years ago, was told its working as intended.

I actually find it annoying that this is how it works. It feels silly to stand there spamming the merchant conversation equipping and removing appraise gear until you get a good roll. I don't see why you don't just take a 20, or alternatively your first roll is fixed no matter what for a bit if Devs want random chance in the system.

God_In_Action wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:57 am

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:32 am

Xerah wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:34 am

We’ll, that’s certainly an “exploit” and would need to be fixed.

I reported this close to two years ago, was told its working as intended.

I actually find it annoying that this is how it works. It feels silly to stand there spamming the merchant conversation equipping and removing appraise gear until you get a good roll. I don't see why you don't just take a 20, or alternatively your first roll is fixed no matter what for a bit if Devs want random chance in the system.

I agree, but now you'll find me using this exploit feature. Thanks for the clarification, Babylon

Is this thread alive?

Let me remind you the OG discussion was whether or not to nerf the pixie. Anyway, please dont nerf the pixie.

While we're at it, maybe give another familiar appraise.

Raven familiars do get a bonus to appraise in 3.5

:cyrthink:

God_In_Action wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:57 am

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:32 am

Xerah wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:34 am

We’ll, that’s certainly an “exploit” and would need to be fixed.

I reported this close to two years ago, was told its working as intended.

I actually find it annoying that this is how it works. It feels silly to stand there spamming the merchant conversation equipping and removing appraise gear until you get a good roll. I don't see why you don't just take a 20, or alternatively your first roll is fixed no matter what for a bit if Devs want random chance in the system.

So, I hunted down the conversation because my memory is not so good these days. Pot is legal in my state. It was actually just about a year ago, almost to the date!

brunothenumerouno — 03/15/2022 7:23 PM
ah, gotcha
also, while i have your attention since this is not something I would want to post publicly, there is a weird bug with appraise where moving around appraise gear allows you to refresh your roll. I also might get burnt at the stake for reporting that too.
Sincra — 03/15/2022 7:28 PM
Nah that's intentional. If your appraise moves upwards since your last roll it's meant to
It shouldn't go down but 2 people talking to the shop can cause that
brunothenumerouno — 03/15/2022 7:29 PM
alright. ive just seen people remove and replace their rings until they get a max roll
Sincra — 03/15/2022 7:29 PM
If they're increasing appraise it's fine, if it's rerolling on the same appraise, it's not
I'll take a look but it should be okay
brunothenumerouno — 03/15/2022 7:30 PM
for sure, they were their numbers so I have no idea how much it was increasing. I just asked after watching someone do it for two minutes, and they told me that.
Sincra — 03/15/2022 7:31 PM
I have an appraise wizard so I'm all too familiar with that nonsense

I'm glad I refreshed my memory too, because it seems it's not working as intended!

So strange. Normally, tedium is removed (I.e. if this is possible, just give the max roll) not encouraged.