Monk Overhaul Feedback

[Waldo52]

Perhaps the rework should be scrapped and monk be left alone; don't fix what isn't broken.

-3 good saves
-Untouchable AC plus Epic Dodge
-Described as "virtually unkillable" by the dev team
-Fast enough to escape from any undesirable fights

Whatever you think about the rework, can we please avoid the narrative that monks were fine? It strikes me as completely divorced from reality as a non-monk player who has dealt with monks. The closest thing that monks had to a "weakness" was that their damage was lowish and it took them a long time to win almost every fight.

[Whosdis]

Perhaps the rework should be scrapped and monk be left alone; don't fix what isn't broken.

-3 good saves
-Untouchable AC plus Epic Dodge
-Described as "virtually unkillable" by the dev team
-Fast enough to escape from any undesirable fights

Whatever you think about the rework, can we please avoid the narrative that monks were fine? It strikes me as completely divorced from reality as a non-monk player who has dealt with monks. The closest thing that monks had to a "weakness" was that their damage was lowish and it took them a long time to win almost every fight.

Absolutely silly. For craps n gigglez I bumped into the EMA +Epic Dodge monk build. It's unkillable but also inconsequential beyond their EMD, and 2x Create Greater Undead.

I've gone through the mixed of someone's ranting about monk; they were not particularly good at fights, contrary to your belief. They have mediocre staying power but I struggle to think of how someone wouldnt be able to handle them in 1v1's.

If you mean they can viet cong style stubborn people who take the bait and keep chasing, sure, but otherwise the monk just flees. Furthermore, this is easily (and I would argue more effective) replicated by any class with adequate stealth +sneak attack.

I'm not too concerned about the whole design other than the aforementioned monk being underwhelming, but it makes a cushy dump class and gives options for utilizing wisdom on builds that don't get shields. (Wizards, Seeker Clerics, any archer. Theoretically and 2hander can throw their chips in if it's worth it for them.)

This makes monk a crappy dip option. Is that a fair way of appraising the rework? Perhaps not. Nonetheless here I am. (Shields suck and dipping 15 points into parry feels underwhelming. Help the antishielders out! Shields are the devil. Or maybe implement some less unsightly, more arm brace options.)

[EnigmaticSpirit]

I'm not good at mechanics or building. I am no expert. But I feel the spiritual path as it is, is broken with a potential to significantly affect game balance.

You're looking at SR36, which will force mages to invest heavily into spell penetration to even stand a chance.
And as others have dubbed them, an "unkillable pray machine".

There's a way to make spiritual monks stand out, but I don't feel this is it.

Also I personally feel there's a distinct lack of hadouken. (This is semi serious, but really, monks being able to actually deal some damage rather than stand there and tickle their opponents would be very nice.)

[nosta]

believe the sentiment from the team and myself on this were "no" a while back because it'd further enable "fighting these dragons and demonic beings with just your fist!" which is counter to the immersion. While one already can do so, fist fighting is not something that should be on par with weapon fighting. And players who want to make fistfighting a focus on their characters should recognize that it is, while viable, a suboptimal option by choice. At least that is the intention behind the design.

I want to reply to this, even though it's been a long time, because I feel that this line of thinking probably had a part in how difficult to build the new unarmed monk has been made.

My counterpoint: we play in a fantasy world. It's well established that some beings in this world have supernatural powers, be it using the Weave to cast magic spells or using one's ki to make one's hands and feet into deadly weapons. Both are grounded in DnD lore, so to say that one is more disruptive to immersion than the other seems very arbitrary.

So to nerf unarmed monks on these grounds seems unfair for fans of fist monks. Sure, for classes that do not have any particular powers to specifically enhance their unarmed fighting, it makes sense that weapons are better. But ki-enhanced unarmed fighting is one of the monk's signature skills.

[ReverentBlade]

Its a flatly dumb sentiment in the verisimilitude of the setting. There's no reason enchanted, adamantine knuckle dusters should be worse than any other enchanted, adamantine bludgeoning weapon.

[Anomandaris]

believe the sentiment from the team and myself on this were "no" a while back because it'd further enable "fighting these dragons and demonic beings with just your fist!" which is counter to the immersion. While one already can do so, fist fighting is not something that should be on par with weapon fighting. And players who want to make fistfighting a focus on their characters should recognize that it is, while viable, a suboptimal option by choice. At least that is the intention behind the design.

I want to reply to this, even though it's been a long time, because I feel that this line of thinking probably had a part in how difficult to build the new unarmed monk has been made.

My counterpoint: we play in a fantasy world. It's well established that some beings in this world have supernatural powers, be it using the Weave to cast magic spells or using one's ki to make one's hands and feet into deadly weapons. Both are grounded in DnD lore, so to say that one is more disruptive to immersion than the other seems very arbitrary.

So to nerf unarmed monks on these grounds seems unfair for fans of fist monks. Sure, for classes that do not have any particular powers to specifically enhance their unarmed fighting, it makes sense that weapons are better. But ki-enhanced unarmed fighting is one of the monk's signature skills.

This makes zero sense in the setting. How are we making the argument about immersion breaking when it's quite literally part of the setting we're immersing ourselves into?

There's no way I should be standing in front of a dragon period, they don't exist. Let alone shooting negative energy at it, or stabbing it with tiny little daggers...

It's an interesting niche of the class to be ABLE to pull of unarmed fighting by virtue of Ki unlike others. It's part of what made it unique and differentiated from other martial classes.