Monk Overhaul Feedback

[Llopast]

Last update: 05.04.24.
Below are some suggestions/ideas for the re-worked feats and the disciplines overall:

Martial Discipline
The problems I see here is that unarmed monk is now way more expensive than armed one which feels strange. I personally tried to build several versions of the unarmed monk and it is extra painful feat-wise as well as stat-wise (no idea how people are going to gear up without 5%-ed 4-stat items now).

1. Improve the Quivering Palm DC
Reasoning: Current DC is 10 + X + Monk Levels / 3 (X is Wis Mod ) means lvl 30 monk with 16 base wisdom (28 buffed = 9 mod) will have 10 + 9 + 30/3 = 29 DC. This means that 80% of the enemies (including players) will be immune to it (I assume the nat-1-fishing with an instant attack with 10 sec CD is impossible).
Throw in the additional X (Body Discipline Tier) to the DC or make it Monk Levels / 2. Otherwise it is unusable as well as wastes 1 APR. And it is not a free feat anymore, btw.

2. Re-work the Circle kick feat into an instant attack
Requires: 17 Monk, Knockdown feat (27.03.24 Update)
Whirlwind aoe area, DMG -4, AB -4, 9 sec CD, attempt to knockdown the enemies at 10 + Wis Mod + X (Martial Discipline Tier) + Monk Levels / 3 vs reflex. Can be used while armed & unarmed.
Reasoning: Instant attacks are useful and needed in the current Meta. Feat starve does not allow deep monks to take 4 feats needed for the whirlwind without severe sacrifices. Furthermore, the Quivering Palm is unavailable to the armed monks. The situation provokes to deny deep monk and instead go deep into multiclassing. Monks who decide to take both the Quivering Palm and the Circle kick will switch between them making the class more interactive and interesting to fight with. Also this will be another ability which stimulates to go into WIS- instead of CHA-monks.

3. Stance: Iron Grip of the Eagle's Talon (29.03.24 Update: moved here as it suits more to the Martial Discipline. Edited the effect)
While the stance is active the monk ignores enemies' tumble skill rolls and the Spring attack feat. Does not ignore the AC bonus from the tumble skill. Removes the limit on the amount of attacks of opportunity per round.
Duration: scales with Wisdom modifier.
1 round / Hard WIS Mod + 1 round / 3 Soft WIS Mod.
Eppi's original idea.
Reasoning: Punishes the enemies who try to engage or disengage. Also allows to hit archers & casters every time they make a shot or cast a spell. Arcane archer killer ability.

Spiritual Discipline
Overall, the problem with the spiritual discipline is that it provokes to go for a CHA monk to get benefits from the Paladin/ CoT/ BG which is absurd lore-wise. In the meantime, it is hard to even get the Adept rank as a pure monk. Mainly because you have to favor semi-useless spiritual feats over really useful Body Discipline or Martial discipline feats. So, I assume, spiritual feats need a good boost.

1.Meditation upgrade
Add on top the existing effects:
Practitioner: Can rest during combat;
Adept: Does not clear positive effects;
Master: Refreshes the duration of all positive effects.
Reasoning: No one will take the default feat for the deep monk purposes; casters will take for dip (27.03.24 Update). This version is an insane QoL though.

2. Worship upgrade
Novice: Gains 0.X piety every round (X is Discipline Tier);
Practitioner: Gains X HP every round (X is Discipline Tier);
Adept: Heals allies. Allows to consecrate the altars; (28.03.24 Update)
Master: Overheals up to 30 HP. Allows to conduct ceremonies (via altars only). (28.03.24 Update)
Reasoning: Because altars are everywhere. It is easier to go afk next to the altar than taking a whole feat just for piety re-stocking. People with the Gift of Devotion may be a bit upset. No ceremonies via the Worship as ceremonies put all players around on their knees; imagine being able to do so at any given moment.

