Monk Overhaul Feedback

[jomonog]

I have a fundamental concern with this replacing the core class of monk but that is more a design concern and probably best raised in the other thread about arelith design decisions. In summary though this strays way too far from the core class of monk for my liking. If it is to implemented then I would favour instead deleting the monk class and calling this something else, essentially so as not to mislead new players to Arelith and also as a mark of respect to the original creators of the monk class.

Having got that out of the way, this certainly has some interesting new mechanical aspects, in particular with the scaling of abilities based on feats taken in each discipline. Its always good to see new classes, new ideas and new mechanics introduced into the game.

Without actually taking the time to create multiple test builds, Im finding it very difficult to assess on paper because of the overwhelming complexity of the possible feat and class combinations. It seems to me though it will likely need significant tweaking once builds start appearing in the wild, most likely by reallocation of feats between the path buckets and/or including new feats. I feel the re-introduction of ubab will probably end up enabling many similar builds that led to its disablement in the first place (albeit with deeper monk). I'm not sure if this will be a good thing because it does suggest the class will continue to be quite susceptible to changes in future.

For what its worth, my high level initial thoughts on various aspects of the class are:

1. Martial discipline - why do the feats represent only some of the monk weapons? This is going to leave some monk weapons underunused which seems counter to the design philosophy of increasing diversity of builds and options. I suggest either expanding the current feats or adding new feats to cover the gamit of all monk weapons.

2. Drunken monk - I really dislike the drunken mechanic both from enjoyment of playing but also from an RP and design perpective. I feel that fist monk will be essentially forced to build as drunken monk for the potential 6 ac 6 ab benefits and all other fist monks will need to be balanced around those numbers. Unarmed is the core archetype for monk and I dont like it being reduced to meme through what seems to be a gimmick that has been tried before with barbarian and never seemed to me that popular or appealing. As an aside, I also have personal RL objections to mechanics based on drinking to excess to the point of passing out but accept ofc that not everyone will share that view in a video game. Ive levelled a number of unarmed monks to cap on Arelith and other servers since nwn early days, so it has been one of my favorite archetypes to play, but I can honestly say I have no desire to play drunken fist monk no matter how OP the numbers might be able to reach.

3. Spiritual monk - I'm probably missing it but can't really see much use for this path except on divine dips of 6 monk using ki barrier and taking the extra CL feat. Building deep into this path looks very niche even with the potentially problematic extra prays and god saves.

4. Mind discipline - the viability or otherwise of this path seems to depend very much on the final damage numbers. I can see this ending up either completely ignored or otherwise becoming so OP that it needs to be nerfed. Again though most likely looks mainly for arcane dips but strictly a downgrade from current monk with that use case.

5. Dippability generally. If the aim is to limit the amount of viable monk dips then this new version of the class will definitely do that. Not sure how that promotes diversity though as a number of existing builds dipping 3will be stranded.

6. Ki barrier. I echo what seems to the general sentiment about this new implementation of monk ac since first introduced for vigilante. Its clunky to use and the downtime makes little sense as it just seems to punish pve. I would suggest no downtime no matter what rank. If there must be incentive for its use as between the various ranks then I would prefer the lower rank having an activation time similar to divine shield with the higher rank being able to activate at instant speed as I think this would at least be more tolerable pve than having to wait out the downtime to continue in a dungeon.

7. Monk saves. Having them all low and dependent upon achieving feats in each class I am not sure will result in balanced saves. I can see deep monks really suffering with this mechanic. Conversely, people who dip into monk will be encouraged to so in epic levels (both for the bonus feats and so as not to impact saves) as doing so can provide a significant bonus to a particular save depending on the rest of the feats that character has.

[Sacoroth]

After thinking about my suggestions and after further use of the new class, my only real request would be for whips be added to the monk weapon list. At the moment, whips are rarely used in game and historically monks used chain whips; as well, you can find references of monks using bull whips, though I'm not certain if that's more of a modern shaolin discipline.

Although their will be a lot of getting use to this class, I am seeing more and more benefits to the way it's being implemented. Well done to the team so far. One other thing I would ask is that more monk feats be selectable outside of bonus monk feats. It would be nice to be able to select some using normal feat progression even if only while leveling monk levels.

[AlonelyBard]

Personally, it seems weird that of all the monk weapons and choices, Katar is notably absent from any path, features or additions.
It feels like if we're going to keep it a monk weapon it should at least do something, because right now, sai is fitting perfectly into the spot of the Katar already for monk. It's already a pretty poor choice for Exotic Weapon, feel like it's just even worse when this hits and every other weapon has features for the class.

