Underdark & Andunor

[Rei_Jin]

In terms of the Boreal Keep, imagine a different scenario.

Imagine if the Arcane Tower at Mayfields was as it is now, except that there was no way to climb into it, or to access the internal portals unless you were an access holder or you were in party with an access holder.

You've got a property with many rooms, full of mages, who are unable to be removed or even accessed by outsiders without their approval, who can do functionally whatever they like.

Sure, you can attack them outside of the tower.

But how are you going to spy on them when they ward the tower?

How are you going to break in to gather information on their plans, or interrupt their meetings and events?

Imagine if the Red Wizards took over such a place and decided that slavery, undead, and general misery were the order of the day, and started flexing outwardly to disrupt politics and oppose other groups, working from their unassailable tower.

In short time, folks would be calling for staff to adjust the mechanics, because it's not right that a group can be in a position to take hostile actions without needing to deal with repercussions.

The Boreal Keep is like that for Andunor, regardless of the current tenants actions and intentions.

[perseid]

In terms of the Boreal Keep, imagine a different scenario.

Imagine if the Arcane Tower at Mayfields was as it is now, except that there was no way to climb into it, or to access the internal portals unless you were an access holder or you were in party with an access holder.

You've got a property with many rooms, full of mages, who are unable to be removed or even accessed by outsiders without their approval, who can do functionally whatever they like.

Sure, you can attack them outside of the tower.

But how are you going to spy on them when they ward the tower?

How are you going to break in to gather information on their plans, or interrupt their meetings and events?

Imagine if the Red Wizards took over such a place and decided that slavery, undead, and general misery were the order of the day, and started flexing outwardly to disrupt politics and oppose other groups, working from their unassailable tower.

In short time, folks would be calling for staff to adjust the mechanics, because it's not right that a group can be in a position to take hostile actions without needing to deal with repercussions.

The Boreal Keep is like that for Andunor, regardless of the current tenants actions and intentions.

This is a solid analogy for helping illustrate why the Boreal Keep is such a behemoth of an asset in the UD but I wouldn't even limit it to just this as far as trying to highlight what makes it such an effective tool for projecting influence in Andunor. Even if you set aside the already powerful advantages of the BK like its immunity to quarterbreaking, immunity to politics (in the District sense, you can't be voted out of the Boreal Keep), immunity to overall pressure, proximity to the primary social space of significance for UD characters (the BK is closer to the Hub than any District) there's still the reality that the Boreal Keep lacks even the typical weaknesses that a Guildhouse might normally feature.

Very often Guildhouses are balanced/compromised by things like attached shops which grant entry to shop owners thus creating an incentive for Guildhouse owners to take an active interest in the management of those shops for security reasons. But this is not so for the Boreal Keep, owning a shop in the Boreal Keep's lobby will give you access to a small side room with a single storage unit of modest size but in no way compromises the actual security of the BK itself. So even within the typical mechanics of a generic Guildhouse the Boreal Keep is noteworthy for lacking even an incentive to fret over things like exterior attachments that could be leveraged as points of compromise. This is, again, all within an environment where not only are overt forms of aggression like pvp common, but things like District insecurity through Chancellor assassination and citizenship shuffling are common too as well as takeovers of desirable iconic property through the landlease system (as in the case of the Dreadnought). Yet none of these things are a concern if you own the Boreal Keep and in fact you will have more advantages than the norm as far as even standard mechanics if you own the Boreal Keep.

[Edens_Fall]

Have you done a suggestion on the forum to have the BK immunity changed?

I have which is why I haven't done a Feedback thread before on the topic, but it seemed related to the OP's post due to the way their suggestion ties in with Andunorian politics and the general social dynamic of the UD on the whole.

No worries, was just curious as now would be the time to suggest such a change with that forum open again.

[Shadowy Reality]

I might be missing something. I understand the Boreal Keep doesn't have a traditional door as most quarters or guildhouses do, and instead has a portal. This makes it immune to the typical lock pick and bash door, you also can't sneak inside with someone, but that's it.

It's not that different from someone using any other quarter or guildhouse with maxed security that takes appropriate precautions, chances are, you're not getting in to PvP them either. They can get out via a lens and go in only after casting true seeing.

Which begs the question of why the Boreal Keep is viewed as such a problem in comparison.

I also don't understand the claim that faction recruitment can't be disrupted. How come? Can still get their members in Andunor, get them when they are going in. Same as any other faction operating from regular quarters.