3. Move the Empty Body feat to the Spiritual Branch. (25.03.24 Update)
Reasoning: Empty body is not about a physical training, but rather about a spiritual or, at least, a mind one.
Check what Master Shi Heng Yi has to say on the topic https://www.youtube.com/shorts/zhP3ioU4WKg

4. Ethereal Push (28.03.24 Update)
Requires: 17 Monk, 16 Wisdom, Empty Body
Use the ability on an ally to apply a Greater Sanctuary effect to them for 3 rounds.
Use the ability on an enemy to apply a Greater Sanctuary effect to them for 3 rounds. If a hostile target fails a Will save against 10 + 1/2 Monk levels + WIS modifier they are additionally stunned for 3 rounds.
10 minutes cooldown.
Reasoning: The monk clearly sees the line between the material and the ethereal planes, which allows her to temporarily push not just the spirit, but also the person's body itself from one plane to another.
Mechanically it is an instrument against the summoners as a Greater Sanctuary instantly unsummons powerful summons. When used on allies it is an instrument of providing the mean of escape or the temporary protection. Also see the upgraded version at the end of this post.
Also see for the inspiration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxRKCIGa608

Body Discipline
Overall, the discipline feels fine despite the fact that you need to manually take essential feats like evasion or uncanny dodge. Epic dodge now costs 4 feats meaning that if you want that you have to skip LOTS.

0. Give Improved Unarmed Strike, Brawler & Pugilist feats for free (01.04.24 Update)
Reasoning: As it was mentioned many times here monks are known for being a capable unarmed class. Also see "Unarmed + Armed Monk Concept summary" at the end of this post.

1. Make the Ki Strike & the Improved Ki Strike work with monastic weapons at 27+ or 28+ Monk levels or 9/10 levels in the build.
Reasoning: 3/4 BAB Monk class progression & lack of AB/DMG-boosting armed feats force players to multiclass heavily into the full BAB classes/ classes with AB/DMG boosts like a Fighter, a Knight, a WM, etc. As a result, armed monks are naturally limited to dips of 6 (11 tops) Monk levels. Which is basically not a monk, but a fighter with a monk scent.
The mentioned Ki Strike improvement would motivate players to go deep armed monks despite the limit of 3 base APR (still compensated by FoB) while keeping cool shiny eyes & being able to fully use the abilities which would essentially identify them as a monk. Enabling feats to work at 27 lvl of Monk would make the solution even more attractive as it opens a space for multiclassing to add flavor to the concept.
01.04.24 Update: Alternatively, allow AB from the gloves to stack with the melee weapon AB; to use the highest gloves/ melee weapon Sure Striking if a monk has an Improved Ki Strike feat. This will make even armed monks wear their monastic knuckles.
AB: Means +4 knuckles + IKi Strike (+1) = +5 AB to monk weapons.
Sure Striking: +4 knuckles + IKi Strike (+1) +/- Martial Tier 4 bonus (+1) +/- Ascension of the Martial Discipline Tier 4 bonus (+1) = +5-7 Sure Striking with monk weapons.
Also see "Unarmed + Armed Monk Concept summary" at the end of this post.

2. Full Ki Sprint, please
For Gods' sake make it 10% + 10% for every Body Discipline tier up to 150%. Why a half-baked pie again?
Or at least, make the activation giving you a freedom of movement/ allowing you to move during the time stop, - anything worth spending a feat in a world where a monk can use Sprint & Blinding speed.

3. Upgrade the Flesh of Steel
Add on top of the current effect:
Practitioner: If the monk receives the physical or bleeding damage which is less than the monk's discipline (parry) / 5 skill, a monk receives -/X DR against that damage type for 3 rounds. Will only apply a DR for one physical/ bleeding damage type at a time with the lowest damage taken; other damage types & the damage types already covered by this effect are ignored. The check triggers once per round. Does not stack, but can provide DR against up to 3 different damage types. (28.03.24 Update)
Adept: +X fortitude bonus against Disease (28.03.24 Update)
Master: +X fortitude bonus against Poison (28.03.24 Update)
Reasoning: The default feat is semi-useless as you get 10% bludg from the addy helmet anyway. The listed upgrades make the feat iconic for the whole Discipline. "X" is to enable the Ascension to push the bonus up to 8 if the player decides to go for the Master tier in the discipline. (28.03.24 Update)
The DR boost could make the feat more attractive while motivating to invest into SkF's.

