WOF is too accessible

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Kalthariam
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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by Kalthariam » Mon Apr 10, 2023 9:13 pm

If I could burn a 9th level spell slot to resummon my Planar Conduit, like necromancers can (With scrolls) then it wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem.

It'd be annoying that the consumables I spent on the conduit are just deleted, but I could at least re-cast it, and yes. Nat 1's happen.. alll the time.. like seriously.. it's just like having too high of an AC, I swear the game gravitated mobs to hit nat 20's more often if your AC is too high, and if your summons saves are too high it navigates them to getting dismissed on 1's more often. (COnspiracy maybe, I dunno certainly feels like it)

Summon 9 gets run over in any dungeons except for air, only because air has built in dodge and concealment.

I don't actually have elemental meteor.. because I have 3 epic focuses, wand crafting, scroll crafting, conduit and a great wisdom to bump my clerics wisdom to a solid 40. I don't have room for meteor, though I wouldn't mind it. :(

But that's a problem with WOF being so prevalant still. I'm not trying to make this a thread about specific builds or whatever, but like.. WOF is too prevalant, I see it way too much and the fact I literally cannot protect myself from it, and it immediately just destroys my 1/day casts now is just obnoxious.


DM Poppy
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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by DM Poppy » Sat Apr 15, 2023 10:31 am

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Use Magic Device was previously used to access scrolls and wands and you needed only 21 to use every magical item on the server.

How is 50 Lore more accessible than that?

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-XXX-
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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by -XXX- » Sat Apr 15, 2023 10:56 am

UMD has a multiclassing cost, which isn't saying much, since nearly everybody splashed rogue or bard for it.
Loremageddon was a good thing - it didn't make WoF more accessible, but rather opened up more build options.


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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by DM Poppy » Sat Apr 15, 2023 11:03 am

-XXX- wrote:
Sat Apr 15, 2023 10:56 am

UMD has a multiclassing cost, which isn't saying much, since nearly everybody splashed rogue or bard for it - loremageddon was a good thing - it dodn't make WoF more accessible, but rather opened up more build options.

In a way, it was self balancing. You've got builds now that loose 3 AC to put 15 tumble instead of a dip for 30 tumble and 15 to 21 umd because they can't afford it with 33 lore.

For me personally, on a build that is tri stat, it is really difficult to hit 50 Lore without losing other skills that are benefit to my build.

I'm the nice one.. I promise :twisted:

AstralUniverse
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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Apr 15, 2023 3:25 pm

I'm going to echo a bit of what others have said: The only reason WoF may seem very accessible is because we promote and advertise builds who have access to it, simply because it's very important and the only answer to some summons.

This really has nothing to do with whether or not WoF is too easy to get imo. UMD is a class tax. 50 lore means not getting 50 on another skill. Skills are precious in this game these days so I dont see a problem except that maybe summons need more counters (and those counters should also be skill/feat taxing, like WoF).

Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by Scurvy Cur » Sat Apr 22, 2023 5:02 am

The pure and simple fact is that the reason so many people have popped in to say that they'd go to whatever lore level is needed to get access to the scroll is not an indictment of WoF.

It's an indictment of conduit.

Nerf antfrog.


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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by -XXX- » Sat Apr 22, 2023 5:42 am

WoF had been a staple PvP opener even bak in the days of vanilla summons.
Pretending that WoF needs to be a thing only because of antfrog is simply disingenuous.
Furthermore, Acid Fog is also a very popular PvP tool - people would absolutely gear Lore for that as well.

Finally, I ran into much more warlocks than antfrog users since the sequencer update. I wonder why is... :thinking:


AstralUniverse
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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Apr 22, 2023 8:38 am

-XXX- wrote:
Sat Apr 22, 2023 5:42 am

WoF had been a staple PvP opener even bak in the days of vanilla summons.
Pretending that WoF needs to be a thing only because of antfrog is simply disingenuous.
Furthermore, Acid Fog is also a very popular PvP tool - people would absolutely gear Lore for that as well.