[msterswrdsmn]

Maybe its due to the lack of upkeep? I do sort of agree with the above; most people max out the security measures on their guild doors and make it impossible for everyone except a dedicated quarterbreaker to get in. I've seen literally one. One singular player like this in all my time on Arelith. Gold isn't too hard to get, and if you can afford a guildhouse, you probably aren't going to be hurting when it comes to the maxed security doors upkeep.

That said, to be fair, things that were exclusive to one group only have gotten nuked in the past. Ie: Udos's drow-only gate, Benwicks smite-evil arch, etc.

[perseid]

I might be missing something. I understand the Boreal Keep doesn't have a traditional door as most quarters or guildhouses do, and instead has a portal. This makes it immune to the typical lock pick and bash door, you also can't sneak inside with someone, but that's it.

It's not that different from someone using any other quarter or guildhouse with maxed security that takes appropriate precautions, chances are, you're not getting in to PvP them either. They can get out via a lens and go in only after casting true seeing.

Which begs the question of why the Boreal Keep is viewed as such a problem in comparison.

I also don't understand the claim that faction recruitment can't be disrupted. How come? Can still get their members in Andunor, get them when they are going in. Same as any other faction operating from regular quarters.

I think this comes down to personal experience then so maybe we've just had very different experiences on the server. My personal experience has been that any competent pvp faction is going to have both a quarterbreaker and someone who's able to -ward teleport. These things are essentially mandatory for any kind of high level faction conflict unless you want to be at a massive disadvantage and I've not found them to be particularly scarce as typically at least three settlements will have teams capable of fielding these types of builds and in Andunor, where trying to force people out of town through sheer force is a common occurrence and very much allowed, there's often multiple factions within the city itself that have these kinds of resources.

That said, I think you're misunderstanding the role of pvp in faction vs. faction combat as well (at least as far as the way I've been discussing it. I don't want to sound like I'm trying to completely dismiss your experience with these things either). Wiping a faction over and over isn't materially taxing to them. What burns out the enemy faction is the disruption this imposes on them. Being able to be quarterbroken is a huge deal because it means that even at home neither your fixtures, resources, or events are safe. It also means that you can be displaced on a regular enough basis that you won't be able to recruit and operate effectively as a group compared to your adversary. Recruitment will never be a problem for the Boreal Keep because you're within one transition of the only space that matters in Andunor for rapid recruitment and you will never be unable to host interesting rp for the people you recruit into your faction.

Building on this idea of disruption and entertaining recruits is the other aspect of faction survival I mentioned earlier which is events. Boring factions die. Getting wiped whenever you try to host an event, or putting in a week of effort to coordinate a 50/50 chance your event gets wiped, is going to get boring for most people. This isn't a weakness the Boreal Keep has to contend with whatsoever. There's no such thing as disrupting a Boreal Keep event unless the owners specifically decide to allow the risk to take place. Further, the Boreal keep is an excellent hosting space on top of its mechanical advantages so leveraging it as the primary space for your faction is rarely if ever going to be an obstacle to growth. Disruption doesn't just tie into events being actively hosted either but also things like the security of roleplay fixtures. Numerous generations of BK owners have used the imperviousness to quarterbreaking as a political tool by offering to shelter rp fixtures within the Keep where they're impossible to steal and this strategy has worked for many of these groups precisely because keeping fixtures out of enemy hands is often that important to people who enjoy being able to take that kind of roleplay seriously with it becoming a liability.

This all culminates into an outcome that is essentially boats on crack as far as the protection being offered. Which is part of why I suppose I don't understand why highlighting things like the break-in immunity as an extraordinary advantage is confusing. Boats had to have barnacles added specifically because people were realizing taking your boat out of port is actually the worst use of a boat. This exact dynamic is a major part of why we've not seen more land-based quarters that are QB immune, and I mean real QB immunity, because there seems to be a conflation here between having maxed out security and QB immunity but any competent QB build will have no trouble breaking into your quarter if they have a sponsor (like a faction). And when you combine something that powerful with optimal positioning, an internal structure that outstrips most other guildhouses on the server for entertaining, and decouple its ownership entirely from politics in a city where almost all of the property is tied to a district or a landlease (this is huge but so is this post so I've basically skipped over this factor entirely), what you get is the perfect asset for gradually asserting yourself in Andunor without ever being able to be genuinely rebuffed. You virtually never see Boreal Keep owners being forced out of the city and it's not because they play their hand carefully (some do but that's not the point) it's because engaging with Boreal Keep factions is simply that much of a disadvantage that it's best avoided at all costs unless they're directly pressuring you to a degree that can't be negotiated. The times the Boreal Keep isn't a noticeable influence in Andunor are the times where the Keep's controlling faction either hasn't had the time or the interest to cultivate influence.