4."I am 4 parallel planes ahead of you!" (25.03.24 Update)
Requires: 17 Monk, the Blinding Speed feat, the Flurry of Blows feat
While the Flurry of Blows mode is active a successful hit against a primary target can freeze the target in time for 1 second (Reflex save, DC 10 + 1/2 Monk levels + the highest of CON/ WIS modifier). Triggers once per flurry.
Reasoning: The monk's movements become so rapid that he is able to knock his opponent out of the timeline.

5. Blade Palms (27.03.24 Update)
Requirements: 17 Monk, 16 (hard) CON (or Poison immunity)
Allows to use poisons on the gloves.
A Monk receives +X DC when using Arelith's custom poisons while unarmed (does not stack with other ACP bonuses).
The Unarmed qualifies as an Invisible Blade weapon and a Swashbuckler weapon.
Visuals: palms of the monk become dark grey.
Master tier: Blade Palms feat can cause a random non-magical disease. (29.03.24 Update: moved here from the upgrades)
Reasoning: based on a real-life training called the "Demon Hand": hitting the sand until your hands start to adapt to the increased pressure. As a result both the palms and nails of a monk become rougher and darker in colour. Practitioners of the training also used to cover their palms in poisons so that the slightest scratches could cause the infection on the enemy's side. (see for more detailed explanation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gu7sMmEF210).
Epic feat is to mitigate dip monk builds like 6 Monk/ 24 Swashbuckler builds.
16 CON requirement can be explained by the need to be able to withstand the poisons themselves.
"The Unarmed qualifies as an Invisible Blade weapon" is a nice twist for the monk assassins, ninjas, banite or simply LE monks as the Demon hand training specifies on causing bleeding wounds as well.
"The Unarmed qualifies as a Swashbuckler weapon." - allow monks to get Insightful Strike and cool skills while investing into a full BAB class on preepics.
Imagine, for example, a White Rod unarmed 21 Monk/ 5 IB/ 4 Swash or 17 Monk/ 5 IB/ 8 Swash. Fighter dip suddenly gets a healthy competitor.
"X" is to enable the Ascension to push the bonus up to 8 making the Monk the best class when it comes to handling poisons. (28.03.24 Update)

Mind Discipline
Overall, there is not much to take in the Mind discipline for a Monk who is not into the crafting build. Brilliance was somehow attractive before the 5%ing was alive. Below are some ideas for the new useful feats.
25.03.24 Update: Perhaps, the Mind discipline becomes kind of an "upgrade" discipline? Like it will not have too much of its own abilities, but instead will improve the existing one? Mainly on epics?
In the leu with this idea one could remove the whole Mind discipline branch and re-distribute the feats between the existing 3 other disciplines. A possible explanation: a mindful monk knows how to get the most out of her/his body and spirit.

1. Stance: Jade Eye Knight.
25.03.24 Update: Requires: 17 Monk, 30 hard Parry, 15 Spellcraft(?), the Deflect arrows feat, Mobility(?)
A stance to Parry spells (spellcraft based; spells up to the 6th circle) & ranged attacks (parry based).
Reasoning: Let people feel like a jedi. Make it bound to the actual parry (/concentration/ spellcraft?) skill digits or even to the parry mode itself. Will motivate people to multiclass into a Swashbuckler or a Spellsword. Add the Parry feats to the Mind Branch. Overall, this may make a Parry mode a more interesting alternative to the Expertise mode.

2. Ki Expertise
Your allies in a guard radius get +1/+2 AC while you are in an Expertise/ IE mode.
25.03.24 Update: Probably one could also allow the leadership bonuses to be applied to the monk himself while in an E/ IE mode. This could motivate taking Skilled Rhetorician/ Exemplary Orator feats as well as SkF's.
Reasoning: a PVP feat for team players.

