WOF is too accessible

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Kalthariam
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WOF is too accessible

Post by Kalthariam » Fri Apr 07, 2023 9:53 pm

It's far too easy for anyone to get access to the spell Word of Faith.

Adding this ontop of the fact recent changes have been made to where conjurers have literally zero ability to protect their conjured creatures from WoF now.

The fact you only need 50 Lore to be able to just use WoF scrolls is too accessible.

If we're not going to be allowed to protect our conjurations in anyway at all, it should not be as simple as having 14 Int, 33 Skillpoints into Lore, 2 enchanted Lore rings (Which you can buy endlessly and basin to however you like) and 5 Extra lore wiggled into your gear somewhere to be able to access hard counter spells like WoF.

Especially with the bonus skill points that have been given to ALL classes. Getting skill points to put into Lore is easier than ever on this server, it's too accessible for how powerful of a tool it is.


perseid
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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by perseid » Fri Apr 07, 2023 10:31 pm

Considering the past stance towards Whirlwind animation cancelling before it was amended to an instant attack I think allowing mobile scrolling or introducing a line of grenades that work the same as summoning spells would be interesting as far as helping summoners re-conjure minions without losing quite so much action economy.

Kalthariam wrote:
Fri Apr 07, 2023 9:53 pm

Especially with the bonus skill points that have been given to ALL classes. Getting skill points to put into Lore is easier than ever on this server, it's too accessible for how powerful of a tool it is.

I actually disagree with this part though. I don't think the issue is the ease of accessibility, it seems fairly clearly to be a power issue to me. 50 skillpoints is still a lot for anything else. You could raise it to 70 and it would just mean more stuff had to be stripped to accommodate WoF because that's how good it is imo.


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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by D4wN » Fri Apr 07, 2023 11:41 pm

Completely agree with perseid here. You actually need to properly invest in Lore to be able to use WoF scrolls. Or UMD to use the Grimoires. Both of these require serious investment in these skills and gear as well. Which are skills people can't take in other valuable things. It's simply a trade off.

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Kalthariam
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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by Kalthariam » Fri Apr 07, 2023 11:49 pm

I do not think it's that big of an investment. To be honest.

50 Lore is not difficult to get ahold of. 33 Skill ranks + 2 Int (Which is obtainable by a foxes cunning potion if you don't invest in int for skill points.

Add in two customized lore rings and your at 45 Lore. You can then either slap on an cloak that gives +5 lore, and has con + a free rune, or spread around 5 points of lore through all your other gear slots.

Getting to 50 Lore is not an investment. It's extremely easy.


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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by perseid » Sat Apr 08, 2023 12:01 am

Kalthariam wrote:
Fri Apr 07, 2023 11:49 pm

I do not think it's that big of an investment. To be honest.

50 Lore is not difficult to get ahold of. 33 Skill ranks + 2 Int (Which is obtainable by a foxes cunning potion if you don't invest in int for skill points.

Add in two customized lore rings and your at 45 Lore. You can then either slap on an cloak that gives +5 lore, and has con + a free rune, or spread around 5 points of lore through all your other gear slots.

Getting to 50 Lore is not an investment. It's extremely easy.

It's a large investment compared to most things was my point. It's something you'll dedicate at least a few gear slots towards. If you raised that limit the new meta just becomes that requirement because WoF is that impactful. Especially now that Greater Sequencers are relatively without purpose. There's no reason not to have 70 lore if that becomes the new WoF requirement as a hypothetical, short of the investment outright ruining your build. The versatility and blind are simply that valuable. Further, the lore requirement seems a silly sticking point when the Grimoires are what... 30umd and activate instantly? Which again, you could raise that too but all it would do is shift the meta towards heavier investment in umd because WoF is that impactful.


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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by Morgy » Sat Apr 08, 2023 12:32 am

With the heavy nerf to sequencers (removal of spell resist and mantle), WOF is once again in too strong a place.

Summons are now super easy to defeat again. My suggestion would be to at least make WoF single target. Alternatively put sequencers on a short cool-down.


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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by The Rambling Midget » Sat Apr 08, 2023 12:39 am

Kalthariam wrote:
Fri Apr 07, 2023 11:49 pm

I do not think it's that big of an investment. To be honest.