[Shadowy Reality]

I was honestly not aware that dedicated QB builds were that prevalent, or that they could actually beat a maxed quarter lock.

I would argue we are looking at this the other way around then. I would actually argue perhaps maxed out locks shouldn't be possible to open at all. It is still possible to do things, you can sneak in while the doors are open after someone went in if you want to spy or beat the owners up. But at this point it is a matter of opinion and perspective.

It shouldn't be too hard to make the BK portal available to all and then just place a locked door just directly in front. Similar to the Abyssal guildhouse transition from the UD side.

[Rei_Jin]

Dedicated QBing builds are easy to do now, and characters with said builds aren't too hard to find nowadays.

And yeah, a maxed lock and trap door requires a dedicated QBer, but it's completely doable.

On top of that, there's the tried and true method of sneaking in with someone when they open the door, which happens more often than QBing does, because all it requires is patience and stealth.

ON TOP OF THAT, the Boreal Keep isn't in a district, so the only way for the current owner of the guildhouse (and therefore the faction anchor) to be evicted, is for a DM to do so. No player authority can ever remove them.

By comparison, the Shadowclaw Warren is in the Devil's Table district, and despite their political connections, vast numbers, and resources, their property can be broken into despite having maxed locks and traps, someone could sneak in when a member with access opens the door, and they could be evicted by a district authority.

It creates an uneven playing field that, in the wrong hands, could be completely toxic to Andunor and its citizens, and as such, really should be addressed.

[Shadowy Reality]

ON TOP OF THAT, the Boreal Keep isn't in a district, so the only way for the current owner of the guildhouse (and therefore the faction anchor) to be evicted, is for a DM to do so. No player authority can ever remove them.

Is this a problem though? There's plenty of quarters and some other guildhouses out there that aren't tied to a settlement.

[Rei_Jin]

On top of the fact that a QBer can't get in, and you can't sneak in? Yeah, it really is.

The only other properties that cannot be broken into currently are ships, and even THEN there are ways to get on board if you're determined enough, AND it is likely that ships WILL be able to be broken into in future.

[AstralUniverse]

High value quarters and shops in good locations (like in the middle of a freaking city) should all be under settlement/district authority as a general rule for Arelith as a whole, imo. Remote guilds/shops/quarters far away from traffic, away from portals and main roads, can and should be free from authority. My two cents.

[LichBait]

That said, I think you're misunderstanding the role of pvp in faction vs. faction combat as well (at least as far as the way I've been discussing it. I don't want to sound like I'm trying to completely dismiss your experience with these things either). Wiping a faction over and over isn't materially taxing to them. What burns out the enemy faction is the disruption this imposes on them. Being able to be quarterbroken is a huge deal because it means that even at home neither your fixtures, resources, or events are safe. It also means that you can be displaced on a regular enough basis that you won't be able to recruit and operate effectively as a group compared to your adversary. Recruitment will never be a problem for the Boreal Keep because you're within one transition of the only space that matters in Andunor for rapid recruitment and you will never be unable to host interesting rp for the people you recruit into your faction.

I don't disagree that having a place immune to infiltration isn't a good precedent to set, even though I personally loathe most quarterbreaking. I think the majority of experiences that are borderline griefy/non-interactable outweigh the experiences that were a narrative positive. That being said, my opinion isn't too relevant on the fairness of a place that's immune to it.

I will also add that the acceptance of the above mindset is kind of baffling to me, and I hope is not indicative of a continued culture shift on what constitutes meaningful conflict interaction. If the Boreal Keep changes to conform to the rest of the server, I hope this isn't the reasoning for it.

[Xerah]

I will also add that the acceptance of the above mindset is kind of baffling to me, and I hope is not indicative of a continued culture shift on what constitutes meaningful conflict interaction. If the Boreal Keep changes to conform to the rest of the server, I hope this isn't the reasoning for it.

The way it's said makes it sound like it's pretty expected from a lot of groups. I cannot fathom having this mindset at all while I play this game. Anyone who does, I strongly suggest you take a look at yourself and consider how that kind of toxic attitude is harming the game.

[Ork]

Wow. This topic turned into dogpiling the boreal keep? Jealousy runs deep I guess. Doesn't hurt that the Arcanum happens to have some of the best roleplay around. Perseid needs to take off his tinfoil hat.

