A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World -- Register using the -forum_pwd command in-game.
https://forum.nwnarelith.com/
I'd say give imps and another familiar to two the Pixie abilities so you have a range of alignments and skins. Then put a cap on their skills so they can handle your average dungeon loot and traps but not the good stuff(tm) and call it day.
This made my day.
Just can't resist giving your sentence a thumbs up ! 
Not going to contribute anything esle since whatever that need to be said, had been said.
Edit: The bard change to remove Open lock/ Disable Trap/ Use Traps, are likely to be meant for those who just dip 3 levels bard, rather than Bard class as a whole. This is just my guess.
And i think, i still actually said something.
I think it was because of bard quarterbreakers
Before Open Lock and Disable Trap were removed from the Bard class, and before Pilfering Poems required a number of levels of Rogue equal to or greater than the specific bonus granted to those skills by it, a level 30 bard could, with gear and feats and stats, hit the DCs required to be a solo quarterbreaker.
Now they require 7 levels of Rogue to do so.
This change drops their caster level, and their song level for everything BUT Pilfering Poems.
In other words, if you as a bard wish to solo Quarterbreak, there are more costs to you for doing so.
As the player OF a bard, I support this change.
Sounds like a "make them useless without seeming useless" kind of non-solution.
Let's cut to the chase here: the goal is breaking into runic chests. Making familiars unable to do that would still force the mage to fully invest into OL/DT, at which point they'd have virtually no reason to summon their familiar ever.
Multiple and conflicting points feel true in this situation.
What this really needs is a rework of familiars. The skins are fantastic and the next step are their mechanics.
One option, could be that they give passive skill bonuses to the owner rather than being able to directly use the skill themselves. This would be relevant to open lock and would be a way around not invalidating Rogue. I.e. Pixie gives an Open Lock passive bonus to the owner no higher than equivalent to a cross class skill investment, or 1 point per 2 levels (or even less). That way if the owner decided to cross class invest Open Lock themselves and the summon the pixie, they could have a useful number of Open Lock skillpoints but WILL have had to invest something.
Then just make the other familiars equally useful but in different ways and all of a sudden you have a system that avoids Redgiant's rightful issue of X/X/3 Rogue or dungeon dressing rooms, but at the same time doesn't make Rogues redundant and unemployed.
God_In_Action wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 10:55 amThe current lock-picking pixie IS a slap in the face to Rogues.
Let's definitely dismiss this Rogue OL/DT appropriation talking point. It is FALSE - these skills are also available to assassin, harper, loremaster, specialist and vigilante as class skills. Ranger gets disable trap as a class skill.
Furthermore, there's much more to Rogue than just skills - especially now after the class has received a facelift. Had it been otherwise, the class would only ever exist in a state of a skilldump dip as has been the case in the early days of NWN.
So no, the lock-picking pixie certainly isn't a slap in the face of Rogues. It essentially represents 66 extra skill points for the Wizard and Sorcerer classes - if that alone invalidates another character build, chances are that that build was garbage in the first place (which Rogues aren't).
God_In_Action wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 10:55 amThe current lock-picking pixie IS a slap in the face to Rogues. It makes a core mechanic of a class cheaply reproduced for no investment cost.
I'm curious to know how you reach this conclusion.
I think a more precise statement would be that the DCs of locks and traps in dungeons make deep investments in lock/trap skills redundant because you do not need more than 1 rank in them + gear swapping, and the reason for that has nothing at all to do with familiars.
Slapstick wrote: ↑Wed Mar 08, 2023 6:31 amLocked and trapped chests add nothing, absolutely nothing, but tedium and inconvenience. It is not an engaging or thematically enjoyable mechanic to carry 10 extra pieces of gear.
Dungeon spoils cannot be made unavailable unless you bring a rogue, so instead they have to be attainable by any single adventurer.
The implementation of search is a perfect example of "useful, thematic, non-essential" skill. Frankly I think search offers what is needed for loot hunting. Appraise is another skill that adds value and is thematic.