[Montere]

Hello there I would like to post my thoughts about this MONK UPDATE as a long term NWN player since the start of it.

But first: I really appreciate the work and effort to rework the monk to make it more interesting, giving it some disciplines!

THOUGHTS:
(1) Spiritual and Mind Discipline should be merged
(1.1) WHY: To make the feats for a monk better accessible. You play a monk and have to take casters class to access a monk feat, sounds weird for me. The combination of the disciplines would make a monk more a monk and not relying too much on other classes.
(2) Spirit Shield aka Spell resistance should be moved to Body Discipline
(2.1) WHY: Spell resistance is a main core of being a monk like lvl20 mind blank. The monk has trained his body and soul to withstand foul magic and the manipulation of the mind. In a healthy body lives a healthy soul it belongs together
(3) Keep lvl20 mind blank >> or add stronger saves for it
(3.1) WHY: Pala also has saves against fear, so should the monk too or have a bonus for will saves

THANKS A LOT FOR READING THIS

[Kenji]

Alright people,

We’re back in business.

First, all the love and thanks to Zaphiel for setting up the libraries and coding. His contribution on the development side made this all a possibility. Everyone, send his way some warm regards and love for his contribution to this project when you can; he is now busy with RL, but his fantastic work for Monk should be recognized.

I might be jumping the gun, as nothing is set in stone yet, but I want to thank Zadi for taking up the mantle of helping finish the project.

A gentle reminder: if anyone has any concerns regarding the design, direct them to me and me only. Make fun of me and my decisions, just not those who do/did the execution.

I plan to respond to a few particular posts that have helped shape the project. I will do so when time permits. For now, here is a quick preview of the changes to address a few issues as brought up earlier:

New Discipline: Balance/Ascension
Attained only at 21+ monks, this particular discipline will have different interactions depending on the Monk’s decision on their tiers of “mastery” over the other four Disciplines (Mind, Body, Spirit, and Martial); more details to follow.

Removal of Psi-related abilities:
After much deliberation with the team, it is not the time to introduce psi-related abilities or concepts (primarily via Monk) to player characters on Arelith. As this will set precedence on new lore grounds for Arelith, we don’t think Monk is a good class for that.

Stay tuned for more.

[ReverentBlade]

Patchnotes:

• We're turning off -setclass!

• Also, even more character-breaking reworks!

Losing wisdom AC is going to make cloth-wearing clerics with monk dips pretty much useless, and we're already squishy to begin with.

[Quidix]

How is the new Ki Strike feats going to interact with non-monk classes that use fists and get Ki Strike 3? (e.g. Vigilante)

Given that they won't get body tier, feels like they'll be materially worse off?

[Kenji]

Part 1 of response to Dreams' post

Fantastic post, everyone should read it

Hi Dreams,

I've been meaning to respond to your post for a while now and have finally had the pleasure of getting to it. But first I wanted to thank you for being a part of the discussion. I assume you can read Mandarin Chinese. If it is not a language you are proficient in, I apologize in advance. My response to your post has some roots in Mandarin Chinese that I feel are required for discussion and clarity (for whoever else is also reading my wall of post).

It might be better to think about aligning whatever abilities along with the setting itself and how monks are portrayed through the Forgotten Realms specific to some of the orders. Enlightenment for different monk orders means different things. A few examples and why I think they're great:

You can apply a great deal from the monk orders of the Forgotten Realms, since they are the famous and well known ones across the realms. It makes sense, therefore, for characters to have learned from them. It also makes sense for characters to learn within an order and then choose to leave it in order to find their own path.

Something I should have clarified first (which, I admit, wasn't clear even to myself until I had time to reflect upon it) is that the real-life inspiration for monk design is mainly for the mechanics of the class. The new feats and abilities will attempt to introduce as little to no new lore as possible to the setting.

The players can then mix and match whatever mechanics they see fit to the particular Order of Monks in the Forgotten Realms lore. While it is impossible to cater to every single concept's needs, this way, players have more agency when it comes to building their characters.

We have precedence for this, and that was the True Flame path (predecessor of Invokers) - following TF's naming convention, it introduced (lore-wise very incorrect) mechanical Sorcerers that would call themselves True Flames when the setting's True Flames are a brotherhood of wizards that utilizes flame magics to hunt down flame sorcerers. The irony, right? Hence, the name changed to True Frost before the path was ultimately repurposed to Invokers.

