Monk Overhaul Feedback

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hugolino
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Re: PGCC Monk Feedback

Post by hugolino » Thu Dec 07, 2023 10:33 pm

Kenji wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2023 10:00 pm

I'm looking for feedback about the established FR Monk Orders and their particularities - how one would build their monk to fit a specific monk order's theme or mechanics

Dream offered a good summary of the halfling ORDER OF THE HIN FIST (aka the Hin Disciples) earlier in this thread, so I wanted to highlight their unarmed combat style, which was called the Way of the Open Hand, also known as the Way of the Empty Hand or the "kung fu" of "Shou-Ling" priests of the Shou Lung region. The fighting style of the Hin Fist was actually only one of a family of unarmed techniques by that same name (Kung Fu/Way of the Open Hand) in Forgotten Realms.

As described in D&D, the Hin Fist style used a foe's greater size and strength against them offensively and defensively. The unarmed style explicitly doesn't involve grappling, submission holds, or deflection of attacks. Rather, its techniques are intended to turn an attacker’s force to one’s own advantage rather than to oppose it directly. The style uses speed and tumbling to evade and launch attacks, getting under an attacker's guard to use the attacker as defensive cover, and tripping an attacker so that allies get an advantage against the now prone target.

The supernatural abilities ascribed to the Way of the Open Hand includes the act of meditation producing a Sanctuary spell-like ability (an "aura of peace").

Monks of the Hin Fist could freely multiclass with Paladin, Rogue, and Fighter. Members were exclusively halflings, gnomes, and dwarves (and, in Luiren, only halflings). They'd fit perfectly at Brog and Bendir.

How to build - Discipline of Body monk with possible multiclass to Paladin, Rogue, or Fighter. Grab Brawler, Pugilist, Ki Sprint, Ki Barrier, Drunken Fist, and Armor Skin as a Body path Practitioner, and -- if possible -- Open Hand of Deliverance and other feats from the Spiritual Path. Train in Discipline, detection, and Tumble. It is a pity that halflings and others of small stature would have a harder time tripping/knocking down others though otherwise I'd recommend the Knockdown and Improved Knockdown feats.


Kroatius
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Re: Monk Overhaul Feedback

Post by Kroatius » Tue Mar 12, 2024 6:44 pm

Monk Feedback go here.

My feedback on the second PGCC release:

  • Reaching Epic Monk will crash the server
  • Picking Unarmed Feat, the script will eat your BAB attack per round.
  • Many feats are missing description
  • Missing Meridian Flow: Yang

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Diegovog
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Re: Monk Overhaul Feedback

Post by Diegovog » Tue Mar 12, 2024 7:00 pm

A few questions.

In Dragon Sundering Eighteenth Palm (Technique) it says:
Gains bonus AB while unarmed
Is this AB bonus applied ONLY against dragons?

Is Martial discipline: Art of War an automatic bonus?
If it's not, then this feat wasn't added to PGCC yet, nor is in the discipline feat list doc.

Weapon Finesse doesn't count towards any of the disciplines?


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Diegovog
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Re: Monk Overhaul Feedback

Post by Diegovog » Tue Mar 12, 2024 7:05 pm

I also noticed there are no Martial Disciplines with any X to double. So basically Martial Discipline does not currently benefit at all from the Ascension of Discipline.


Coolguy McMagic
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Re: Monk Overhaul Feedback

Post by Coolguy McMagic » Tue Mar 12, 2024 7:56 pm

Currently Shamans and a few other classes get to use Ki Barrier in light armor. Will that still work this way if Ki Barrier is gained from a Mink dip, even if only the novice level is reached?


rediculouscowz
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Re: Monk Overhaul Feedback

Post by rediculouscowz » Tue Mar 12, 2024 10:24 pm

This new Monk update seems pretty wild. A far departure from the original vanilla for sure! So many different ways to spread the Monk into different Disciplines is a cool concept and as I can see, they would add synergy well as a multi-class.

