Underdark & Andunor

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A Mystery Clock
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Underdark & Andunor

Post by A Mystery Clock » Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:50 pm

This might be a very odd take, but, has it ever been considered to have more than one single settlement in the underdark?

The reason why I am asking is that surface characters that, say, fall out with one of the main cities generally have other cities to join. Andunor is the only available turf for pretty much all underdark races, and has led to a very odd situation, where UD characters have to play extremely nice to each other in order to not be eradicated from the only settlement they have.

On one hand, two options (perhaps a "moderate" melting pot in Andunor and a more classic drow settlement?) might split the playerbase and thin out the UD playerbase. On the other, it might actually invite more people to play in the underdark, as it would create all sorts of dynamics and grounds for UD vs UD conflict. Right now, houses and factions that are not welcome in Andunor don't even have an option to live in the wilderness, and as a result often just fade away. What are your thoughts on it?


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Re: Underdark & Andunor

Post by Azensor » Sat Mar 11, 2023 5:09 pm

Its been tried before, and it just ended up with racial areas where the certain races would gather..and leave the ud area feeling dead. That and i'll be perfectly honest, I have 0 desire to see or interact with menzo drow houses again. Did it once, dont care to do it again. Please and thank you


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Re: Underdark & Andunor

Post by Skibbles » Sat Mar 11, 2023 5:16 pm

A Mystery Clock wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:50 pm

This might be a very odd take, but, has it ever been considered to have more than one single settlement in the underdark?

Oh yeah. Pretty much annually or at least bi-annually, or at least feedback threads about it anyway.

It does not appear to be on the horizon each time it comes up.

Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

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Re: Underdark & Andunor

Post by Kuma » Sat Mar 11, 2023 5:29 pm

A Mystery Clock wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:50 pm

This might be a very odd take, but, has it ever been considered to have more than one single settlement in the underdark?

No, never.

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Re: Underdark & Andunor

Post by Skibbles » Sat Mar 11, 2023 6:08 pm

Here's a few of the really big threads it's been a hot topic in:

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=28717&p=228638&hil ... or#p228638

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=28663

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=31818&hilit=super+inconsistent

These are the really big ones I remember, but it also comes up inside threads with titles I can't remember. This should be ample reading as it is anyway.

Edit: Did some digging and found a post by Irongron more or less directly speaking about this. Bear in mind this is from 2020 so their mind could very have changed, but I kind of doubt it. They'll pop in here if they feel otherwise I'm sure.

Irongron wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 2:57 am

The underdark, separated into half a dozen racial settlements and guildhouses was in absolute terminal decline, and there is absolutely no way I will go down that route again.

Most locations were deserted, almost all of the time, and a major part of playing there was merely standing around in the hope that someone would show up.

When I remade it I had two pretty simple 'rules' - no racial settlements/enclaves and very few guildhouses, if any.

Players often want to have their own private spaces to pursue their RP guild/settlement ambitions, but I know from years of experience this very soon breaks down, first into cliquism, and then into dead spaces.

Andunor is a huge success, precisely because of the hub, and I find it astonishing anyone can seriously suggest removing it, or splitting the players into extra settlements.

I understand that some players might be getting tired of the same setting, but to do so would be absolutely awful. Andunor is, by far, Arelith's busiest settlement, more than anywhere else on the server it feels genuinely alive, at any hour.

There is a reason it so totally dominated the 'favourite settlement' poll - it is simply a far better design and concept than any other city/town on Arelith, and with the possible exception of Skaljard the only one where interactions are guaranteed at any time of day.

A second town would very soon get locked in permanent PvP, and divide dev time between the two locations. Both would soon become considerably less vibrant, and much less fun to play.

I know it is subjective, but I find this an absolutely terrible suggestion, possibly the worst I've read on the forums for quite some time. There is no way, at all, I will add new monster settlements to the Underdark

Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

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Re: Underdark & Andunor

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Mar 11, 2023 7:47 pm

Kuma wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2023 5:29 pm
A Mystery Clock wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:50 pm

This might be a very odd take, but, has it ever been considered to have more than one single settlement in the underdark?

No, never.

LOL you made my spill my drink!
...
Anyway, I love Andunour. It feels like Skal, but with epic content, portals and speedies. It's really great. I think adding more settlements would surely ruin that sort of charm Andunour has right now, for better or worse. I really like it the way it is.

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Re: Underdark & Andunor

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Sun Mar 12, 2023 4:24 am

I personally wish the surface was smushed into Guldorand instead of all spread out the way it is. Or maybe Cordor and Guldorand since the surface is more popular.