[perseid]

Wow. This topic turned into dogpiling the boreal keep? Jealousy runs deep I guess. Doesn't hurt that the Arcanum happens to have some of the best roleplay around. Perseid needs to take off his tinfoil hat.

I don't understand the need for taking shots at eachother unless this is just your typical posting style? The issue was never about the Arcanum itself as this is something that I've observed over multiple irl years. Hence why I specifically kept the issue to discussing the Boreal Keep as the Boreal Keep and not a specific faction. If you go through my post history you'll even notice that in the actual Suggestion thread I made some time ago I acknowledge the current owners as generally good stewards of the Boreal Keep. But whether or not the Arcanum are good stewards, and the roleplay they produce, doesn't actually tie in with the overall mechanical balance of the Boreal Keep so I'm also not sure why you've brought it up at all besides to try and raise people's feelings over the issue.

[xanrael]

For a potentially more moderate example, picture some loanshark RP:

Tom borrows money from Bob and his gang. He refuses to pay it back when it comes due.

Scenario A:
Bob and gang approach Tom in the Hub and demand the gold back.

Scenario B:
Tom enters his quarter to find Bob and gang lounging inside.

To me Scenario B is more impactful and my guess is more likely to lead to a resolution. Possibly with less tours of the fugue for all involved.

[Skibbles]

I've seen dozens of factions rise and fall over the years, but never at the hands of some mathematically perfect current-meta QB drone. Andunor's factions basically die on whether or not they can enter the hub and roleplay. It's not this complicated.

[perseid]

I feel like people are over focusing on my examples of why the Boreal Keep is as powerful as it is. Or at least, why I think it's imbalanced as it is and that's probably partially on me for choosing fairly provocative wording. Of course I'm fine arguing those points still since I think they're true but, while this ties in closely with why I think the Boreal Keep is worth examining, it's not the direct reason I thought my feedback was relevant to the OP and so I'd like to clarify the position a bit.

The original post that started this thread is ultimately discussing expanding options for groups that politically can't exist in Andunor anymore with the acknowledgement that over time many houses and factions have seen themselves become "not welcome" in Andunor to the point that the hostilities they face might even see them pvped out of wilderness zones. The suggestion of a new UD settlement then ultimately is to accommodate break-away groups who would like to continue to function instead of just having to "fade away"/roll/whatever.

A lot of people already acknowledged new UD settlements as a topic that has been discussed before and to this end I actually think Andunor is still a fine option for these groups in theory. I say in theory because while the tri-district structure ultimately emulates three settlements in very close proximity the reality is that this arrangement exists in the mechanical shadow of a Guildhouse which is more centrally located than any of the districts, tied to none of them, separate from the Landlease system which compromises other desirable "neutral" options like the Dreadnought, and which ultimately has the capacity if wielded effectively to be just as influential (if not more influential) as a District in its own right. My points about the Boreal Keep are meant to illustrate why the sheer mechanical advantages of the Keep undermine the overarching design of the city as a place of deep politics. Because having such a behemoth of a Guildhouse in such an optimal placement with so few, if any, points of compromise naturally creates a central point of power that can't be unseated in a city that's supposedly designed around cutthroat diplomacy. To this end I think reining in at least the most obvious advantage of the Boreal Keep would, in the longerm because the same group won't always own the BK, be healthier for the city and accommodate a lot of what the OP is trying to achieve with their own suggestion.

[Ork]

[perseid]

I mean, you can just say if you think a thread should be locked but the meme did make me smile. I don't really understand the point you're trying to make any more though considering that multiple other posters have explained why the OP's query was unlikely to ever be considered in the way they had imagined it including a past post from Irongron commenting why such was probably not ever going to happen. So if expansions like the OP asked about are unlikely the only other real direction would be evaluating what in Andunor could be amended to address the points they brought up. Feel free to give some actual feedback on that front. Alternatively, I'd like something along the lines of a Yugioh template where I'm activating the Boreal Keep as a trap card against the thread.

[DM Poppy]

Okay, we've hit terminal velocity on this thread.

Andunor exists, as the Underdarks last hope. It was created by Irongron to support a much smaller playerbase and serves it's function ideally.

Andunor has several districts, it has guilds. The Underdark has a multitude of faction areas. They are all vastly underutilised.

The Underdark population could not support another Settlement and this has been shown time and time again with the lack of IG maintainance on the features that currently exist already.