I am concerned that I will not be able to re-select the feats I am going to be missing once the update goes Live. The feats and abilities I currently have for my Monk have been integral to their Roleplay - Garnered and cultivated over the years and refined into Who they are just as much as What they can Do.

If I'm unable to be immune to poison, how does this function under a Monk's Training? Or the ability to resist spells so wholly, as I once was? To be in tune with one's self so fully as to resist mind altering effects? It feels very much like a retcon of ability just as much a retcon of the Roleplay that's already happened. The Roleplay Is the Class.

Hopefully I'll be able to re-take all of the feats I currently have, otherwise I am unsure of how to navigate this.


Kythana
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Re: Monk Overhaul Feedback

Post by Kythana » Wed Mar 13, 2024 3:34 am

Some thoughts.

I.

Is Ki Barrier supposed to work as written?

May utilize Ki Barrier with Light Armor if multiclassing with more than half the character levels in: Ranger, Cleric Seeker, Cleric Warpriest, Shaman, Rogue, Swashbuckler.

Or do you need to reach adept Adept tier in order to make use of this part? For example, would a 27 seeker 3 monk be unable to use ki barrier with light armor?

II.

Monk unarmed APR calculation is as follows, correct?

Base: 0/-5/-10/-15

Bonus: 0/-5/-10/-15 [Haste, Brawler, Flurry of Blow]

If so, this looks really underwhelming for unarmed. I'm not really sure what the benefit is over dual wield.

III.

The rework documents says: "Gains bonus AB while wielding a Quarterstaff, or a Club" as well as for the other combat stances. How much is this exactly?

IV.

I'm a little concerned about Prayer and Reincarnation. Combined with epic dodge and the SR stacking that monk can get, I'm a bit worried this is going to create an un-killable abomination that is incredibly frustrating to fight.

And while, granted, we already have those, I think adding what is almost a second healthbar is going to make fighting monks very unfun. Especially since -pray already trivializes many burst combinations, and with the cooldown reduction feats, it might be more probable to deplete a monk's piety before they run out.


Kroatius
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Re: Monk Overhaul Feedback

Post by Kroatius » Wed Mar 13, 2024 5:00 am

Kythana wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2024 3:34 am

Some thoughts.

I.

Is Ki Barrier supposed to work as written?

May utilize Ki Barrier with Light Armor if multiclassing with more than half the character levels in: Ranger, Cleric Seeker, Cleric Warpriest, Shaman, Rogue, Swashbuckler.

Or do you need to reach adept Adept tier in order to make use of this part? For example, would a 27 seeker 3 monk be unable to use ki barrier with light armor?

II.

Monk unarmed APR calculation is as follows, correct?

Base: 0/-5/-10/-15

Bonus: 0/-5/-10/-15 [Haste, Brawler, Flurry of Blow]

If so, this looks really underwhelming for unarmed. I'm not really sure what the benefit is over dual wield.

III.

The rework documents says: "Gains bonus AB while wielding a Quarterstaff, or a Club" as well as for the other combat stances. How much is this exactly?

IV.

I'm a little concerned about Prayer and Reincarnation. Combined with epic dodge and the SR stacking that monk can get, I'm a bit worried this is going to create an un-killable abomination that is incredibly frustrating to fight.

And while, granted, we already have those, I think adding what is almost a second healthbar is going to make fighting monks very unfun. Especially since -pray already trivializes many burst combinations, and with the cooldown reduction feats, it might be more probable to deplete a monk's piety before they run out.

Currently, Monk APR is bugged, OnEquip() eats your APR, due to the effort to remove Monk UBAB.
The ab bonus is +1
Ki Barrier currently expects you to reach higher tiers to allow Light Armor/Wis to AC combo. Still working on Shaman/Monk


TooManyPotatoes
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Re: Monk Overhaul Feedback

Post by TooManyPotatoes » Wed Mar 13, 2024 8:13 am

Can I suggest that Ki barrier stay the same as vigilante, at least at the entry level

As a general note: I feel like this is an example where you're trying to make every discipline level feel meaningful for every feat but I think it's ok to have bonuses on some feats at just one or two discipline levels. Or indeed none at all.