There is also nothing wrong with the design approach of using paths and predetermining the mechanics of a particular order of Monk. Still, at the same time, we would have to design each of them to a lesser degree of efficiency while limiting the roleplay potential. It's the main reason I went with the modular approach instead.

I can, however, understand the degree of wariness to real-life inspiration as it may inadvertently be seen as an invitation for players to use RL lore to substitute the server's setting at times. The modular approach also increases the difficulty of building and learning the class by quite an order of magnitude. Those two are something we also want to avoid.

Something to be done here is to make the intent of the design very clear and that a list of Monk orders should be listed along with monk rework. And perhaps a suggested build path/adjusted engine-recommendation button specific to each order without players having to adhere to it entirely.

• The splitting of Mind/Body/Spirit and Martial as disciplines? It is strange to consider these things separate because they're all the same goal. Martial is tacked on at the end, but really it is more the method of achieving the others when considering martial monks.

Yes. In the end, these disciplines are perhaps the same thing to an individual, but the paths that lead to the same destination can often vary. The split up of disciplines reflects the different paths one takes, both literal and metaphorical.

I came to this particular understanding through the studies of physics. There exist many subfields of physics: condensed matter, astrophysics, nuclear physics, quantum physics, optics, electromagnetism, string theory, thermodynamics, and many more- to some physicists (mainly my advisor from back when I was still in graduate school), they are all, in fact, often a representation of the same thing. It is through bureaucracy that many of these fields are split.

My advisor loved to talk about nucleus forces and mention that it combines nuclear physics, quantum mechanics, and astrophysics. He emphasized these fields very often reflect the study of the same natural phenomena, even though they were split between different fields.

But the split is necessary, as that is how one learns, to break things down into more digestible blocks of knowledge. Perhaps spirituality is the same, hence the split between disciplines.

• "The Art of War" is not a physical discipline, it's a discipline of the mind. Particularly strategy and understanding.

I'd agree if we're talking about 孫子兵法, which the literal translation from Mandarin Chinese to English would be "House of Sun's Treatise on the Usage of Footsoldiers." The book has much to do with diplomacy and mind games before delving into actual tactics or strategy.

Here is where, in my opinion, the English translation doesn't necessarily capture the same feel. The book "The Art of War" is very much applicable beyond the concept of War, be it diplomacy, business, interpersonal relationships, and whatnot. However, the context in which the book was written and the given title suggested otherwise!

The Mandarin Chinese title sounded grounded and practical, with no superfluous wording. The English translation of the title is relatively theatrical and has that extra flare/fluff, almost a hint of grandeur, if you will.
"Master Sun's Treatise on Soldiers" vs. "The Art of War," it's not hard to see the difference in tone and scale if anyone catches my drift.

What I meant by "The Art of War" was not a reference to Sun's writing, but the literal words itself, hence why it is appended onto the Martial Discipline for its flavor text. At the same time, I can see the counter-argument of how there is more to War than just skirmishes or battles, where tactics, strategy, sieges, morale, and even diplomacy are all aspects of War. Perhaps a better fit would be "The Art of Fighting," but that doesn't have the same flare.

• "Reach Nirvana" and "Attain Enlightenment" set as goals of disciplines is a really strange way to label these. I appreciate that they're thematic, but they're describing almost the same thing described by different cultures.

It's there to bulk up the feat count for the Spiritual discipline rather than try to introduce something spectacular on my end, really. I'd otherwise agree.

• Quivering Palm is based on a legendary ability called "Dim Mak" or the death touch. It's from stories and a fair amount of media now. This might better be considered as striking a precise point for internal bleeding, so that someone dies later. It could be thought about as a bleeding damage-over-time rather than the save or death. However! This ability might also be split up into other variants instead of just being focused on death. Similar to Dirty Fighting/Called Shot, if different places are struck it might hamper the opponent's ability to fight. You could consider stun, paralysis, daze, AB penalties, AC penalties, slow, all kinds of disabilities. Could also be described as a Long Death technique.

Based on this feedback, we'll redesign this ability; I like where this goes. I'll chat with you further on Discord regarding this.