50 Lore is not difficult to get ahold of. 33 Skill ranks + 2 Int (Which is obtainable by a foxes cunning potion if you don't invest in int for skill points.

Add in two customized lore rings and your at 45 Lore. You can then either slap on an cloak that gives +5 lore, and has con + a free rune, or spread around 5 points of lore through all your other gear slots.

Getting to 50 Lore is not an investment. It's extremely easy.

Getting 50 Lore means not getting 50 of something else. That's the cost, and it's a significant one.

Anything that eats up your gear space is a constraint. By getting access to scrolls, you're almost certainly giving up another potentially useful ability or layer of protection.

Remember that everyone got more skill points, so there are just that many more skills you need a counter for to remain competitive.

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-XXX-
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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by -XXX- » Sat Apr 08, 2023 12:55 am

I like the change to sequencers.

1) powerful summons now come at a windup cost in PvP - people can't just show up "dressed for the party" with their summons ready to go anymore
2) summons are now much more likely to operate at their baseline stats during PvP encounters - so we won't see antfrogs just steamroll PC builds with superior stats so often (which has been a common complaint)
3) this makes undead summons a strong consideration over conduit (which seemed like the better QoL choice up until now as summoning antfrogs =/= raising a "PvP me" flag like mdust does) - conduit is 1x/day and after the first WoF it's gone, whereas a necromancer can scroll as many T6 undoods as their opponent can have WoF scrolls

That being said, this might be a reason for dropping the runic component from greater sequencer recepies - it ramps up their price that's hard to justify now after their usefulness has been so drastically reduced.

Finally, WoF has been a PvP staple since forever - its accessibility has been already addressed in the Loremageddon.


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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by perseid » Sat Apr 08, 2023 1:37 am

-XXX- wrote:
Sat Apr 08, 2023 12:55 am

I like the change to sequencers.

1) powerful summons now come at a windup cost in PvP - people can't just show up "dressed for the party" with their summons ready to go anymore
2) summons are now much more likely to operate at their baseline stats during PvP encounters - so we won't see antfrogs just steamroll PC builds with superior stats so often (which has been a common complaint)
3) this makes undead summons a strong consideration over conduit (which seemed like the better QoL choice up until now as summoning antfrogs =/= raising a "PvP me" flag like mdust does) - conduit is 1x/day and after the first WoF it's gone, whereas a necromancer can scroll as many T6 undoods as their opponent can have WoF scrolls

That being said, this might be a reason for dropping the runic component from greater sequencer recepies - it ramps up their price that's hard to justify now after their usefulness has been so drastically reduced.

Finally, WoF has been a PvP staple since forever - its accessibility has been already addressed in the Loremageddon.

I'll be honest, as it stands I don't see a reason to ever use a Greater Sequencer.


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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by Kalthariam » Sat Apr 08, 2023 1:47 am

50 Lore is really not a negative investment. You get access to many things you would not normally get access too, most builds I see passed around these days include getting 50 Lore to get WOF, because it's just that powerful.

The classes that get even more skill points are fine, Discpline, SpellCraft, Tumble, and lore are basically the four most taken skill points because of the power they provide. Lore even more so for the honestly not large investment it takes to hit 50 Lore.

Unless your specifically doing some niche build like sailing, there isn't a ton of options that you can invest your skill points into that give you the same mileage as putting them into lore. Scrolls don't take up that much inventory, and they weigh nothing, so even for a dex build it's pretty stanard.

Scrolls of Greater Restoration and WoF are considered "Starter PVP staples" because of how commonly used they are. It's not a difficult benchmark to hit.

It's also ridiculous that it's so easy to reach and completely shuts down entire classes as a hard counter due to the most recent changes to sequencers.

Conjurers now literally do not have a way to protect their summons anymore. The ONE option we had to make people have to take 1 additional round to blatantly dismiss our conjurations has been removed, because apparently taking two rounds to completely delete a potent tool was just too long for some people.

My levle 30 Fighter heavily invested in Lore, and it's given her access to protections defenses and things she simply would not have without it.

Investing in Lore isn't a cost, it's a literal investment that just expands your ability to do things, and gives you more tools at your disposal that you would not normally have without it.