Finally, I ran into much more warlocks than antfrog users since the sequencer update. I wonder why is... :thinking:

1) you didnt have items with enough sr to block items cl entirely back in vanilla summons days so that's irrelevant now.
2) WoF is a thing against antfrogs, on spellbook casters with WoF, and I guess sometimes as a gear check vs people who forgot to wear something with 26 sr. These are literally the only ways it's a thing and I'm sure you'd agree using it vs antfrogs is going to be the most occurring case from the three.
3) Acid Fog is good for pvp for it's saveless slow. You can just use acid bombs as they dont require any lore, or anything at all for the matter. On a sorcerer I cant even fit it in my spell list.
4) I wonder why, too. Because the semi wof immunity warlock summons have rn is a pretty recent thing and not at all related to the sequencer update. warlock summoner were screwed by that update no less than antfrogs.

Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by -XXX- » Sat Apr 22, 2023 2:56 pm

I wouldn't put that much weight on SR - yes, it's good, but characters who can WoF can also Breach.

Still, IDK what the complaint here is anymore - the team made a decision to basically remove antfrogs from PvP (sure, probably a good call), which relegates them to PvE carry duty for classes that are so unbelievably terrible (wizard/sorcerer) that powerful summons are practically their final lifeline in PvE.

Everybody gets Lore = means to delete antfrogs/dust on a whim, yet people whine that they still need to gear Lore for that (???)
I'm just gonna say : be grateful that you aren't forced to multiclass for that like caster builds are forced to multiclass for discipline (on top of all the gearing woes and unwanted skill focus feats) and all that at the cost actively nerfing the build's primary gimmick (lowering CL).

People seem to increasingly favor warlocks, because wiz/sorc suck and invokers still need to mess around with focus and multiclass for discipline, all while warlocks are the perfect spellcasters - they get infinicasting, get class skill discipline/tumble/UMD (i.e. can go optimal while CL 30), have powerful WoF/turn resistant summons that don't rely on mass haste, don't care about concentration checks and can solo pretty much everything.


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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by -stick- » Sat Apr 22, 2023 4:15 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Sat Apr 22, 2023 2:56 pm

I wouldn't put that much weight on SR - yes, it's good, but characters who can WoF can also Breach.

Still, IDK what the complaint here is anymore - the team made a decision to basically remove antfrogs from PvP (sure, probably a good call), which relegates them to PvE carry duty for classes that are so unbelievably terrible (wizard/sorcerer) that powerful summons are practically their final lifeline in PvE.

Its not dead in pvp you just cant carry it around 24/7 like it used to and need drop it at the right moment like after a mord or some kind of crowd controll, its at the level of an EDK now more or less


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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Apr 22, 2023 4:44 pm

XXX you must please differentiate between different warlock architypes and not shove them together into one character because that's never the case.

You are either a summoner warlock with very low pressure in pvp and you are pretty decent in pve but you're still out-performed by Defiler, invoker, hemomencer, really almost any shaman or cleric actually, with antfrogs and in pvp you perform worse than an antfrog summoner who had their antfrogs insta-gone by wof right away.

Or, you're a blaster warlock, and well, you're much better in pvp but your soloing capability is far far lower than any of the mentioned above, including summoner-lock and you cannot solo the same amount of content as summoners and can solo only a small number of runic chests. On top of that, you still have hard times in pvp against plenty of things. today on pgcc it took me like 10 minutes to kill a healer. in those 10 minutes I could die multiple times to 80 lore bs and items and harms if I was even a bit weaker and healer is meant to be a support class I thought. So even blaster Warlock in pvp truly feels... average.. all in all.

Also, those classes you said who need to dips? some of them get absurd saves, or ac boost, or access to antfrogs by dipping. Invokers and caster clerics have much higher ac potential than a warlock so they perform much better against high ab melees. hemomencer, too, gets 60 ac and easy 75~ discipline as a byproduct of having to dip for antfrogs. Dexlock gets 56 these days due to the cloth armors buff. Summonerlock has even less. So I consider the fact antfrogs are insta-gone in pvp an integral part of these classes design, or they would be absurd.

This leaves Warlock as the most fun qol class in the game, so naturally it's going to be popular, especially for people who really just want to pve and dont care about pvp, but if you want real power you pay the spell component tax and play a class with actual epic spells.

Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by Biolab00 » Sun Apr 23, 2023 1:55 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat Apr 22, 2023 4:44 pm

XXX you must please differentiate between different warlock architypes and not shove them together into one character because that's never the case.

You are either a summoner warlock with very low pressure in pvp and you are pretty decent in pve but you're still out-performed by Defiler, invoker, hemomencer, really almost any shaman or cleric actually, with antfrogs and in pvp you perform worse than an antfrog summoner who had their antfrogs insta-gone by wof right away.

Or, you're a blaster warlock, and well, you're much better in pvp but your soloing capability is far far lower than any of the mentioned above, including summoner-lock and you cannot solo the same amount of content as summoners and can solo only a small number of runic chests. On top of that, you still have hard times in pvp against plenty of things. today on pgcc it took me like 10 minutes to kill a healer. in those 10 minutes I could die multiple times to 80 lore bs and items and harms if I was even a bit weaker and healer is meant to be a support class I thought. So even blaster Warlock in pvp truly feels... average.. all in all.

Also, those classes you said who need to dips? some of them get absurd saves, or ac boost, or access to antfrogs by dipping. Invokers and caster clerics have much higher ac potential than a warlock so they perform much better against high ab melees. hemomencer, too, gets 60 ac and easy 75~ discipline as a byproduct of having to dip for antfrogs. Dexlock gets 56 these days due to the cloth armors buff. Summonerlock has even less. So I consider the fact antfrogs are insta-gone in pvp an integral part of these classes design, or they would be absurd.

This leaves Warlock as the most fun qol class in the game, so naturally it's going to be popular, especially for people who really just want to pve and dont care about pvp, but if you want real power you pay the spell component tax and play a class with actual epic spells.

I'll agree that there're too many different Warlock architypes that represent different angle of what the player want to achieve which diversify from PVE / PVP / Skill-dump / RP-focused.
The different pact of Warlock grants very diverse bonus to skills at -hard- level and extremist can often take loremaster to give it a further boost. The ability to take multiple-pact grant more RP opportunities but it is difficult to execute ( at least from myself ).
And those that you've covered in your post about PVE and PVP.

Back to topic about WOF though. the ability to kill summon and blind is what the Vanilla spell does and it has already been nerfed on the -blind- part. The spell allows you to kill all summons but do not prevent re-summoning like dismissal or banishment does on warding. The core purpose to put down fully buffed Conduit or Dust is truly needed because the summoner isn't just a lamppost that does nothing. The summoner is often a Invoker/Sorcerer/Wizard/Cleric and they aren't harmless. It takes a round to get rid of the summon and we cannot ignore the cost of a single round.


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-XXX-
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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by -XXX- » Sun Apr 23, 2023 8:34 am

ALL classes get lore and don't need to dip for it - getting to 50 Lore needed for WoF is mostly a matter of gear and the odd SF or ESF for some builds.
ALL optimal builds aim for 65+ discipline, which is also a subject to gear and SF/ESF tax (note that 65 is a much higher number than 50, especially since many caster builds start at 8 STR while nobody really starts at 8 INT), but on top of that caster builds must also multiclass for it, which comes with an additional CL tax - something that Warlocks don't need to worry about, which is why I used them as an example in the first place.

Point being: WoF's fine, Lore's fine. Take it, gear for it, use it and be happy that your beatstick doesn't need to invest so much for countering summons as a caster needs to invest for countering knockdown.

In the meantime, I really hope that the team addresses this glaring discipline vs. lore disparity as both are mandatory for any optimal build.

AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat Apr 22, 2023 4:44 pm

Also, those classes you said who need to dips? some of them get absurd saves, or ac boost, or access to antfrogs by dipping. Invokers and caster clerics have much higher ac potential than a warlock so they perform much better against high ab melees. hemomencer, too, gets 60 ac and easy 75~ discipline as a byproduct of having to dip for antfrogs. Dexlock gets 56 these days due to the cloth armors buff. Summonerlock has even less. So I consider the fact antfrogs are insta-gone in pvp an integral part of these classes design, or they would be absurd.