3. Upgrade Mental Fortress
Add on top of the current effect:
Practitioner: +X bonuses to concentration (X = Tier). (29.03.24 Update)
Adept: +X bonuses to spellcraft; (29.03.24 Update)
Master: +X save bonus against all spells. (29.03.24 Update: save against mind-affecting & will save were replaced as they are granted by the default discipline bonuses)
Reasoning: the default feat is next to useless due to the rarity of the Psychic and Sonic damage types. The listed upgrades make the feat iconic for the whole Discipline. "X" is to enable the Ascension to push the bonus up to 8 if the player decides to go for the Master tier in the discipline. (28.03.24 Update)

4. Ki-blocking (24.03.24 Update)
Requires: 16 INT, the Called Shot feat. Applies only when unarmed. (29.03.24 Update)
Upon a successful called shot hit the opponent additionally suffers a 5% Spell Failure chance per 10 Monk levels.
25.03.24 Update: Reasoning: A cool Ty Lee/ equalists reference everyone will appreciate:.
Possible lore explanation: The monk knows how the Ki energy flows in the bodies of living beings and devotes himself to learning how to interrupt the flow.

5. Drunken master style. (25.03.24 Update)
Receive +1 AC while fighting indoors. Receive +2 damage bonus if there is any furniture in the colossal radius (or just if indoors).
Reasoning: The monk is trained to fight in tight spaces and use furniture and even decorative elements to his advantage. Tables become tower shields, chairs and empty bottles become weapons, etc.
After some time DMs will be surprised to see how carefully all the boss rooms are decorated. The Drunken master we deserved.

General ideas:

1. Give some QOL feats for free
Reasoning: some QoL feats are very neat, but you skip them due to the dire feat starve.
Possible solution: Give some of the QoL feats for free at certain levels of the monk with a limited choice. For example, at level 9 give a choice: Skilled Rhetorician OR Exemplary Orator. Player chooses 1 option, the 2nd option is unaccessible.

2. Consider giving some combat feats for free on epics
Some of the combat feats could be given for free to choose from the 2-4 option list on the epic levels of the monk. For example:

• Mental Fortress OR Flesh of Steel OR Spirit Shield;
• Circle kick (reworked) OR Ki Sprint (Upgraded to mitigate the Time stop) OR Reincarnation.
  These choices should look OP & feel really important like if you would choose epic spells.
  Such "choose 1 of N" tactic can be also used to limit undesirable combinations 42 SR + Pray feats + Reincarnation, for example.

Alternatively, you could give special OP effects to the existing feats as a reward for the certain tiers of the Ascension (or Balance) or even just upon reaching certain tiers in Disciplines:

Martial Discipline:
Practitioner+: (Epic) Weapon Focus: Unarmed, Improved Critical: Unarmed, (Epic) Weapon Specialization: Unarmed feats apply their bonuses to all monk weapons. (29.03.24 Update) Also see "Unarmed + Armed Monk Concept summary" at the end of this post.
Adept+: During the Stance: Iron Grip of the Eagle's Talon ignore 1/2 of the enemies' (hard) Tumble skill when making an attack of opportunity. (29.03.24 Update: moved here from the default description)
Master: The Circle kick's and the Quivering Palm's cooldowns are reduced to 6 seconds. (29.03.24 Update)

Spiritual Discipline:
Practitioner+: Serendipity also clears cooldowns on all spiritual abilities (except for Pray & Reincarnation). (29.03.24 Update)
Adept+: Empty body grants the Wraith Stride effects for 1 round upon activation. (29.03.24 Update)
Master: Ethereal Push feat can be used on self. If used on a target the monk applies the Greater Sanctuary for 3 rounds to themselves as well as the True Seeing effect for 3 rounds allowing them to see the target while they are in the ethereal state; prevents the enemy from getting an advantage if they avoid the stun. (28.03.24 Update)

Body Discipline:
Practitioner+: Ki Sprint grants the freedom of movement effect for 1 round upon activation (29.03.24 Update)
Adept+: During the Stance: Equipoise the monk copies an instant attack directed against him and performs it towards the attacker. Triggers once per flurry. The copied instant attack does not interfere with the monk's own instant attacks' CD. Koros' original idea (Ki Reflect). (25.03.24 Update)
Master: Flesh of Steel grants poison and disease immunity.