It also lets you just absolutely shut down an entire playstyle of characters, that already were struggling for any form of usefulness.


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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by Helsing » Sat Apr 08, 2023 2:20 am

Yeah now summons once again will be hard counted by wof.

Unless you play a summon lock, whose summons has 32 sr and wof resist. Time to give up your antfrog and join the abyssal.

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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by Ork » Sat Apr 08, 2023 2:45 am

I weap for antfrog enjoyers (not)


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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by Kalthariam » Sat Apr 08, 2023 3:00 am

Not everyone uses Antfrogs.

Some people used the celestial or good fey Conduits, which were both objectively worse than Antfrog.

Just because you don't like specifically Antfrog doesn't mean conjurers being completely hard shut down now with no recourse to protect themselves is justified.

Some people used The elemetnal metor, and some people used mummy dust. All of these conjuration options are now SoL, because you can't protect them anymore (Unless your a warlock) and they are all hard countered by the same thing.


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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by Xerah » Sat Apr 08, 2023 3:15 am

This is all a good thing, from the lore investment requirements, to the removal of SR, good job devs.

It’s a weird state of affairs when we have complaints that summons are too weak, but I suppose we should be surprised

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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by CrashGoblin » Sat Apr 08, 2023 3:20 am

I hope now that summons are not as alarming that arcanists (specifically wizard and to an extent sorcerer, I don't know about the invokers) can be looked at for buffs. PvE is fine but in PvP their power is not that great unless you specifically build around Evocation and you have another Evoker with you.


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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by Exordius » Sat Apr 08, 2023 3:55 am

Was a bad change, summons are practically useless now in pvp unless you are either a warlock, an invoker, or a spontaneous caster that can just pump them out over and over. Its obvious now that the plan is to eventually make casters useless for anything other then buffing and healing in pvp since that is all they are good for now unless they happen to be niche classes. Might as well just play a mundane since they are now the dominant life-form on the server. :(


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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by RedGiant » Sat Apr 08, 2023 4:47 am

As this thread goes on, it is more correctly about the sequencer nerf. I agree with the OP and Morgy that we are back to a place where summons are rather easily countered.

I also think a missing point is that this latest nerf removes spell mantles and spell resistance, which were both breachable. With the lore update and the pending death of the kensai, literally anyone can breach with a 20 lore investment, gained either by gear, skill, or both.

You could argue that sequencer users could just reapply the buffs, but so could the antagonist simply breach them again. This was counterplay, since both sequencers and breaches come at a cost.

I'm not sure what the counterplay is now for the summoner who has a 1xday/rest epic summons out.

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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by Paint » Sat Apr 08, 2023 5:53 am

Xerah wrote:
Sat Apr 08, 2023 3:15 am

This is all a good thing, from the lore investment requirements, to the removal of SR, good job devs.

It’s a weird state of affairs when we have complaints that summons are too weak, but I suppose we should be surprised

Antfrog remains very strong against people who aren't prepared for it -- buying into the 50 lore requirement or having a class that can cast it naturally, or from a scroll w/o lore investment -- but now is utterly toothless against anyone who is. It's very binary, and that's disappointing.

The 50 lore requirement is mandatory for any sweaty PVP hound now, because it's a great tactic for dealing with one of the most oppressive defenses.

Do I think WoF is too accessible? Eh. I don't really have a dog in this race. I'm really on team, 'please buff casters so that they're the main attraction rather than the summons,' so any nerf to summons is good in my book. I just wish the counterplay was more interesting, or ar the very least, had more gradation than a literal binary.


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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by Tarkus the dog » Sat Apr 08, 2023 9:14 am

not everyone has 50 lore

and those who do still need to read the scroll, if ur summons dont badly wound them in the meanwhile uhh its kind of on you?


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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by Morgy » Sat Apr 08, 2023 9:42 am

In PvP these summons are now very easy to eliminate, even after major feat investment. In PvE they are still great.

That’s the difference.

Solution might be to lower some of the silly damage they do, rather than have them borderline useless to anyone who has access to scrolls or divine spells (which combined is most people I imagine, especially anyone experienced).