The dips are still bad - especially for wiz/sorc. You're primarily taking these for the discipline skill dump, which comes along with a 3 feat tax, because you'll also need at least a disc (epic) skill focus and consequently the SF+SD abju feats to make up for the CL loss.
The other cookies are being fairly overstated:

1) Absurd saves are moot - any build can get to absurd saves through gear - no need for Div dips (we've done the math countless times already)
2) AC dips - monk AC bonus is getting replaced by Ki Barrier, which gives around 3 less AC to non WIS based spellcaster builds dipping Monk by comparison. Furthermore, the methods that casters use to achieve high AC are heavily buff reliant, which means they can lose a huge chunk of it to dispels precisely because of the decreased CL forced on them by the dip. The oddballs here would be Palemasters (staple tanky summoner archetype), the Hemomancer (the empowerment AC bonus seems a little arbitrary and unjustified TBH) and the Div Sorc (bad) who can still get to 60 AC.
3) Invokers having to dip for Conduit/MD feels weird, but I personally wouldn't be doing that were it not for the discipline tax - they get elemental meteor, which is pretty good, so there'd be no need for forcing the antfrogs there.


Kalthariam
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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by Kalthariam » Mon May 29, 2023 5:35 am

Still waiting on non-warlocks, and non-palemasters to get some form of protection for their Conjurations, because it's blatantly unfair that a skill that literally anyone can access completely invalidates an entire play style of Casters, and it's super fun that anyone can scroll dozens of WOF scrolls and use them super easily to completely eliminate a 1/day cast spell without any repercussions.

Skills that literally anyone can achieve with almost zero effort should not invalidate epic feats.

Warlocks and Palemasters should not be the only two classes that get some form of protection against a level 30 commoner completely deleting your epic feats for the rest of the day.

Lionheart is a useless Sequencer spell for divine sequencers.

The Sequencer experiment as a whole is nothing but a massive waste of time and resources, there literally was nothing wrong with people being able to just buff their own conjurations, and conjurations having the lower floor of power due to it.


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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by Hazard » Mon May 29, 2023 9:29 am

Kalthariam wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 5:35 am

Still waiting on non-warlocks, and non-palemasters to get some form of protection for their Conjurations, because it's blatantly unfair that a skill that literally anyone can access completely invalidates an entire play style of Casters, and it's super fun that anyone can scroll dozens of WOF scrolls and use them super easily to completely eliminate a 1/day cast spell without any repercussions.

Skills that literally anyone can achieve with almost zero effort should not invalidate epic feats.

Warlocks and Palemasters should not be the only two classes that get some form of protection against a level 30 commoner completely deleting your epic feats for the rest of the day.

Lionheart is a useless Sequencer spell for divine sequencers.

The Sequencer experiment as a whole is nothing but a massive waste of time and resources, there literally was nothing wrong with people being able to just buff their own conjurations, and conjurations having the lower floor of power due to it.

I couldn't agree more.

I think not being able to cast your own spells on your own summons is just, a huge mistake that should have been undone by now. Just the very basic idea of .. I have <spell>. I cast <spell> on me, it works. I cast <spell> on my friend, it works. I cast <spell> on my summon, game says no. I have the spell in my spell book, my summon needs the spell, I cannot cast my spell.

If I were a new player, I would just log out immediately after noticing that my spells don't work properly on this server and that I'm expected to step outside of my class, character and the setting to buff them with Arelith Specific Crafted Devices, but I'm not, I'm a very old player with a lot of sunk-cost fallacy and so I'd like to convince myself that we'll get through these crazy times and it will go back to normal. Much like when we experimented with "personal loot" and could all loot gold from the same corpse individually, multiplying gold generation from corpses by however many people you brought along. GODS we were all so rich, lol.

Sequencers as an idea/item themselves, not that bad alone, because they can bridge the gap between what buffs we can and can't put on summons, but not being able to use your own abilities/spells properly is just not a very fun approach to game design and balance. It's just sort of forced all summoners into being artificers, crafting, collecting and using little magic tube devices to cast spells they already know how to cast, but can't cast, because of very immersion breaking mechanics slapping us in the face.

