Impending Kensaimageddon

[RedGiant]

Kensai:

Due to ongoing work, and the longevity at which the path has existed outside the ability to be taken by new players, this path and all associated features will be disabled in a months time.
(27th April roughly)

Is it being replaced with anything?

Of course I still main a Kensai,

[MissEvelyn]

I will sorely miss the Kensai path, even if it was at the end only a speck of its former glory.

RIP, Kensai Path. You will be missed

[AstralUniverse]

The irony is that players with Kensai characters are probably super happy with this change (at least most of those I spoke to).

You have a 10 yo character, loaded with multiple millions in bank and loaded with powerful items, but you cannot Breach and your character is just a sad meme for the most part. Now suddenly these characters are about to get MEGA TURBO BUFFED by being able to use scrolls and dip umd and stuff, utilizing all the rods, mord gems, gate scrolls and whatnot that they've accumulated for a decade.

I, for example, have a Kensai character with 3 major gifts - about to become just a normal weapon master with 3 gifts. Let that sink.

[-XXX-]

I, for example, have a Kensai character with 3 major gifts - about to become just a normal weapon master with 3 gifts. Let that sink.

This is absolutely true and very good for that character, however I still would not call what most likely translates into 33 extra skill points game breaking, especially since most skills also require specialized gear to work well, which means most characters are going to be limited to 3-4 main skills by their gear and be forced to do a lot of gear swapping if they want to get full mileage out of their extra int gift or sth.

[AstralUniverse]

I was just giving my character as one example.

But really any character rich and gear-loaded enough to suffer this path (for quite a few years now) and not roll, should now feel god blessed.

[Freyason]

Sometimes you just don't want to play a mage, gish or character with epic levels of lore and UMD. I know Arelith is a high magic setting but does everyone has to be a magic user either through spells or scrolls/wands (this might be my pf2e bias coming through haha). Not that 1 APR bridged the gap but it helped.

Curios if there's something else planned, maybe for people that leave UMD at 0 and lore at 10 and under (for sorting loot) so not everyone looks lit up like christmass tree with antfrogs in tow.

[RedGiant]

Curios if there's something else planned, maybe for people that leave UMD at 0 and lore at 10 and under (for sorting loot) so not everyone looks lit up like christmass tree with antfrogs in tow.

This is my exact question for the staff. Maybe I'm too optimistic here, but Sincra opened with "due to ongoing work". If there is something new coming to replace it, cool. Otherwise, I wish existing characters could continue to be grandfathered.

[Xerah]

It’s long been a policy that removing grandfathered stuff is desirable and happens when it becomes an issue.

You get a huge benefit for this removal in using magic items now. That’s a pretty good replacement.

[AstralUniverse]

It’s long been a policy that removing grandfathered stuff is desirable and happens when it becomes an issue.

You get a huge benefit for this removal in using magic items now. That’s a pretty good replacement.

cough Legacy greensteel cough cough Ring of the Ram cough cough Ehem. Sorry.

[Xerah]

There is a vast difference between a few rare items existing and having to make coding exceptions (for something that hasn't been accessible for >5 years!) for new things.

[RedGiant]

Hot take: Just bring Kensai back for everyone?

I think the argument that it was just a straight upgrade to some niche builds (i.e. fighter 30) is no longer valid. The Loremaggedon update permanently changed that landscape.

[AstralUniverse]

There is a vast difference between a few rare items existing and having to make coding exceptions (for something that hasn't been accessible for >5 years!) for new things.

I disagree. The path is disabled for new characters and the code already exists. It is exactly the same as rare old op items. The only difference I can see is that characters cannot be traded to your friends and items can, which makes it worse. Sorry for derailing.

[Kenji]

Hot take: Just bring Kensai back for everyone?

I think the argument that it was just a straight upgrade to some niche builds (i.e. fighter 30) is no longer valid. The Loremaggedon update permanently changed that landscape.

Let’s first refresh on the core mechanics on Kensai:
+1 APR, +2 AC
Can’t use ranged except thrown weapons
Can’t use wands and scrolls
Can’t use non-mundane item special powers

Kensai offers two distinct themes for character concepts to build on:

1. the name Kensai, Sword Saint, implies a certain mastery in weaponry.

2. the mechanics that came with Kensai, which is the inability to utilize select magical items – namely scrolls, wands, and non-mundane marked item special abilities.

For #1, we have Weapon Master as a PrC already, so that fulfilled the concept for that particular name-sake.

#2 is where it gets more interesting, because there are certain anti-magic concepts out there. Templars from Dragon Age: Origin, Witch Hunters, inquisitors.

Now, the concern is that introducing a class which counters a specific playstyle that is casting magic can be fairly unfun for the opponent. Design-wise, if the whole lot of a class were to focus on anti-magic, then when it faces non-magic wielding opponents – the usual barb WM or fighter 23/7 – then depending on the design, the investment into this anti-magic class is likely of little value in that encounter.

With a class that narrowly focuses on anti-magic, it can be a polarizing experience for both the player and the opponent. Casters may feel helpless when faced with such a class, where the player may feel like investment wasted when they aren’t fighting any casters, be it PvE or PvP.