I actually spent a few hours writing up this cool revamp of settlements that broke them down into factions to make the "political aspect" of Arelith less about winning elections (though that would still be part of it in some instances) and more about the ongoing political game. My goal was to essentially stop the typical rotation of gather a big group, get elected, spend hours upon hours on paperwork and meetings, get burnt out, rinse and repeat with the next group. But I ended up deleting all of it, realizing that with how spread out the surface is there would never be enough players to really make it work. And we are talking about a part of the servers that often hits 150 players on the weekends lol.

In other words, as an exclusively surface player I am envious of Anundor's one city where you are forced to interact instead of being able to dip into your private corner when you want to get all Cartman with it.

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Re: Underdark & Andunor

Post by A Mystery Clock » Sun Mar 12, 2023 1:44 pm

Kuma wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2023 5:29 pm
A Mystery Clock wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:50 pm

This might be a very odd take, but, has it ever been considered to have more than one single settlement in the underdark?

No, never.

God damn it, alright. ALRIGHT. Excuse me while I go apply burn salve everywhere :mrgreen:


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Re: Underdark & Andunor

Post by msterswrdsmn » Sun Mar 12, 2023 2:29 pm

IF something like this were added, I would recommend somewhere where both surfacers -and- underdarkers can interact similar to the Shadovar tradepost. I don't think yet another surface/underdark exclusive settlement is needed.

I don't want to see racially based settlements like Myon or Burrowhome. I do -not- miss Udos. Racially segregated areas also run the risk of being underused, like the halfbreed camp.

I don't want to see another large settlement; the singularity of Andunor forces people together. I'm not even sure if the UD playerbase is large enough to support a whole seperate settlement.

A part of me misses Jareds trading post, but that might be just me.


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Re: Underdark & Andunor

Post by Amateur Hour » Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:22 pm

I have admittedly limited Underdark character experience, but I feel the fact Treadstone Locks and the Upperdark Trade Post aren't a bigger deal is a pretty good indicator that another settlement in the Underdark isn't going to help very much.

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Re: Underdark & Andunor

Post by Yvesza » Sun Mar 12, 2023 7:17 pm

My only gripe with Andunor is that the connected districts are rarely if ever used for much, despite being mini-settlements they feel more like housing estates where people battle to become the landlord.


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Re: Underdark & Andunor

Post by HeyLadyOfDecay » Sun Mar 12, 2023 7:23 pm

The UD has several settlements, just cleverly disguised as a whole;

The hub with its outskirts devils table and sharps. Politican 2 split city.

Greyport, mistaken as district, but with its acces "limited" and often an after thought, it only needs a portal and its a full on settlement.

Non political, Saltspar and upper tradepost.

But the best, treadstone. Lawless, tons of quarters, bank, shops.. it has everything a settlement needs minus a leader.

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Re: Underdark & Andunor

Post by Dreams » Mon Mar 13, 2023 7:45 am

I think small expansions of the Upperdark Trading Post (including the portal not being racially locked) would promote what OP was intending.


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Re: Underdark & Andunor

Post by perseid » Mon Mar 13, 2023 12:50 pm

If you want to make the UD more interesting you should start at nerfing the Boreal Keep. At a time when ships being QB immune was acknowledged as such a problem that barnacles had to be added to force captain's into brief periods of vulnerability, the BK continues to be the sole property on the server that is completely unassailable. The reason interest in districts waxes and wanes is directly tied to the fact that in reality whoever owns the BK is the de-facto owner of Andunor without any possibility of assassination mechanic or counter-play.


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Re: Underdark & Andunor

Post by -XXX- » Mon Mar 13, 2023 1:34 pm

I don't understand. How does owning a piece of coveted IG realestate make somebody the undisputed owner of Andunor?


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Re: Underdark & Andunor

Post by Inordinate » Mon Mar 13, 2023 1:54 pm

It doesn't which is what makes the claim even funnier. Andunor's districts, power players, factions, etc. wax and wane so frequently (and often violently) that I'd struggle to even name a moment in the several years I've played where that was even plausible enough to crack a joke about.

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Re: Underdark & Andunor

Post by perseid » Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:05 pm

Inordinate wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 1:54 pm

It doesn't which is what makes the claim even funnier. Andunor's districts, power players, factions, etc. wax and wane so frequently (and often violently) that I'd struggle to even name a moment in the several years I've played where that was even plausible enough to crack a joke about.