Still to this day I don't use sequencers 90% of the time. I don't find it enjoyable, I don't want to use consumables that I have to craft/buy on my summons, that's why I made a caster in the first place .. so that I will know those spells and be able to cast them myself on my own summons. The lesser sequencers? They're fine. Easy to craft, decent buffs. If I wasn't being FORCED to use them to cast spells that I already can cast but can't cast, then instead of being little RESENT WIDGETS I might actually be able to see them for what they are, an item that buffs. But with them comes the inability to play my character properly, so I hate them.

Sorry. I know this is harsh, but it is what it is.


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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by Shadowy Reality » Mon May 29, 2023 10:07 am

Hazard wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 9:29 am

Still to this day I don't use sequencers 90% of the time. I don't find it enjoyable, I don't want to use consumables that I have to craft/buy on my summons, that's why I made a caster in the first place .. so that I will know those spells and be able to cast them myself on my own summons. The lesser sequencers? They're fine. Easy to craft, decent buffs. If I wasn't being FORCED to use them to cast spells that I already can cast but can't cast, then instead of being little RESENT WIDGETS I might actually be able to see them for what they are, an item that buffs. But with them comes the inability to play my character properly, so I hate them.

Sorry. I know this is harsh, but it is what it is.

You can make exactly the same argument with mundanes. I made a dude with a sword and a shield, he hits things. I don't find it enjoyable that I have to buy 42 different types of magical trinkets to be able to play my class. I don't like it that even after these 42 trinkets, the summoner's antfrogs without any trinkets clear content better than me, and chances are, would defeat me if I didn't used my 42 trinkets.

Why is having to use a single sequencer item so terrible when mundanes have so many more?


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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by Anomandaris » Mon May 29, 2023 10:20 am

Shadowy Reality wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 10:07 am
Hazard wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 9:29 am

Still to this day I don't use sequencers 90% of the time. I don't find it enjoyable, I don't want to use consumables that I have to craft/buy on my summons, that's why I made a caster in the first place .. so that I will know those spells and be able to cast them myself on my own summons. The lesser sequencers? They're fine. Easy to craft, decent buffs. If I wasn't being FORCED to use them to cast spells that I already can cast but can't cast, then instead of being little RESENT WIDGETS I might actually be able to see them for what they are, an item that buffs. But with them comes the inability to play my character properly, so I hate them.

Sorry. I know this is harsh, but it is what it is.

You can make exactly the same argument with mundanes. I made a dude with a sword and a shield, he hits things. I don't find it enjoyable that I have to buy 42 different types of magical trinkets to be able to play my class. I don't like it that even after these 42 trinkets, the summoner's antfrogs without any trinkets clear content better than me, and chances are, would defeat me if I didn't used my 42 trinkets.

Why is having to use a single sequencer item so terrible when mundanes have so many more?

It’s kind of the opposite. I actually think you got the short end of the deal on this one. Now I don’t use spellslots to buff my summon or sequencers most of the time. And it still performs the job it needs to in PVE and PVP. Now a lot of the power is in the summons staline rather than the wards, which unlike the wards are not dispellable.

IMO this was a soft buff to summoning. Spell slots are key resources. Spell components are key resources. Life is so much easier now, but I hate the change. It doesn’t fit the setting, makes no IC sense and it doesn’t add any value to balance.

It feels like more reinventing the wheel, which is almost always counterproductive. There are so many interconnected, customized mechanical systems that you can’t change something and not affect the balance between it and 100 other things. And you’ve got a community constantly evolving and adapting around the changes to exploit any new vulnerabilities and create new balance issues. But this dead horse is not gonna start neighing just because I keep smacking it, so around and around we go.


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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by Hazard » Mon May 29, 2023 10:26 am

Shadowy Reality wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 10:07 am
Hazard wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 9:29 am

Still to this day I don't use sequencers 90% of the time. I don't find it enjoyable, I don't want to use consumables that I have to craft/buy on my summons, that's why I made a caster in the first place .. so that I will know those spells and be able to cast them myself on my own summons. The lesser sequencers? They're fine. Easy to craft, decent buffs. If I wasn't being FORCED to use them to cast spells that I already can cast but can't cast, then instead of being little RESENT WIDGETS I might actually be able to see them for what they are, an item that buffs. But with them comes the inability to play my character properly, so I hate them.