It still makes for great flavor and roleplay potential if we do get Templar-like organization from Dragon Age: Origins, however, and that is something we should focus on.

[Seekeepeek]

No moar Rock Lee, Naruto shall we a sad kitty cat teen.

[dominantdrowess]

Kensai:

Due to ongoing work, and the longevity at which the path has existed outside the ability to be taken by new players, this path and all associated features will be disabled in a months time.
(27th April roughly)

Is it being replaced with anything?

Of course I still main a Kensai,

The irony is that players with Kensai characters are probably super happy with this change (at least most of those I spoke to).

You have a 10 yo character, loaded with multiple millions in bank and loaded with powerful items, but you cannot Breach and your character is just a sad meme for the most part. Now suddenly these characters are about to get MEGA TURBO BUFFED by being able to use scrolls and dip umd and stuff, utilizing all the rods, mord gems, gate scrolls and whatnot that they've accumulated for a decade.

I, for example, have a Kensai character with 3 major gifts - about to become just a normal weapon master with 3 gifts. Let that sink.

Hot take: Just bring Kensai back for everyone?

I think the argument that it was just a straight upgrade to some niche builds (i.e. fighter 30) is no longer valid. The Loremaggedon update permanently changed that landscape.

Let’s first refresh on the core mechanics on Kensai:
+1 APR, +2 AC
Can’t use ranged except thrown weapons
Can’t use wands and scrolls
Can’t use non-mundane item special powers

Kensai offers two distinct themes for character concepts to build on:

1. the name Kensai, Sword Saint, implies a certain mastery in weaponry.

2. the mechanics that came with Kensai, which is the inability to utilize select magical items – namely scrolls, wands, and non-mundane marked item special abilities.

For #1, we have Weapon Master as a PrC already, so that fulfilled the concept for that particular name-sake.

#2 is where it gets more interesting, because there are certain anti-magic concepts out there. Templars from Dragon Age: Origin, Witch Hunters, inquisitors.

Now, the concern is that introducing a class which counters a specific playstyle that is casting magic can be fairly unfun for the opponent. Design-wise, if the whole lot of a class were to focus on anti-magic, then when it faces non-magic wielding opponents – the usual barb WM or fighter 23/7 – then depending on the design, the investment into this anti-magic class is likely of little value in that encounter.

With a class that narrowly focuses on anti-magic, it can be a polarizing experience for both the player and the opponent. Casters may feel helpless when faced with such a class, where the player may feel like investment wasted when they aren’t fighting any casters, be it PvE or PvP.

It still makes for great flavor and roleplay potential if we do get Templar-like organization from Dragon Age: Origins, however, and that is something we should focus on.

This is why I'm not switching my character's classes and things immediately -- as they said above; in a majority of cases ... the removal of Kensai is a buff; given what's changed. People severely underestimate how many classes are violently afflicted by Gems of Mordikinen's Disjunction, or the RP benefits of an Everfeather. Kensai has, mostly, been reduced to a meme at this point and it is only people with the "stand there and melee" -- who ignore true strike potions or try to tank people using uber AC -- who benefit from Kensai being changed. Those kinds of players die anyways, and they will continue to die.

I don't think this change negatively (or positively) affects the majority of skilled PvPers who understand their class abilities. Real PvPers don't stand there and give a weapon's master, or a monk, or a barbarian 6 - 9 or 10 attacks in a round: They move, at hasted-while-slowed speeds if they have to -- to break up an enemy's flurries, or they drink a true-strike themselves to get an enemy to back off.

At the same time, I lament the loss of an archaic feature; I look forward to the future. If a class is eventually based on this lore setup (My character has always - and will continue to - believed she serves a higher purpose than herself), prestige or otherwise ... I look forward to the creativity modern game mechanics can provide us without having to rely on simplistic game mechanics and hard bonuses from the past.

While Arelith has always - always - had the best modders and scripters available? I feel like modern class features, scripts, and toys surpass the things created in the past; the devs are badass and stand on the backs of Titans that didn't have their existing advantages.

Barring some catastrophic NWNX feature going defunct.. things'll be fine. Particularly if you've been around long enough to have a kensai in your vault. You probably know how to play (and abuse) the game and its mechanics to make kensai a non-threat. There have historically been ways to crash the server by attacking sonic traps with silence potions active to avoid the damage that involves 'too many APR' -- that are determined entirely based on if the server is currently under stress; and some Kansai-barbarian builds hit more APR than the 9 APR tolerated by the engine -- breaking the game's initiative system.

This LITERALLY had to go eventually. Yeah; having a flavor feature removed sucks but ... they gotta trim the fat somewhere; servers have been choking and dying a lot lately; and fringe balance issues are a great place to start. Think of it like Reckoning in World of Warcraft. Janky stuff is on it's way out.

[Freyason]

It’s long been a policy that removing grandfathered stuff is desirable and happens when it becomes an issue.

You get a huge benefit for this removal in using magic items now. That’s a pretty good replacement.

I 100% agree it's stronger mechanically since you can now cast at least several levels of magic through scrolls + items.

I'm just not fan of current meta requirement for every "competitive" build to be a magic user through spells or scrolls/wands. But I guess I could think of it as every build having to have discipline.

Sounds like something's being worked on in background so looking forward to it