• Dragon Sundering Eighteenth Palm represents the unarmed. It's great, but way too specific on hunting magical beasts. Whereas the Nine Sword of the Recluse is the only one of these techniques that will affect other player characters, so I hate to say it but this is the only thing people are going to build into. It's also focused specifically on Kozakuran weapons. It'll appeal to the weebs in the audience and miss most other weapon-wielding monks. The longsword (jian) / broadsword (dao - probably best represented by scimitar) fit this category as well but are notably absent. To fit the theme of unarmed monk, it might be better to swap these enemy categories between the two. Swords for hunting mythical beasts, unarmed for dealing with humanoid opponents (which is what all of the unarmed training focuses on!)

As you probably already know, the two are inspired by the famous Chinese fiction writer Jin Yong (金庸).

Dragon Sundering Eighteenth Palm was my own translation of 降龍十八掌 (18 palm hits to make a dragon surrender! ha ha terrible literal translation), along with 獨孤九劍 (Du Gu Nine Swords), where Du Gu is an actual person who studied the sword arts instead of meaning Recluse (孤獨, which is swapped in the two words). I use Recluse because the makeup of the Chinese words themselves could point to a recluse or a hermit, someone alone.

Both are works of fiction, but Du Gu Nine Sword, in particular, was designed to battle defensively against various weapons with a sword (vs spear, another sword, maces, or even fists, etc). I designed it to be a PvP one because the original work made Du Gu nine sword specific against another humanoid opponent wielding a weapon instead of the mythical creatures.

Dragon Sundering Eighteenth Palm, I took a bit of liberty with the translation and mechanics design because it doesn't necessarily mean that the fighting style is designed to fight dragons. The original fiction was that the style is so powerful that it can even assail dragons, almost as if challenging mythical creatures themselves.

Part 2 to come later regarding the following

• Drunken Fist as a style is not about getting drunk and fighting. It's about appearing to be drunk, moving in a way that confuses your opponent, and is 100% about deception. To actually have a character needing to get drunk to be able to use the technique is entirely misunderstanding the point of this style. Note that I'm referring not just to a single technique, but an entire style of martial arts.

- T'ai Ji as a stance is not only simplifying another entire style of martial arts, but probably attributes the wrong mechanics to it. Taiji is about moving with the energy of the opponent, but you might consider Baji as a replacement. Baji is about the creation of short-range explosive power in strikes or in direct response to the opponents force, so absolutely could be described as the kind of stance a monk would adopt for this effect. It's a generalisation of another entire style of martial arts. Could just as easily be described as an Old Order technique.

TLDR: I love the variability, choice, and opportunity for different concepts of "monk" to shine through. I dislike where entire important martial arts styles are reduced to a single ability that doesn't represent the heart of the style. I dislike that everyone will go for specifically monk/fighter/wm Nodachi. Forgotten Realms has a number of great orders to draw on and abilities could easily have come from these orders.

[Kenji]

Public Detail Doc updated: (with icons!)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2P ... uRQzcj/pub

Feat List:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... zT/pubhtml

Latest Changes:

• "Stance: Tai Ji" renamed to "Stance: Equipoise"

• "Technique: Eight Trigram Spear" renamed to "Technique: Eight Point Spear"

• Beggar Staff, Dragon Sundering 18th Palm, 8 Point Spear, and 9 Sword of the Recluse all have their racial damages shuffled around.

• Drunken Fist to be redesigned, not reflected on the update

New features:

• Ascension and Balance - see documentation

New feat:

• Serenity (spiritual) - see documentation

[AlonelyBard]

While I definitely appreciate all the changes with the recent update of the info, I've noticed that the Katar remain notably absent from all the techniques. As a weapon that is only gained from Exotic, Assassin, or Monk, it definitely feels like the black sheep here, I'm a major fan of how they look ingame and the overall aesthetic of them, am wondering if there are any plans to add them to the techniques, or if they are simply passed over for other possibilities in the future?

[Kenji]

You’ll only be more disappointed knowing that I recently pushed an animation update to allow Katars to be used with unarmed animation. It is going to be extra cool, behold:

I have other plans for Katars. They are, however, not under the purview of monk overhaul, hence the lack of changes related to Katars here.

[ReverentBlade]

Will Ki Barrier AC be reduced twice for things like Defiler/Cloistered clerics, now that its 2/3 anyway?

[Kenji]

Will Ki Barrier AC be reduced twice for things like Defiler/Cloistered clerics, now that its 2/3 anyway?

The cleric path AC adjustments specific to the old monk Wis to AC will be removed, and the Ki Barrier passive AC will become the default for those paths.

[Kenji]

Feat List:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... zT/pubhtml
New sheet for Techniques, Weapons, and Racial Damages for easier comparison and references.