Sorry. I know this is harsh, but it is what it is.

You can make exactly the same argument with mundanes. I made a dude with a sword and a shield, he hits things. I don't find it enjoyable that I have to buy 42 different types of magical trinkets to be able to play my class. I don't like it that even after these 42 trinkets, the summoner's antfrogs without any trinkets clear content better than me, and chances are, would defeat me if I didn't used my 42 trinkets.

Why is having to use a single sequencer item so terrible when mundanes have so many more?

Sorry, that's a false equivalence. It's not the same argument, it's not even arguing a similar point.

A caster knowing a spell and not being able to cast that spell on a summon, is not the same as a mundane not knowing a spell and not being able to cast the spell on themselves.

Obviously a mundane cannot cast a spell they do not know. Obviously a caster should be able to cast a spell they do know.

A more similar argument would be if your mundane character had a sword, and he could hit anything with that sword except summons. He needs a special summon-hitting sword to hit summons. If he tries to hit a summon with a non-summon-hitting-sword, text shows up saying "You're unable to target this creature with this sword."

That would be dumb and annoying, right? Your character has this ability to do something, and it works, all the time .. Except for on summons?

Last edited by Hazard on Mon May 29, 2023 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by Hazard » Mon May 29, 2023 10:29 am

Anomandaris wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 10:20 am

IMO this was a soft buff to summoning. Spell slots are key resources. Spell components are key resources. Life is so much easier now, but I hate the change. It doesn’t fit the setting, makes no IC sense and it doesn’t add any value to balance.

I agree. It seems like an objective buff. Summons weren't nerfed, they were made stronger. Even without sequencers they are clearly stronger and able to solo content they couldn't before ..

But despite this, they feel far, far worse. I'd much rather weaker summons if I can use my own spells on them, than stronger summons that prohibit me from interacting with them fully/in an immersive IC way.


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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by PowerWord Rage » Mon May 29, 2023 11:55 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat Apr 15, 2023 3:25 pm

I'm going to echo a bit of what others have said: The only reason WoF may seem very accessible is because we promote and advertise builds who have access to it, simply because it's very important and the only answer to some summons.

This really has nothing to do with whether or not WoF is too easy to get imo. UMD is a class tax. 50 lore means not getting 50 on another skill. Skills are precious in this game these days so I dont see a problem except that maybe summons need more counters (and those counters should also be skill/feat taxing, like WoF).

Unless i'm wrong but sequencer was introduced to streamline summons.
And, the intention of the removal of spell mantle and spell resistance from sequencer is plain to see.
No matter whether it is Planar conduit or Mummy Dusts, they're just that, too powerful.
To top it off, the conjurer(s) are often powerful spellcasters as well unlike what is always said on how feeble or weak they are.
Elementalist / Hemomancer in particular, are capable of these conjuration on top of their already powerful spell casting ability and they're capable of clearing at least 80% of the epic content without much consumables in PVE while exceptional, in PVP, if they retain their powerful summon.

Sure, there're Clerics and Wizards/Sorcerers. Just imagine the scenario whereby a level 30 Cleric simply just spam WOF (blind) and have their summon with spell resistance spell on it or even better, resistant to WOF like the current Warlock, make quick work of any -PC-. WOF casted by Clerics -always- hit because they have superior CL and DC(not like it matters).

Wizards/Sorcerers have their Timestops, Mords, IGMS and plenty to add to their Arsenal. It's simply scary to even think of their powerful summon having the ability to resist WOF and there's no counterplay to that when they're not -harmless- spellcasters.

Everyone knows the direct solution and that is to nerf summons but, that is a hellhole.
No one will appreciate -any- developers if they decide to nerf the summon while keeping the summon sustainable to WOF because I can foresee that it will be a -hard- nerf. It's going to be painful and frankly, this only impact PVP experience rather than PVE.
If a -hard- nerf is to be applied, it will lose both PVP and PVE viability.

The current state isn't bad. If any changes were made, It's most likely very minor.
But i'll still believe that these very minor changes will be mostly negative experience rather than positive ones. It's just my gut feeling.