Mind Discipline:
Practitioner+: Ki-Blocking can be used with weapons & applies a -5 concentration malus to the target (stacks). (29.03.24 Update)
Adept+: During the Stance: Jade Eye Knight upon a successful spell parry deflect the spell back at the caster. 1/3 of the Parry bonus (Hard + Soft) benefits the Spellcraft skill for the purposes of the stance's spell parry. (29.03.24 Update)
Master: Mental fortress grants the mind spell immunity.

3. Make a tea ceremonies as a ritual for the monks. (29.03.24 Update)
Possible implementation: allows monks to get bonuses from the Ascension of Discipline & the Balance of Discipline perks.
In the end of the ceremony monks have to fight copies of themselves representing their sins and material urges.
Here are some references for the inspiration:
Samurai Jack: Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFDkcvrSaYU Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU24VItAmWk
Uncle Iroh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghByA8XpmSo

4. Unarmed + Armed Monk Concept summary (01.04.24 Update)
The concept describes a monk who fights with both melee weapons and via unarmed switching mid-combat between the regimes. Such a monk can take both armed & unarmed stances & techniques into the build with an intent of using them tactically depending on the situation on the ground. Requires the following key points:
1) Monks get free Improved Unarmed Strike, Brawler & Pugilist feats;
2) AB from the gloves stacks with the melee weapon AB; the highest gloves/ melee weapon Sure Striking is used if a monk has an Improved Ki Strike feat.
3) (E)FW, (E)WS, IC Unarmed feats apply their bonuses to all monk weapons;
4) Some abilities are still only usable while unarmed, some - while armed.
How is it going to benefit Unarmed + Armed Monk (UAMTM) Concept:
1) The UAMs will not have to invest into 3 unarmed-only feats they will have no use in an armed regime;
2) The UAMs will not have to waste 2 unarmed-only Ki-strike feats they will have no use in an armed regime; instead they will be re-used for the armed regime. Due to the fact that gloves' AB now benefit the weapon UAMs will not switch gloves (or any other additional equipment) mid combat while changing regimes. So the UAM will have 1 universal set of gear for both armed & unarmed regimes.
Possibly the Ki Strikes bonuses may be applied to weapons for the limited time (2-3 minutes) after equipping a weapon so that UAMs are motivated to switch back to the unarmed. A cooldown for the bonus to be applied again may be set as well.
3) The UAM will take 1 set of general combat feats which will work for both regimes;
4) The fact that some abilities (stances, instant attacks, techniques) are usable only in a particular regime will motive UAMs to switch between regimes more often. Switching between regimes should make the gameplay more dynamic rewarding the player with higher performance;
Extra: The UAM concept opens an option where a monk generally fights with fists and sometimes uses special activation-based abilities attached to the weapon techniques to make cool finishing moves, for example.
For the inspiration:
Red Avenger description: https://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/c ... nger.shtml
"I am the storm" finishing combo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOZONW-UK0w

5. Discipline progression re-visiting (05.04.24 Update)
Problem: the mechanical necessity for the monk to multiclass deeply into other classes is (additionally) stimulated by the fact that NON-MONK classes provide way more (free/ bonus) feats to progress in the MONASTIC disciplines than the actual MONK class. It feels like a crutch solution to me. Examples:
3 levels of the Archer-Ranger provide: Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot, Point Blank Shot +1 bonus feat for a total of 3 Martial feats + 1 any Discipline feat (if taken on the epics).
3 levels of the Paladin provide: turn undead, Divine Grace, Divine Smite for a total of 3 Spiritual feats.
Each level of the Loremaster provides 1 Monastic feat for the purposes of the Discipline progression up to 5 feats at the 5th of LM.