Also new feat:
Technique: Open Hand of Deliverance (spiritual)
See documentation
https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2P ... uRQzcj/pub

[Choofed]

Feat List:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... zT/pubhtml
New sheet for Techniques, Weapons, and Racial Damages for easier comparison and references.

Also new feat:
Technique: Open Hand of Deliverance (spiritual)
See documentation
https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2P ... uRQzcj/pub

Will the Quivering Palm (Rework) be an instant attack?

[ReverentBlade]

So, I have a lot of difficulty making sense of spreadsheets and feat lists. Its hard for me to visualize a final build without being able to play with it IG or on the PGCC.

I'm curious what my character's build would look like under the new rework. As of the last public race/class announcements, I think I play literally the only defiler/monk.

Their class spread is 27/3, and geared for WIS and DEX to land the touch attacks and do a little bit of unarmed fighting (in PvE. PvP is done like a caster cleric).

AC is still pretty low at 51 fully buffed and hasted, and CON is low when gearing for WIS and DEX with only soft 5% gear. There is no UMD.

What sort of build should I be trying to put together post-rework? Is 23/7 with the CL boosting feat the way to go?

I am curious to see the designer's proposed build for this concept so I could offer more concrete feedback. The whole RP idea is making a whole martial art around the touch attacks to supplement them with unarmed fighting. Very Monk of the Long Death inspired.

[Naghast]

Okay, let's get to it.
First: new new thing.
Open hand of deliverance: this seems like a really strong style for survival and team sustain, although i couldn't help but notice that it doesn't add AB. still, force damage is almost true damage, so that's strong. I like it but i'm worried it may be a tad bit on the overpowered side. A free cure light wounds every round? and it summons multiple replicas. How will that act? Will i proc multiple cure light wounds if multiple of my replicas hit the target? can multiple of my replicas attack the same target? Will that proc multiple cure light wounds? Having 1-4 cure light wounds going off every round on me for free seems really potent, but maybe that's what monks need.

Now, overall things:
Discipline progressions:
i like the idea a lot, but i feel like the feat requirement is rather... steep. 6 relevant feats, 9 relevant feats - i'm worried about the viability of reaching higher stages in disciplines other than martial and body for dedicated monks. Maybe the feat requirement could be lowered? Or changed to something else, maybe. I don't have a particular idea for that though.
Ascension/Balance are cool too, but i don't have any thoughts about it beyond "that's a neat boon for heavy/pureclassed monks".

Monk ubab replacement:
Seeing monk go from reduced feat tax for unarmed to increased feat tax for unarmed kinda makes me sad, really. An unarmed monk has to spend 3 more feats (imp. unarmed strike, brawler, puglist) compared to a weapon monk, and aside from open hand of deliverance looking frankly cracked, it just feels like paying more for the sake of being weaker. May i ask, why is it like this? Maybe monk could get these feats for free, like vigilante does?

Martial discipline:
It's a bundle of weapon styles that add +1 AB and bonus magic (so, true) damage versus certain racial types. I think it's neat, but don't have any particularly strong feelings about any part of it.

Spiritual discipline:
It's the one that worries me the most. Putting 36 SR aside (will it be reduced by spell breach? Having to deal with 36 SR as a cl 27 mage just sounds cancerous to me), Monk having access to:
Extra pray charges
Extra death save charges
Allowing death save to proc in PVP
Extra benefit from pray
Reduced cooldown of pray
A bonus condi cleanse on top of that (What's the cooldown on Spiritual Serendipity by the way?)
Just sounds like it's going to make monks specialising in that discipline (If they somehow do. Which raises a question actually. Were the feats in this discipline balanced around it being seemingly difficult for a dedicated monk to specialise in this discipline?) Particularly annoying to deal with, as even if any spell lands on them, they'll have like, two ways to break out of it, one of which heal them a lot. And even if you kill them they can get godsaved. (Wondering about cooldown. Will they be able to pull a pray / death godsave multiple times in one fight? Probably not but still had to ask)
As much as i like the ideas, I can't help but feel worried about those things.

Body discipline:
No comment on drunken fist as you mentioned it's being reworked.

Overall, it's simple and provides useful things. 10% physical DI is nice, ki barrier is a must pick, equipoise is certainly interesting with it's physical biteback. STR + DEX mod combination here means a fully geared/buffed monk can get like, 20 bludgeoning biteback with 100% uptime. Really interesting. Although i assume it takes an action to activate.
Certainly has room for additions, but the current things there, i like.