Kalthariam
Posts: 262
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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by Kalthariam » Tue May 30, 2023 4:09 am

Or you know. Alternatively.

revert all the conjuration changes that have been going on for ages. Put the summon powers back to what they were before they were forced to buff summons due to sequencers breaking everything. Then let people buff their summons again.

The system was FINE before all of this meddling. None of this was nessessary, all it's done is added more non-sense into the system, and it's not gotten ANY better since it started.

I still find it ridiculous that I cannot cast regenerate on my own summons as a healer cleric. Because it technically applies a buff instead of just doing direct healing, thus it just fizzles.

The BUFFED summons of the time before this sequencer update, were weaker than the unbuffed summons we have now. Summons were not a problem until after this sequencer update, because they had to buff all the summons to actually be able to do anything without buffs.

That's not even counting on the fact they then later added ways of people to get around the "You cannot cast buffs on your summons" non-sense, and only gave them to select classes, but that shouldn't even be an issue that came up to begin with.


PowerWord Rage
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Joined: Fri May 26, 2023 5:50 pm

Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by PowerWord Rage » Tue May 30, 2023 4:51 am

I do not believe that there are any buffs to the summon prior or after, the sequencer update.
I think that the sequencer update is more of an effort to maintain the summons PVE capability and despite how strong the summons are, there's a crippling weakness to balance it for PVP reason.

The introduction of sequencer basically removes the ability to cast Spell resistance spell on your summon and tbh, the whole idea about able to buff and counterplay against WOF has always been this -Spell Resistance- spell casted by Cleric to boost the SR to 42 which invalidates all kind of spell unless you breach it.
The above isn't the only concern but should be among the core concern.

Granting Summons the ability to resist WOF do not have any PVE reason and there's simply PVP intention behind this change proposed here.
That's a fact.


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MissEvelyn
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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by MissEvelyn » Tue May 30, 2023 1:35 pm

Tedious systems for the sake of tediousness are not fun. Tedious systems that are unique to Arelith, even more so. And not being able to buff your own summons straight from your spellbook is tedious, especially for newer players who come with the expectation that they're playing NWN, a game set loosely in a D&D ruleset, where you can cast spells on your summoned creatures.

I personally switched to semi-martials (magical martial hybrids) after the change came in, and not having to worry about runic sequencers is more fun and less tedious to me.


Xerah
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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by Xerah » Tue May 30, 2023 3:02 pm

The sequencer is the exact opposite of tedious. Summon + one sequencer click and go. That’s not tedious. Having to cast 15 spells on a summon was tedious.

If you’re talking about making one, that is very simple too (or pat the 3-5k in a shop)

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Anomandaris
Posts: 436
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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by Anomandaris » Tue May 30, 2023 4:00 pm

Xerah wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 3:02 pm

The sequencer is the exact opposite of tedious. Summon + one sequencer click and go. That’s not tedious. Having to cast 15 spells on a summon was tedious.

If you’re talking about making one, that is very simple too (or pat the 3-5k in a shop)

People clearly have different opinions which is allowed. I and others do feel like it was a tedious change, it’s a subjective notion. That doesn’t mean it takes more time to ward summons now, it means this feels like a frustrating and unnecessary change with a negative impact.

Overhauling an entire system to arrive in what feels like the same general place afterwards feels pretty tedious, and makes gameplay more standardized and bland. We just needed to not have summons with 42 SR cruising around, not reinvent the whole warding process. It’s like trimming a tree with dynamite and then celebrating the massive hole in the ground as a result.

The fact we can’t just ward summons like before, but have to use a special item that are limited by class, and spell selection, feels very tedious and “meddlesome” as someone else put it. I want to be able to just cast ultra vision or imp invis on my summon and should be able to do so; there’s literally no good reason I shouldn’t be able to other than someone else’s idea of “progress.” I can still do the same thing, I just now need to use a consumable crafting item (tedious).

The implementation is also inconsistent setting lore and mechanics wise, as you can STILL cast spells on summons using area effect buffs and there zero in world justification for it. What is the logic behind these spells working for a mage and not other? IC continuity should be important on a RP server.

Maybe it’s not the best word to describe the change but I think tedious is actually pretty on the nose tbh.


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