Aside from convenience, Open lock has the occasional shortcut functionality. Trap disarming saves some hit points but also generates traps for rogues to use later. Isn't this enough? Do we need 4 skills devoted to increasing loot? And by the way, the two last ones don't - they are just there to make you carry extra gear.If we can't find a good implementation of the skills, it doesn't follow that a bad one is necessary.
What would we lose by removing locks and traps from chests? Nothing in my estimation. It would simply mean I don't have to fiddle with gear for a couple of minutes when encountering chests and my 6 str gnome could carry a couple more healing kits. It would be a relief, and have no impact on the effort or skill it takes to complete a dungeon, or on my incentive to form a party.
A compromise would be to keep it as is, but never lock/trap runic/boss chests. Then it's optional and gives more non-essential loot.
Another option could be, if technically possible, to make unlocking chests possible with any number of skill points, it just takes longer the bigger the difference is between Skill and DC.
Having Knock and a new consumable that removes traps able to deal with any and all chests with locks/traps could be an option too. It's a gold sink the game might have benefit from. Said consumables should be available from general stores but at a markup from what it would cost players to make it.
I hope this doesn't read too negative. Thanks to the team for all your hard work
!
you can always leave your ten pieces of gear and just hire a rogue. Oh and there are many locks and traps that are higher than a DC 40 that was mentioned further down.
AstralUniverse wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 11:47 amI think a more precise statement would be that the DCs of locks and traps in dungeons make deep investments in lock/trap skills redundant because you do not need more than 1 rank in them + gear swapping, and the reason for that has nothing at all to do with familiars.
^ that is also true.
01 = OL/DT rank (4 cross-class skill points for both skills in total)
05 = DEX (8 base +12 from gear and cat's potion)
22 = skill bonus from gear
12 = thieve's tools
20 = take 20 roll
60
That means ANY character regardless of build CAN pass DC 60 OL and DC 48 DT checks assuming they bring along a full set of +1 DEX, +2 OL, +2 DT gear (which is really easy and cheap to make). The only real "investment" we can be talking about here are those 4 skill points and character inventory space.
-XXX- wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 12:01 pmAstralUniverse wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 11:47 amI think a more precise statement would be that the DCs of locks and traps in dungeons make deep investments in lock/trap skills redundant because you do not need more than 1 rank in them + gear swapping, and the reason for that has nothing at all to do with familiars.
^ that is also true.
01 = OL/DT rank (4 cross-class skill points for both skills in total)
05 = DEX (8 base +12 from gear and cat's potion)
22 = skill bonus from gear
12 = thieve's tools
20 = take 20 roll
60
That means ANY character regardless of build CAN pass DC 60 OL and DC 48 DT checks assuming they bring along a full set of +1 DEX, +2 OL, +2 DT gear (which is really easy and cheap to make). The only real "investment" we can be talking about here are those 4 skill points and character inventory space.
so nerf the pixie and make the craftable gear rogue use only
its been said 1000s of times that you should not need or want to solo epic places
You could also accomplish the very same thing by raising the DCs on locks and traps so characters without 33 ranks invested cant get them and pixies wont get them either, but then you're making all loot Rogue exclusive and you force all characters to bring a rogue with them to dungeons. Again, the pixie is really not the issue.
The real discussion here is whether or not locked loot should be exclusive to characters with deep investment in locks/traps and it's been said 1000s of times that there's no intention to make it so because it just goes to reward the cliques and orchestrated large factions and punish the average casual player who wont be able to open a loot box without playing a narrow selection of classes.
Rogues have nothing to do with ensuring high level areas are soloable. The only thing locking rogues into a must have will create is situations like this:
"I'm playing an elf, and after three days of sitting about and talking about the flowers I get my fellow elves to go to a dungeon with me. But oops, all the rogues we know are logged out. Guess it's back to flowers for us!"