Mind discipline:
Removal of psionic things was probably a good choice for overall health of the server.
Currently left feats, however, whlist simple, aren't exactly needed for the sake of power and interesting playstyle.
Two craftbot feats, one feat that's taken by arcane casters that dip monk, and one universally useful one (psionic and sonic DR/DI).

I feel like that particular discipline could use a touch up.

Old stuff being affected:
In the current iteration of the document, well - i can already say that several other builds that utilised a monk dip for X purposes are getting affected. Either by a noticable (minimum of 3) AC reduction, feat tax increase, or both. For example:

Shaman (monk dip goes from full wis to AC to 2/3 wis to AC for them)
Cleric -> Seeker (If i remember correctly, they were using both wis to AC and ubab for more attacks to proc their sneaks on)
Cleric -> Warpriest (i... will be honest, i'm only mentioning it bc i remember warpriest having some monk synergy)
Wizard -> transmutation specialist (a bad build already but it utilised a monk dip for both defense and offense)
Other wizards utilised monk dip for defense but not offense.

Are there any plans to possibly give these classes/paths a synergy with the new monk, to compensate for the power reduction?

[Curve]

UBAB is gone. Does this mean that unarmed monks will cap at 4+1+1 attacks per round including haste and FoB? I wonder if it is possible to make TWF feats count for unarmed. This would make base unarmed cost 6 feats and that is rough, but I have a hard time seeing unarmed being a reasonable choice when you can use a two-handed weapon and attack as just as many times.

I am very interested if I can recreate an old monk build with the new system. Can I make something with:
32-36 sr
full wis to ac
decent ab for fists
decent fort, good ref, strong will (to replicate mind immunity)
epic dodge
fast movement

I'll see if I can make time to pen and paper a few builds later if I can.

[rosediode]

My concern is that with my understanding with the addition of the Open Hand of Deliverance, certain monks will be more effective at healing a party than a Healer Cleric whose focus should be... healing. 60 points of overheal isn't really comparable to 4 summons both attacking and hitting a party with Cure Light Wounds four+ times a round, each. With a three level dip in healer cleric, that's possibly empowered as well. That's all really odd balance wise to me.

[Kenji]

Monk Overhaul Feat List and Technique/Weapon/Racial Chart:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... zT/pubhtml

Monk Overhaul Documentation and Details:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2P ... uRQzcj/pub

I'm looking for feedback about the established FR Monk Orders and their particularities - how one would build their monk to fit a specific monk order's theme or mechanics.

As for balancing concerns, it is a fool's errand to worry about balance at this phase of the overhaul (design/PGCC test). Everything can be tweaked later to fit the meta better.

Here's the general roadmap when it comes to the development of this magnitude:

1. Design
2. PGCC Release (function testing)
3. PGCC Feedback
4. Pre-live Balancing
5. Live release
6. Live Feedback
7. Post-live Balancing

We are currently between 1 and 3 as we have already gone through our first PGCC release and will be going for a 2nd round Soon™.

Because PGCC reflects Live meta poorly, we can't expect the overhaul to be balanced entirely for live purposes on release. However, the PGCC server is a fantastic tool for testing functions and tempering initial impressions.

With all that in mind and to reiterate, I'm looking for feedback on what kind of Monk you plan to build and what tools/mechanics you may be looking for.

A great example is this excerpt from Llopast:

I personally expected something jedi/force-themed as the force dmg type was introduced earlier. Maybe some correlations with skills like persuade, parry, concentration. A feat which would allow usage of WIS instead of CHA when it comes to social skills bonuses like the SW has. Maybe next time?

I plan to introduce some feats that have yet to have functions assigned to them to do something similar as suggested.

Another great example is from Dreams:

Long Death - Usually evil. Focuses on studying the boundary between the living and the dead, death itself. It leads to brutal training, a lot of killing, a lot of much more brutal and physical techniques and slowly developing apathy to the suffering of beings around you. There are so many ways to hurt people, break bones, damage organs, cause pain, and the great thing about this order is that there's a lot of variability in how your character might take this on. They might study these techniques to apply them in war, or to become the greatest fighter, or to seek the Long Death enlightenment.

Old Order - Usually neutral. These monks are known for being able to take an incredible beating, defensive combat, their introspection and philosophies. Probably the most balanced sense of 'monk' in the Forgotten Realms. Because they're sort of a mysterious order, players could take this in any direction they like.