I'm not sure whether you're being ironic or not when this illustrates the exact point. The other things wax and wane because they all have counterplay and are vulnerable to external pressure. Owning the BK is infinitely more empowering in the UD environment than being the head of a District.


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Re: Underdark & Andunor

Post by Inordinate » Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:46 pm

The implication of it being "de-facto owner of Andunor" is that it would be shown as being projected outwardly, somehow managing to stand on top of all interactions with the city as a whole and dominating the in character politics in every possible way. Being the 'leader of Andunor' would place the owner of the Keep squarely in front of the Surfacer vs. Underdark dynamic that has cycled in and out of the player and character collective consciousness since its inception.

Reality dictates that isn't and hasn't been the case.

The main point of this thread was soundly dismissed and has been rebuked by the admins several times over in the last couple of years. It should probably be locked instead of being used as a soapbox for an unrelated topic.

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Re: Underdark & Andunor

Post by perseid » Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:54 pm

Inordinate wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:46 pm

Being the 'leader of Andunor' would place the owner of the Keep squarely in front of the Surfacer vs. Underdark dynamic that has cycled in and out of the player and character collective consciousness since its inception.

Reality dictates that isn't and hasn't been the case.

This is untrue to such a degree that I still don't understand if you're doing this on purpose or not. The BK has, for irl years (I'm making this clear because I don't want the assumption to be that this is about the current controlling faction) had a hand in the Surfacer vs. Underdark dynamic and the reason that this isn't obvious is because everyone involved understands what a profound waste of time going after BK characters is when there's ultimately no method through which they can be pressured as long as they can fall back on the attrition meta enabled by the QB immunity of the keep. There simply is no way to disrupt a faction that owns the BK in the same way that other factions can be disrupted and if this wasn't such an overpowering mechanic I'd argue we'd see it in other non-ship quarters. The reason more quarters aren't QB immune in this fashion is precisely because of how powerful it is in the hands of people who are willing/able to use the advantage to foster a faction.

Inordinate wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:46 pm

The implication of it being "de-facto owner of Andunor" is that it would be shown as being projected outwardly, somehow managing to stand on top of all interactions with the city as a whole and dominating the in character politics in every possible way.

This is exactly what happens and I don't understand your argument that it's not (and to be clear again, I'm speaking over years and years of BK existence. This isn't specific to the current ownership faction). BK controlling owners/factions commonly focus on a power/influence incubation strategy precisely because they don't need to worry about being dusted out of the city in the same way that other factions do. And if you disagree I'd be curious to hear which particular faction you have in mind as having been forced out despite owning the BK because to my knowledge this has never happened precisely because of the Guildhouse's optimal positioning and immunity to quarterbreaking making it the ideal fallback shelter from which to initiate attrition oriented roleplay strategies.

Inordinate wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:46 pm

The main point of this thread was soundly dismissed and has been rebuked by the admins several times over in the last couple of years. It should probably be locked instead of being used as a soapbox for an unrelated topic.

This isn't true either as ultimately the OP's point ties in with UD political intrigue. While a new settlement would be interesting, I actually think the overarching design paradigm of the UD as a highly political space is very compelling and appropriate to an underdark setting. The reason the BK is relevant to this is because it's the exact reason that, despite there being three districts, the politics ultimately don't matter because they always end up heavily influenced by the disproportionate influence afforded BK owners due to the mechanically imbalanced nature of the keep.

Last edited by perseid on Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Underdark & Andunor

Post by -XXX- » Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:08 pm

Hiding away in a quarter (unbreakable or not) is a good recepie for a faction to fall into obscurity. I understand the pet peeve with an inconsistent lock implementation, but would seriously question the claims that it has any implication for Andunor's political environment whatsoever, much less to the degree to which it is being alluded to.

Also... what even is the "attrition meta"?


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Re: Underdark & Andunor

Post by perseid » Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:11 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:08 pm

Hiding away in a quarter (unbreakable or not) is a good recepie for a faction to fall into obscurity. I understand the pet peeve with an inconsistent lock implementation, but would seriously question the claims that it has any implication for Andunor's political environment whatsoever, much less to the degree to which it is being alluded to.

Also... what even is the "attrition meta"?