Possible measures to mitigate the problem:

1. Only monastic feats benefit the monastic disciplines progression;
2. The Discipline progression is replaced by points. Each monastic feat grants a certain amount of points. Some feats may grant point in different disciplines. Some feats may reduce points in other disciplines. Examples:
   Empty Body: +1 Spiritual, +1 Body.
   Mental Fortress: +2 Mind.
   Spirit Shield: +1 Spiritual, +1 Body.
   Worship: +3 Spiritual (to motivate people to take a semi-useless QoL feat (if you do not want to upgrade it as was described above)).
   Blade Palms: +1 Martial, +1 Body, -2 Spiritual (to represent that poisoning people & spreading diseases is not a healthy spiritual practice, for example).
   Circle kick (upgraded): +1 Martial, +1 Body.
   Quivering Palm: +1 Martial, +1 Spiritual.
   Ki barrier: +2 Body
3. The Discipline progression checkpoints may be reduced to 2/4/6/8 if needed.
   #Monk_Disciplines_for_Monks

[jomonog]

So much of it just isnt working at all on the PGCC at the moment i really think the whole thing needs to be pulled and worked on a bit more until some of the basic stuff is implemented properly. Its really not worth the time to test or provide feedback on atm imo

edit - apologies it seems it has been pulled out of pgcc in the background and i was on just on at an unfortunate time trying to test some of the stuff. the version of monk left on pgcc however might need some looking at as its not working like old monk either as it doesnt have unarmed feats and lots of those feats arent selectable

[Lewtzy]

It's been mentioned before but the fact that the feats needed for a "punch Monk" are locked in the Monks bonus feats limits the actual buildability of the monk to go unarmed at all due to a sheer lack of monk feats available to do anything next to Martial Mastery.

Feats I mean:

• Improved Unarmed Strike
• Brawler
• Pugilist

Other classes can take these as general feats.
This is not the case for monk (currently on PGCC).

I doubt this is intended, as in my eyes, a monk should be viable as unarmed. It's something the class is known for.

[nosta]

IMO, the main reason why it's so difficult for a pure monk to have a high tier in spiritual discipline is because the monk feats can only be taken with monk bonus feats. Remove this restriction, and it becomes more viable to take a large amount of spiritual discipline monk feats, instead of weak feats like iron will.

The new monk feels feat starved. I suggest giving them fighter feat progression and/or giving them some feats for free as others have mentioned to alleviate this.

[Waldo52]

It's been mentioned before but the fact that the feats needed for a "punch Monk" are locked in the Monks bonus feats limits the actual buildability of the monk to go unarmed at all due to a sheer lack of monk feats available to do anything next to Martial Mastery.

Feats I mean:

• Improved Unarmed Strike
• Brawler
• Pugilist

Other classes can take these as general feats.
This is not the case for monk (currently on PGCC).

I doubt this is intended, as in my eyes, a monk should be viable as unarmed. It's something the class is known for.

I apologize in advance for derailing a thread involving a class I don't play. I have not touched monk, even on on the PGCC, ever.

But for takers of the unarmed feats and gauntlet users in general...

Glowy fists please? lol

[Opustus]

You could give -pray the Sprint treatment. Make -pray into its own actual feat in the radial menu and the monk feats affecting -pray would upgrade it similarly to Sprint upgrading into Ki Sprint.

[Wizard Khalifa]

Hectic weeks so I finally got to check here. Glad to see others giving more feedback on how to improve monks.