Hin Fist (Halflings only!) - Usually good. Their order is about mastering the self, to then be able to master the world around them. This is done through self-reliance and solitude. This is a great one for the journey of individual strength of a character, particularly for new monks that are exploring Arelith.

I am very ambitious with this overhaul. I plan to go through the engine "Package" and "Recommend" buttons to alleviate mechanical hardship for players not as mechanically versed as some more experienced or established players. Packages will also serve as a soft way to help steer a particular roleplay or introduce established lore for players.

[Kenji]

(2) Spirit Shield aka Spell resistance should be moved to Body Discipline
(2.1) WHY: Spell resistance is a main core of being a monk like lvl20 mind blank. The monk has trained his body and soul to withstand foul magic and the manipulation of the mind. In a healthy body lives a healthy soul it belongs together

Let's take spell resist as an example. Do you, as a monk player, want spell resistance (though I'm not sure why you would given how much it sucks )? Right now, you get it for free as part of your standard levelling up. After the rework? You HAVE to be the religious monk type. You HAVE to be a quasi-priest/cleric.

I've looked into the origins of Spell Resistance, lore or rationalization behind that concept, if you will. After a discussion with Kuma, here's what I gathered:
On the sourcebook, it states: "Spell resistance is the extraordinary ability to avoid being affected by spells. (Some spells also grant spell resistance.)"

And then we look at sources of Spell Resistances in general:

1. Racial SR: Drow, Svirfneblin, Dragons, Liches
2. Spellbook SR: available to Divine Casters (Clerics and Druids originally, then Shamans and Favored Souls)
3. Item SR
4. Monk SR

From our writing lead:

I suppose it'd be selectively choosing what does and does not affect you- a sort of resilience against external pressures and effects. An extension of resistance to temptation, pain, distraction
But it could also be interpreted a few ways by individual monks
As it's a pretty freeform class
A Halruaan monk of Mystra may say they were trained by Jordaini viziers to resist magic
A Loviatan might say that pain from spells is worth less than real pain inflicted by scourges, so she chooses not to partake
But in terms of actual lore reasons for it? I don't think there is one beyond "control of the self, with ki"

Mechanically, it might not be too far-fetched to consider Spell Resistance to scale with the 3 disciplines - Body, Mind, or Spirit. And leave it up to the players for interpretation.

While the team actively avoids exception scripting, I think a specific case for Spell Resistance can be made here.

[hugolino]

It might be better to think about aligning whatever abilities along with the setting itself and how monks are portrayed through the Forgotten Realms specific to some of the orders.

I heartily agree with Dreams on this.

I'm looking for feedback about the established FR Monk Orders and their particularities - how one would build their monk to fit a specific monk order's theme or mechanics.

Below are a few more canonical examples of monks from Forgotten Realms quoted from other sources. Perhaps they can be useful inspiration for the monk overhaul.

• "BROKEN ONES (Good): Of all the popular deities of Faerûn, Ilmater is the deity most associated with an order of monks who act purely in his name." The Broken Ones "can freely multiclass" with other divine classes as well as "arcane devotees" and "swordsages."

The Broken Ones consist of monks and ascetic swordsages. Dressed as beggars, they pursue the paths of a healer (both natural and magical "lay on hands" healing) and a hunter (survival and tracking used to pursue tormentors). Their ideals are kindness and endurance.

EDIT: How to build - Martial or Spiritual discipline monk with Nine Sword of the Recluse or Beggar's Staff technique. Train in Discipline, Heal, Listen/Spot, and Tumble skills. Multiclass into Ranger (or choose race with Tracking), Paladin for "Lay on Hands," Seeker Cleric, Evangelist Cleric, Liberator, Earthkin Defender, or Bard.

• "DARK MOON (Evil): Shar is worshiped by a powerful sect of monks who maintain open temples in lands ruled by evil overlords or hide among hills, back alleys, or the Underdark." Dark Moon monks can "freely multiclass as sorcerers."

A secretive order of elite Sharran followers, Dark Moon monks practice the Way of Shadows monastic tradition (akin to shadowdancers) and specialize in particular roles for their missions: guerilla warrior, arsonist, poisoner, or mounted combatant. All monks of the order can tap into the Shadow Weave for spells like lesser and greater shadow tentacle. Their ideals are strength and power.

EDIT: How to build - Body discipline monk. Multiclass into Shadowdancer, Sorcerer, Rogue, Seeker Cleric, Vigilante, or Cavalier. If Sorcerer multiclass, Mind discipline monk with Incandescence. Train in Hide, Lore, Move Silently, and Ride skills (cross-class skill Spellcraft).