You misunderstand. I'm not suggesting hiding away is a good recipe for a faction to foster itself. My point is that a faction which is immune to quarterbreaking is immune to event/recruitment disruption which is an IMMENSE advantage as we saw with both the Syndicate and the Militant Ilmatari last year as well as with the litany of factions since then that have been pvped out of Andunor who I'm going to refrain from naming because they still exist and have their own ongoing rp. It's not that you can simply go home and roleplay with yourself, it's that the BK allows you to never be pushed out of the recruitment space. You are immune to consequences in that regard and within one transition of the only social space that matters for UD recruitment and the best temporary shops on the server which is a huge advantage as far as faction economy (yes Cordor has the Mercantile but compared to Andunor the Cordor Outskirts are garbage as far as Temp. Shop comparisons).

This is massive in Andunor where being pushed out by force is a very real prospect, so with the BK suddenly you can operate normally while enjoying the comfort of being within one transition of anything that matters as far as influencing the city if you're simply willing to stay the course and endure whatever pressure is applied to you within the hub itself. If anything the memory rule revision actually makes this strategy even more optimal because before the revision to the rules it could be argued that dismissing pressure was a form of poor sportsmanship whereas now you're obligated to forget pvp pressure applied to your character. From a meta perspective it's a perfect combination for affecting influence over Andunor as long as you're willing to put in the time.


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Re: Underdark & Andunor

Post by msterswrdsmn » Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:58 pm

I do have to ask; is people running into Boreal Keep to hide really been that big of an issue? Every time someone comes down to attack Andunor, my personal experience is that everyone wards up and runs at whatever is attacking. I can't say i've noticed people running off and hiding. Especially to Boreal Keep, which only a small portion of Andunor can access to begin with.


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Re: Underdark & Andunor

Post by perseid » Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:08 pm

msterswrdsmn wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:58 pm

I do have to ask; is people running into Boreal Keep to hide really been that big of an issue? Every time someone comes down to attack Andunor, my personal experience is that everyone wards up and runs at whatever is attacking. I can't say i've noticed people running off and hiding. Especially to Boreal Keep, which only a small portion of Andunor can access to begin with.

I think this is a hard question to answer for two reasons. The first, it's a general question. Andunor getting attacked doesn't matter. Most factions don't care if you dust everyone chilling in the hub because they have other rp going on and you've ultimately disrupted nothing. So no one looks to the BK as a guardian unless the BK faction is directly responsible for the raid. In conjunction, raids don't matter to anyone who owns the BK because there's nothing you can do to disrupt their internal rp or their players. Andunorians don't care about what's going on topside because ultimately their strategy, whether it's social or pvp oriented, is going to be one of projection and so as long as you can't disrupt their projection base you won't have an impact on the antagonist rp that's going on. It's not about turtling when problems come to town it's about being able to recruit (factions die if they can't outgrow their problems) and host events (boring factions die because no one wants to join). This is why I call it an attrition meta, because as long as you're willing to wait-out the problem and continue your efforts there's nothing that can be done to drive you out in the way other factions can be driven out. Meanwhile you, as the BK owner/faction, can engage in all the regular pvp tactics like actual pvp, quarterbreaking to disrupt economy, quarterbreaking to enable pvp teams into faction events, etc. It's not a problem that will be noticeable at all to surface characters most likely but its one that permeates UD politics at every level.

To build on this in a more direct fashion to your question, it always will come back to disruption. Given the proximity to the hub your recruitment ultimately can't be disrupted if you own the BK. Similarly, your events can't be disrupted unless you purposefully design them in a fashion that can be disrupted if you own the BK. The reason you don't see this leveraged actively in the face of danger is specifically because it doesn't have to be. You can simply fall back, wait for the enemy to not be online, and resume your normal recruitment activities or plan your events around the availability of your enemy. And sure, this is meta and not every owner does this, but it's the reason you never see real enemies to the BK arise. Because it's a massive waste of time and energy as an Andunorian to try and challenge the BK as a faction when you could simply accommodate them and move on with your life. But because of this dynamic UD politics never matter before the BK ownership matters. Because everything else afterwards can be disrupted whereas the BK doesn't have to contend with this weakness and, unlike owning a District, this dynamic can't be disrupted by assassins nor can it be disrupted by changes of District ownership in the way that things like owning the Dreadnaught can.


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Re: Underdark & Andunor

Post by Edens_Fall » Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:11 pm

Have you done a suggestion on the forum to have the BK immunity changed?


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Re: Underdark & Andunor

Post by perseid » Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:33 pm

Edens_Fall wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:11 pm

Have you done a suggestion on the forum to have the BK immunity changed?

I have which is why I haven't done a Feedback thread before on the topic, but it seemed related to the OP's post due to the way their suggestion ties in with Andunorian politics and the general social dynamic of the UD on the whole.


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