I actually wrote for six hours and the forum log me out after writing it so I lost all that I wrote. If I knew this would happen, I should have wrote at Google docs. I guess simplify and summarised my ideas-

• Monk Paths: Unarmed and Armed( I wrote the difference between the two, Maybe another post when I'm not tired of writing for six hours)
• Customisable Style for monks(at level 3,11,16,21,26. Add AB+, Add Damage, etc there is more to these but god I'm tired.)
• Ki Pool and Ki Powers.
• Monk Cultivations( Monks keeps purity of body, wholeness of body, Diamond body, Diamond Soul, Empty Body and Perfect Body but cultivation makes all six do extra stuff at level 5,10,15,20,25,30 respectively. Purity of body and Diamond Body are nerfed of not being immune but provide 2+ saving throws against disease and poison respectively which increases for 2 at every 5 monks level. Perfect body have a charge that dispel mind affecting effect that monk failed to resist, at level 25 a monk gets 2 and at level 30 a monk gets 3.)

I'll get to post one idea at a time because I'm still tired and mad that I wasted six hours of writing and it's all gone.

Idea 1# Monk Paths
As we already implemented paths on classes, the rework should also put two paths for monks.
One is the Unarmed path or maybe call them the open hand and the other one is the Armed path or Kensai.

Unarmed path just follows the current monk's progression and maintains their ¾ BAB(with -3). They get quivering palm as a path feature for free but the current rework of quivering palm seems to be underwhelming. I think the rework should make it an instant ability with no DC that imbues one attack and inflict only the current target a weakness to 10% from bludgeoning damage for a single round. 30 seconds CD or more. Maybe can also make it 5% at level 7, then 10% at level 15. Instead of whirlwind attack maybe they can rework the circle kick problem of switching targets so it becomes a viable feat.

Armed path has all the benefits of current monk’s progression except that they have Full BAB like fighters but they have monk proficiencies only. they don’t get UBAB so even with 20 BAB, they don’t get five APR unarmed if for some reason they go unarmed.

Give them an armed flurry of blows that only works with monks weapons in which it is an instant attack or an additional APR at -5ab in a round but it has a CD of 10 seconds or more.

They get the whirlwind attack for free as a feat at level 13.

That’s my idea for Monk paths. It has tweaking and balance issues and I don’t know how they're gonna implement the current rework to this but I like to put the general outline of making paths if one wants to be unarmed and the other wants to be armed.

This is the 1# idea, next would be the monk style.

Idea 2# Monk style
Style is a customized feature that replaces the current Ki Strikes/Combat Mastery of monk.

At level 3,7,10,13,16,19 they can choose to add techniques to their style. On 23, 26 and 29, they get epic techniques to add to their style.

For example,

At level 3, they get to choose one technique from the following techniques:
Fast Strike- gives 1 soft ab
Strong Strike- gives 1dmg
Crane Stance- gives 1 dodge ac to current and last attacker
Blocking Palm- 5DR on the first attack that hits.

At level 7, they get another technique but not the technique they already chose:

At level 10 it is the same.

But at level 13, they can choose all the techniques again like if they had chosen Fast strike, they can take it again, increasing another AB.

At level 16 and 19 like at level 3-10, they can’t choose a technique they already chose at level 13.

So after choosing six techniques, they can get something like 2ab from two fast strikes, and 2 dmg from two Strong Strike and 2 dodge ac from two crane stance.( Techniques should be around 10 or so just for diverse options.)

Now at level 23, 26 and 29 they get Epic Techniques. For example, if you have Fast Strike, you can get Epic Fast Strike.

Epic Fast Strike gives you 1ab and the first attack that misses will always hit. Only occur once in a round. Against Epic Dodge, the attack rerolls and will hit if overcome AC.

At 26 and 29 you can pick another technique but not the epic technique you already chose.

In this way, This customisable feature allowed players a freedom of choices on how to build their character's combat style.

Next is Ki Pool and Ki Powers.

Idea 3# Ki Pool and Ki Powers

On level 6, Monks gain Ki Pool and Ki Powers. They get Ki Powers at every 3 levels onward until level 24 or maybe lower. The number of points for Ki Pool are equal to 2/monk level + Hard Wisdom Mod or maybe lower.