Better solutions would still be CD on sequencers, reduce damage of better summons (even just versus players) or even put WoF on a short CD instead.


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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by -XXX- » Sat Apr 08, 2023 9:53 am

Morgy wrote:
Sat Apr 08, 2023 9:42 am

In PvP these summons are now very easy to eliminate, even after major feat investment. In PvE they are still great.

That’s the difference.

Solution might be to lower some of the silly damage they do, rather than have them borderline useless to anyone who has access to scrolls or divine spells (which combined is most people I imagine, especially anyone experienced).

Better solutions would still be CD on sequencers, reduce damage of better summons (even just versus players) or even put WoF on a short CD instead.

It's fine:
We have powerful long duration pets for PvE that are vulnerable to PvP countermeasures and we have round/lvl duration pets that are balanced for PvP and resistant to contermeasures like Gate.

We're one EDK revamp away from everything falling into place.


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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by Morgy » Sat Apr 08, 2023 9:59 am

-XXX- wrote:
Sat Apr 08, 2023 9:53 am
Morgy wrote:
Sat Apr 08, 2023 9:42 am

In PvP these summons are now very easy to eliminate, even after major feat investment. In PvE they are still great.

That’s the difference.

Solution might be to lower some of the silly damage they do, rather than have them borderline useless to anyone who has access to scrolls or divine spells (which combined is most people I imagine, especially anyone experienced).

Better solutions would still be CD on sequencers, reduce damage of better summons (even just versus players) or even put WoF on a short CD instead.

It's fine:
We have powerful long duration pets for PvE that are vulnerable to PvP countermeasures and we have round/lvl duration pets that are balanced for PvP and resistant to contermeasures like Gate.

We're one EDK revamp away from everything falling into place.

Disagree :D

I strongly feel there are better solutions than making, as said above, it a binary situation where one scroll detonates a major feat. I’ve outlined some of those ideas. Most Gates are still WoF’ble first attempt and one of them even casts a hasted WoF.

Casters already have a huge amount of their features made redundant against other players. We can disagree though, that’s fine.


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-XXX-
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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by -XXX- » Sat Apr 08, 2023 10:15 am

Gate pets have SR that turns opponent's WoF scrolls into a coin toss kind of deal - trying to WoF Gate with consumables is akin to using DC based spells in PvP = not a very reliable strategy that can result in a catastrophic loss of tempo due to variance.

Let's narrow it down a little, the way I see it the problem's twofold:

  • most deep caster builds struggle with deleting other optimal builds in PvP without any outside help
  • most deep caster builds (especially vancian ones) absolutely suck at PvE without any pets to carry them

The problem is that the power level of summons required for them to perform in PvE is too high for PvP where a summon's job should be putting a dent into the enemy's hp rather than straight up roflstomping them entirely.


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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by Morgy » Sat Apr 08, 2023 10:20 am

-XXX- wrote:
Sat Apr 08, 2023 10:15 am

The problem is that the power level of summons required for them to perform in PvE is too high for PvP where a summon's job should be putting a dent into the enemy's hp rather than straight up roflstomping them entirely.

That's what I agree with. If there was a way of reducing their damage by a % against players? That'd be far less binary. I feel that's much better than making them poof so easily.


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Re: WOF is too accessible

Post by -XXX- » Sat Apr 08, 2023 11:03 am

RedGiant wrote:
Sat Apr 08, 2023 4:47 am

You could argue that sequencer users could just reapply the buffs, but so could the antagonist simply breach them again. This was counterplay, since both sequencers and breaches come at a cost.

This isn't really a good argument, because we're looking at an action economy snowball favouring the summoner here - while the mundie and the summoner can be locked in a game of breach vs. sequencer one-upmanship, the summons are still free to to go to town.

Furthermore, breach is single target whereas most epic summons come in multiples, so we're looking at a pre-WoF ground aimed mord being pretty much the only viable approach for addressing the sequencer SR/mantle.

That effectively put an 80 lore tax on the ability to counter summons before the sequencer SR/mantle removal.
While nullification gems and exorcism grimoires exist, they are difficult to maintain a steady supply of (and one still requires a 30 UMD investment)
There's also the weave eater rod, wich is extremely rare and quite frankly stupid and shouldn't exist IMO.


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