• "SHINING HAND (Neutral): The Shining Hand is one of the oldest monk orders of Amn, mixing faith in Azuth and the practice of wizardry with monastic devotions. Amn's crackdown on the practice of wizardry has sent some Shining Hand groups underground and sent others out into the wider world." Shining Hand monks can "freely multiclass as wizards."

Shining Hand monks are devoted to the god of spells and craft a variety of unique enchanted robes. Their ideal is arcane spellcraft.

EDIT: How to build - Mind discipline monk. Multiclass into Wizard, Commoner, Specialist, and/or Loremaster. If Wizard multiclass, grab Incandescence. Train in Craft Mastery and Lore skills (cross-class skill Spellcraft).

• "SUN SOUL (Good or Neutral): The allegiance of this widespread, but disorganized sect varies between groups, some following Lathander, others Selûne, and a few devoted to Sune. The Sun Soul order, long with the Old Order, is the most likely to have monasteries hidden in far flung wilderness areas." Sun Soul monks can freely dual class.

The Order of the Sun Soul thrived in the time of Netheril and survived its fall. They acquired several unique abilities, such as the ability to radiate magical light from their bodies and clothes, the ability to turn their hands into flaming weapons, and spell-like abilities (radiant sun bolt, searing sunburst, sun shield, mastery of death, and searing arc strike). Their ideal is service to the common folk.

EDIT: How to build - I don't see any way to do so.

• "YELLOW ROSE (Good, Neutral): Also known as the Disciples of Saint Sollars (the Twice-Martyred), this solitary monastery of Ilmater worshipers in the Earthspur Mountains of Damara is known for loyalty to its allies and destruction to its enemies. Greatly respected on matters of truth and diplomacy, the monks work hard to survive in their harsh remote sanctuary. The monks often travel with Ilmataran paladins, particularly from the Order of the Golden Cup." Yellow Rose monks can "multiclass freely as rangers and shadowdancers."

The Yellow Rose monks have three sub-orders: the Order of the Chisel (artisans, vintners, cooks, etc. who are also good martial artists), the Order of the Rose (ascetics, priests, warriors, and adventurers who are also the best martial artists and spellcasters), and the Order of the Scroll (librarians who on rare occasion were martial artists or spellcasters). Their ideals are simplicity and creating beauty in hardship.

EDIT: How to build - Mind and Martial Discipline monk. Multiclass into cleric, ranger, shadowdancer, commoner (Order of the Chisel), specialist (Order of the Chisel), or loremaster (Order of the Scroll). Train in Craft Mastery (Order of the Chisel), Hide, Lore, and Move Silently skills (cross-class skill Leadership).

The D&D realm of Eberron also has monks, though I'm unsure if they are relevant here.

• MONASTERY OF ORLA-UN (Lawful): The warrior-monks of the Monastery of Orla-un are famed for sweet, dark Orla-un wine as well as their teachings of strong minds and stronger bodies.

• PATH OF LIGHT (Lawful Neutral): Followers of a celestial force called Il-Yannah (aka "the Great Light" ) engage in meditation and strict physical discipline, preparing mind and body for battle against a force they call the Dreaming Dark. Their true struggle is based in philosophy and dreams. Followers of the Path of Light are often psionicists.

EDIT: The Neverwinter Nights monk I've played longest on a roleplaying server was a monk of the Path of Light, which I played like a psionic gray Jedi -- it definitely was my favorite monk to play. I've also played many other monks on roleplaying servers -- from philosophers to natural Eastern healers to western-style monks. As a former real life monk and a graduate in philosophy, monks are my favorite class outside of Arelith and I've played them heavily. But I didn't enjoy Arelith's version of a monk whenever I've tried it so have little experience on this server with it. What I disliked most with Arelith's monks has been their lower speed, but they also lack innovations to monks found elsewhere. I'm curious to see how they turn out now

[Kenji]

Latest but last additions to the public documents before 2nd PGCC release:

1. Skilled Rhetorician:
   • Adds the Intelligence modifier to Intimidation and Bluff
2. Exemplary Orator:
   • Adds the Wisdom modifier to Leadership and Perform
3. Incandescence and Tempered Soul now have tiered CL scaling

Preparation for PGCC release shall resume shortly.

[Naghast]

Can master debater be stacked with panache for double intelligence modifier to social skills

[Kenji]

Can master debater be stacked with panache for double intelligence modifier to social skills

Yes