New monk just overall looks very confusing. I don't really like that I'd have to consult a spreadsheet to see which feats correspond to which discipline to see how I can take advantage of a small bonus here and there. I don't see why some feats wouldn't have crossover between more than one discipline too.

Last edited by TooManyPotatoes on Thu Mar 14, 2024 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

Jodd Dovakii
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Re: Monk Overhaul Feedback

Post by Jodd Dovakii » Wed Mar 13, 2024 2:56 pm

TooManyPotatoes wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2024 8:13 am
Kroatius wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2024 5:00 am

Ki Barrier currently expects you to reach higher tiers to allow Light Armor/Wis to AC combo. Still working on Shaman/Monk

Can I suggest that Ki barrier stay the same as vigilante, at least at the entry level?

As a general note: I feel like this is an example where you're trying to make every discipline level feel meaningful for every feat but I think it's ok to have bonuses on some feats at just one or two discipline levels. Or indeed none at all.

New monk just overall looks very confusing. I don't really like that I'd have to consult a spreadsheet to see which feats correspond to which discipline to see how I can take advantage of a small bonus here and there. I don't see why some feats wouldn't have crossover between more than one discipline too.

Personally I find the change is pretty decent. A few descriptions on the different disciplines should be implemented those and there should be a category type of each feat on the side to clarify which fits into what into each of the four discipline types.


Norsepal
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Re: Monk Overhaul Feedback

Post by Norsepal » Wed Mar 13, 2024 9:14 pm

Hello! Just a few quick thoughts.

As it stands, one of my major gripes is that the Spiritual Discipline either requires you to take a Cleric or Paladin class in order to actually achieve higher levels of the Ascension, due to the feat list being about a third made up of feats only given by div dips, or essentially spend a bunch of feats on utility picks. In addition, it seems like Luck of Heroes and Strong Soul aren't counted in the PGCC towards that Discipline. The Prayer aspect is a fascinating niche, and I think that those things should stay in, but there should be other options given to the Spiritual Discipline to make up for what I see as a bit of a shortcoming, to be honest.

The amount of feats you have to take to make unarmed just work right now, not excel, but work, is three. You need five in order to make it excel, that's including one epic feat. It feels like there is no reason to even do unarmed on Monk anymore, when that was one of the primary reasons to even take the class to begin with. I feel like there is an excessive amount of feat taxes; although I understand the reason was to improve flexibility, it feels even less flexible than it did in the past.

I tried a weird Monk11/Swash10/Ranger9 build with dual wielding a quarterstaff, and it got capped out at three strikes a turn instead of four, it was very strange. Overall, it doesn't feel like many bonuses are applying correctly if the feats aren't being taken as part of monk leveling.


Kroatius
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Re: Monk Overhaul Feedback

Post by Kroatius » Thu Mar 14, 2024 4:16 am

TooManyPotatoes wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2024 8:13 am

Can I suggest that Ki barrier stay the same as vigilante, at least at the entry level?

I'm not the one ou should send suggest for. In the current project, I'm just a tester and artist.


Kroatius
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Re: Monk Overhaul Feedback

Post by Kroatius » Thu Mar 14, 2024 4:20 am

More feedback from day two of testing Monk Rework:

  • Picking Open Hand of Deliverance and Thousand Hand Godly Fist, ab doesn't stack, the bonus from Thousand Hand Godly Fist will disappear forever even after -relevel
  • Meridian Flow: Yin only works when you have Practitioner Tier or Higher.

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Zaphiel
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Re: Monk Overhaul Feedback

Post by Zaphiel » Thu Mar 14, 2024 4:47 am

Kroatius wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2024 4:20 am

More feedback from day two of testing Monk Rework:

  • Picking Open Hand of Deliverance and Thousand Hand Godly Fist, ab doesn't stack, the bonus from Thousand Hand Godly Fist will disappear forever even after -relevel

Unarmed technique ABs not supposed to stack. You can find unarmed techniques under monk radial and use them to activate your technique of choice.

Edited for grammar to make it worse, probably.