If the goal is to make it so runic dungeons can't be solo'd, and I can't say for certain that's the case, then they have to be challenging for a group. If two people can steamroll any boss on the server, and that's true of most of them, then even if it's hard a player is going to try and solo it and will eventually find the way.
Proposing, and will re-propose, this:
(Also add stackable potions of extra thieving instead of the books k thx)
Ebonstar wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 6:35 pm-XXX- wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 12:01 pmAstralUniverse wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 11:47 amI think a more precise statement would be that the DCs of locks and traps in dungeons make deep investments in lock/trap skills redundant because you do not need more than 1 rank in them + gear swapping, and the reason for that has nothing at all to do with familiars.
^ that is also true.
01 = OL/DT rank (4 cross-class skill points for both skills in total)
05 = DEX (8 base +12 from gear and cat's potion)
22 = skill bonus from gear
12 = thieve's tools
20 = take 20 roll
60
That means ANY character regardless of build CAN pass DC 60 OL and DC 48 DT checks assuming they bring along a full set of +1 DEX, +2 OL, +2 DT gear (which is really easy and cheap to make). The only real "investment" we can be talking about here are those 4 skill points and character inventory space.
so nerf the pixie and make the craftable gear rogue use only
its been said 1000s of times that you should not need or want to solo epic places
dominantdrowess said enough and precisely on point why you just have no choice but to need and solo epic places.
It is not that i have not brought players to epic dungeons together but most of those times, I'm was already held with the intention to share/sightsee with them.
Had it been purely to increase your wealth, Solo has always been the method ( except for sailing ) and i agree.
Had Pixie been removed of it's OP / DT capability, you'll find every single character having the need to stuff another full set of clothes and jeweleries in their already congestive inventory space.
Remember how much people always talk about despising to swap clothings for sailing? Well done. Here's another upcoming chore soon to be available.
Tbh, OP / DT does not stop a person who's intention is to solo. The only way you can stop them is, if you completely remove/lock their skill/capability to perform OP / DT which, is impossible. The most that can be done is simply to make their life more difficult and that's what this nerf about Pixie is about. As long as what dominantdrowess' spot on post isn't able to get a proper rework and there's not enough merit for a party play for dungeon, this problem will continue to exist.
The humor about making every epic Dungeons, a dressing room is actually a spot on.
The proposed nerf to pixie was solely due to the implication that solo QBers shouldn't be so easy a thing so it was extrapolated to solo-anything related to locks and traps.
The suggestion was practically immediately after the announcement and approved faster than a majority of the suggestions made on the forum.
The streams were crossed for a change to protecting quarters more and into how current loot and dungeon design is handled and that is funny to me.
If everyone can do it what's the point then. Why aren't we freeing everyone's inventory from this second set of gear and the silliness that is switching gear in the middle of a dungeon?
Why not make chest bashable (and dropping the loot) like Runic chests at this point? If I can take the repeating trap damage, or disable the trap and bash it I feel like I paid the price for the loot. What's the boon of having Open Lock and Disable Trap at that point? QoL. You don't take damage, you can also retrieve epic traps which you can sell or use.
It bothers me because I don't take a second set of gear with me, and I am fairly sure I have missed on possibly hundreds of thousands of loot because of this. Pixies bother people because they are a good QoL that's not accessible for everyone.
Shadowy Reality wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 11:39 amIf everyone can do it what's the point then. Why aren't we freeing everyone's inventory from this second set of gear and the silliness that is switching gear in the middle of a dungeon?
Why not make chest bashable (and dropping the loot) like Runic chests at this point? If I can take the repeating trap damage, or disable the trap and bash it I feel like I paid the price for the loot. What's the boon of having Open Lock and Disable Trap at that point? QoL. You don't take damage, you can also retrieve epic traps which you can sell or use.
It bothers me because I don't take a second set of gear with me, and I am fairly sure I have missed on possibly hundreds of thousands of loot because of this. Pixies bother people because they are a good QoL that's not accessible for everyone.