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Llopast
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Re: Monk Overhaul Feedback

Post by Llopast » Thu Mar 14, 2024 7:18 am

As an armed monk I can say the following:

  1. At this point I have not managed to create an ok armed build with more than 6 Monk levels investment (will try more, of course). If I go higher than 6 Monk there are problems with either AB/AC/Dmg, however the more monk levels you get the more survivability you receive (pray feats, edodge, etc.). It is sad, but ok;
  2. The ultimate trio of the armed feats are: 1) Ki barrier; 2) Flurry of blows; 3) Weapon technique feat (9 swords in my case). 6 monk levels allow you to take all of them - I highly appreciate that. 8 Monk builds can also take a Monastic version of the monkey grip to enjoy the double katana experience;
  3. Currently the most powerful & universal armed re-worked monk build I discovered is a Nodachi 6 Monk/ 10 Valiant Knight/ 14 Fighter.
    Nodachi/ Naginata 6 Monk/ 8 WM/ 16 Fighter OR 2xKatana 8 Monk/ 8 WM/ 14 Fighter are nothing too fancy, but rather playable. I liked the Knight version much more though.

Overall, I feel safe & comfy with my new armed monk. At least, I do not need to use the candle magic anymore to get good.
Big thank you to the developers!

"The terrible thing is not that you were deceived or robbed, but that you constantly remember this."
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Llopast
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Re: Monk Overhaul Feedback

Post by Llopast » Fri Mar 15, 2024 1:52 pm

Bug: the Art of War Master bonus is applied with only 11 Monk levels
Steps:
Take 11 Monk levels;
Take 12 Martial discipline feats.
Expected result:
+1 DMG (Practitioner bonus)
+1 AB (Adept bonus)
Real result:
+1 DMG (Practitioner bonus)
+1 AB (Adept bonus)
+1 Sure striking (Master bonus)

"The terrible thing is not that you were deceived or robbed, but that you constantly remember this."
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nosta
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Re: Monk Overhaul Feedback

Post by nosta » Fri Mar 15, 2024 4:37 pm

Contrarily to every other class, monks can only take improved unarmed strike, brawler, pugilist, stunning fist and deflect arrows as bonus feats and not as general feats. This seems like something that remains from the old monk, who got IUS, stunning fist and deflect arrows for free and didn't benefit from brawler and pugilist, but now that this is no longer the case it should be changed, as it makes it even harder to make a good unarmed pure monk build (precious bonus feats have to be used on these feats instead of monk specific feats, at least IUS and brawler, and also pugilist if doing an STR build)

Also, not sure if that's intended or not, but I've noticed that a whole lot of other feats listed as "general feats" in the "monk overhaul discipline feat list" google doc can actually only be taken by monks as bonus feats, and not as general feats. These include:

-Evasion
-Improved Evasion
-Defensive Roll
-Ki Barrier
-Empty Body
-Ki Sprint
-Purity of Body
-Ki Strike
-Improved ki strike
-Wholeness of body
-Still Mind
-Flurry of Blows
-Quivering Palm

Because of the amount of feats that can only be taken as bonus feats, the new monk currently often has to take a lot of subpar feats as general feats if trying to master disciplines other than the martial discipline, as most of the interesting feat choices for the other disciplines can only be taken as bonus feats.


Anomandaris
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Re: Monk Overhaul Feedback

Post by Anomandaris » Sat Mar 16, 2024 2:08 am

Can someone please take a look at the balance implications of having Pray on multiple charges, and buffed to boot, with a lower CD? I'm sorry I don't think any class should have that, it's an instant action cure all. It's just out of control regardless of what the rest of the kit is. Find another way to make that path viable besides god powers please.


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Llopast
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Re: Monk Overhaul Feedback

Post by Llopast » Sat Mar 16, 2024 9:57 am

I tried that.
If we speak about a pure monk, then we have 13 monk bonus feats.
In order to become the “undying pray machine” one has to invest:
2-4 feats bonus monk feats into pray feats (Prayer, Mantra, Hymn, Serendipity);
1 bonus monk feat into the death godsave feat (Reincarnation);
1 bonus monk feat into a Spirit shield (for 36 SR);
It is already 4-6 bonus monk feats out of 12 needed for the Master rank. The remaining 6-8 spiritual feats have to be acquired from semi-useless basic feats like strong heart, iron or epic will, luck of heroes OR even solely QoL bonus monk feats from the spiritual branch. This results in a dire feat starve. This leads to the quite mediocre or even low damage & AB. You are quite hard to kill, but your own life is pain (Loviatar approves).

If we speak about a deep monk with a divine class dip we basically have a similar feat-starve picture as we reduce the amount of monk bonus feats by taking a div class (which gives us some spiritual feats in return). So it does not help too much.

If we aim for an adept rank (11 monk levels & 9 spiritual feats) we feat-starve less, but we also do not get all the cookies possible. Namely we do not get EDodge & 1 godsave charge as well as there is a big difference between 32 and 36 SR. The result is quite mediocre again.

If we speak about monk dips, then anyone can take 3 monk levels for the 2x pray feat as it does not have any prerequisites (perhaps, there should be?).

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Quidix
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Re: Monk Overhaul Feedback

Post by Quidix » Sat Mar 16, 2024 10:04 am

What are the plans for the interactions with shaman and cleric? Both in terms of active synergies (Ki Strike 4, Whirlwind), but also anti-synergies (2/3 wis scaling for many cleric paths)?

As a monk, I can't seem to select Improved Unarmed Strike / Brawler / Pugilist on General Feats? (this makes it even harder to build an unarmed monk, beyond the hefty feat tax)


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ReverentBlade
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Re: Monk Overhaul Feedback

Post by ReverentBlade » Sat Mar 16, 2024 6:16 pm

Why does unarmed need to be so expensive?


JubJub
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Re: Monk Overhaul Feedback

Post by JubJub » Sat Mar 16, 2024 8:42 pm

Will descriptions be put on the monk feats? Right now, they're all blank so I have no idea what they're supposed to do. My only concern with this rework is players are going to feel overwhelmed with all off this and feel they will need to read all these spread sheets to get even a basic understanding.


rediculouscowz
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Re: Monk Overhaul Feedback

Post by rediculouscowz » Sat Mar 16, 2024 9:11 pm

After some fiddling in the PGCC, another player informed me that since Monk Wisdom AC was removed, they no longer benefit from the 'untyped' AC, instead relying on the Ki Barrier, which is shield AC.
This weakens the Monk and leaves them much more open to touch attacks, since Shield does not protect you against Touch.


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Edens_Fall
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Re: Monk Overhaul Feedback

Post by Edens_Fall » Sat Mar 16, 2024 11:13 pm

I'm curious as to why the monk AC was changed to Shield (deflection) type. One of my builds uses a monk dip for that AC and even taking Ki Barrier for the two minutes of extra protection, it doesn't stack with any of the other AC spells used. In short, I'm losing AC due to the change. If we are going to nerf monk AC and tie it to a timer (which seems to be the go-to these days), can we at least revert the AC type back so it can interact with other AC boosting methods? The timer itself should be enough of a nerf in my opinion. No need to kick a fallen monk when it's down, after all.


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Re: Monk Overhaul Feedback

Post by AstralUniverse » Sun Mar 17, 2024 7:42 pm

Edens_Fall wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2024 11:13 pm

I'm curious as to why the monk AC was changed to Shield (deflection) type. One of my builds uses a monk dip for that AC and even taking Ki Barrier for the two minutes of extra protection, it doesn't stack with any of the other AC spells used. In short, I'm losing AC due to the change. If we are going to nerf monk AC and tie it to a timer (which seems to be the go-to these days), can we at least revert the AC type back so it can interact with other AC boosting methods? The timer itself should be enough of a nerf in my opinion. No need to kick a fallen monk when it's down, after all.

Ki Barrier is Shield modifier, not Deflection. The lvl 1st spell Shield is deflection modifier. Or at least that's how it works with Vigilante right now..

Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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