I also liked it when they were bashable. In my eyes, some chance could be added that the content is destroyed. Additionally I'd randomize the DC, so it's not open all or none with the Pixie familiar.
One could play around with the destroy content and DC probabilities such that half invested (plus equipment) or the Pixie are better off than no investment and rogues be the kings.
Everybody liked when it was bashable. It took literally a year and half before someone eventually reported the bug (must be a rogue player).
There have been some really good uses for locks/traps put in some of the places that give shortcuts and extra loot behind those locked doors. If more dungeons were built around that and locks were removed (or the bash thing was put back) then everyone wins.
Normal dudes still get loot they can see.
Rogues get to invest in points to get extra loot no one else can see (and this can be some good stuff)
And, most importantly, no one has to reach into the tickle trunk to do so many wardrobe changes in the middle of the dungeon thus saving inventory space.
Xerah wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:00 pmThere have been some really good uses for locks/traps put in some of the places that give shortcuts and extra loot behind those locked doors. If more dungeons were built around that and locks were removed (or the bash thing was put back) then everyone wins.
Normal dudes still get loot they can see.
Rogues get to invest in points to get extra loot no one else can see (and this can be some good stuff)
And, most importantly, no one has to reach into the tickle trunk to do so many wardrobe changes in the middle of the dungeon thus saving inventory space.
This please.
There are many dungeon shortcuts (I say shortcuts but I mean all these high dc doors with a chest somewhere behind them, even if it's not quite a shortcut). The access to these shortcuts and extra space should be rogue haven. High dc locks, epic and deadly traps, and several chests, not just one. And their DCs should be higher than what familiars or 1 rank + gear swapping can reach, so it's burglar-exclusive. That would be nice. There's nothing wrong with normal loot chest if there's enough of them. Each of them has a chance to spawn things like mithril dust, silver bells, gems of mord, etc etc.
AstralUniverse wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:17 pmXerah wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:00 pmThere have been some really good uses for locks/traps put in some of the places that give shortcuts and extra loot behind those locked doors. If more dungeons were built around that and locks were removed (or the bash thing was put back) then everyone wins.
Normal dudes still get loot they can see.
Rogues get to invest in points to get extra loot no one else can see (and this can be some good stuff)
And, most importantly, no one has to reach into the tickle trunk to do so many wardrobe changes in the middle of the dungeon thus saving inventory space.
This please.
There are many dungeon shortcuts (I say shortcuts but I mean all these high dc doors with a chest somewhere behind them, even if it's not quite a shortcut). The access to these shortcuts and extra space should be rogue haven. High dc locks, epic and deadly traps, and several chests, not just one. And their DCs should be higher than what familiars or 1 rank + gear swapping can reach, so it's burglar-exclusive. That would be nice. There's nothing wrong with normal loot chest if there's enough of them. Each of them has a chance to spawn things like mithril dust, silver bells, gems of mord, etc etc.
+1
Yes, yes, yes please. Reward characters who actually invest a ton into Rogue like skills, while not holding back normal rewards for everyone else. I think that's a fair middle ground.
I feel like this would just lead to no-risk high-reward situations very quickly once people figure out how to jog past all the enemies and then break into their super special class repository.
Then these characters flood the market with high tier loot and everyone suffers as prices plummet and normal PCs fall into a lose-lose - unable to reliably score good loot or sell it at the value it took to get it when they do.
How is that any different from now? Just because a rogue can get access to a few extra chests a dungeon isn’t going to flood the market.
Skibbles wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:10 amI feel like this would just lead to no-risk high-reward situations very quickly once people figure out how to jog past all the enemies and then break into their super special class repository.
Then these characters flood the market with high tier loot and everyone suffers as prices plummet and normal PCs fall into a lose-lose - unable to reliably score good loot or sell it at the value it took to get it when they do.
I'm pretty sure that it's against the rule to jog past all enemies.
Very frowned upon actually and greatly discouraged, if anyone esle have been doing so.
!