Ki Powers are like spells but focus more on enhancing Monks in battle just like Ranger and Paladins spells. Just like the two classes mentioned, Monks have several unique Ki powers like for examples-

• Imbue Ki which gives 1d4 magic damage for unarmed and 1 magic damage for armed for 1 turn per monk level and at level 12 1d6 and 2magic dmg but at the cost of 2 Ki and at level 18 1d8 for unarmed and 1d4 for armed at the cost of 3 Ki and at level 24 1d10 for unarmed and 1d6 for armed at the cost of 4 Ki
• Ki Barrier(It’s a feat but for this purpose, it should suffice) gives like how it descript in the rework.
• Stunning Fist(I know this is a feat as well but just like above.If it misses, doesn’t spend the Ki or if it resisted, have 50% refund?)

Next is Monks Cultivation.

Idea 4# Monk Cultivation

Monk Cultivation is like Warlock Pact or Paladin Oath that a player can choose at level 1 or maybe 3 like a secondary path that has a fixed progression. As mentioned before, the Monk keeps the Purity of Body, Wholeness of Body, Diamond Body, Diamond Soul, Empty Body and Perfect Body.

Cultivation adds new features or changes name on these six depending on which Cultivation you choose.

Just to name a few suggestions,
Pure Body Cultivation
Ki Master Cultivation
Battleseeker Cultivation
God’s Avatar Cultivation
Drunken Master Cultivation
Magic Breaker Cultivation
Psionic Fist Cultivation
Draconic Manifestation Cultivation

Let’s take Pure Body Cultivation for example-

• Purity of Body
  Purity of Body gives 2+ saving throws against diseases and every five levels of monk increase it by 1. Pure Body Cultivation gives toughness as bonus feat, gets 1 fortitude check and 2 discipline skill which increase at level 14 of monks and everytime Pure Body monk makes a fortitude save, or against disease check or any discipline check and succeed, he heals for 3d6+2(20 seconds CD) which increases by 1d6 every five level in monks and at level 10, even if he fails, he can still heal the minimum amount which is if at 3d6, they heal at least minimum heal of 3 without the two plus. A level 30 Pure body monk would have 8 saving throws against diseases, 3 fortitude save and 6 discipline skills and heals for 8d6+2.

• Wholeness of Body
  Pure body monk wholeness body heals twice per monk level x wis mod, has decrease CD of 1 minutes and another 1 minutes at level 21 and provides regen of 1+ Wisdom hard mod(level 12 minimum 12 1+, level 16 minimum 14 2+, level 22 minimum 16 3+, level 28 minimum 18 4+) + Con hard mod(level 12 minimum 12 1+, level 16 minimum 14 2+, level 22 minimum 16 3+, level 28 minimum 18 4+) for 1 round per monk level. So a level 28 monk with 18 wis and 18 con can have up to 9hp regen.

• Diamond Body
  Diamond Body gives 2+ saving throws against poison and every five levels of monk increase it by 1. Pure Body cultivation increases the HP of monks by 1 which makes it D9. They also get a passive of 5% physical immunity and 1 DR and another 5% and 1 DR at level 24 or so. Diamond Body of Pure Body also has a damage threshold that if the pure monk had taken 50 damage, it activates and gives a monk 5% phy immunity and 5 DR and gives an effect similar to stoneskin with a cap of 75 damage and at level 24, it’s threshold is increase to 75 damage and it gives 10% phy immunity and 10DR effect like of a stoneskin of 125 damage for 1 round per five monks level. This occurs every 1 turn and doesn’t stack with stoneskin, greater stoneskin and premonition.

• Diamond Soul
  Diamond Soul gives 10+ per monk level of Innate SR like usual capped at 32. For Pure Body, they get a passive of 5% elemental immunity and 2 DR for elements dmg and at level 25, it increases for another 5% elemental immunity and 2 DR for elements dmg. They get extra DR against knockback elemental damage by 6 more and DR against force,positive, negative, divine, poison, entropy, physic and magic by 1 which by level 25, increase to 12 and 2 respectively.

• Empty Body
  Empty Body becomes an Absolute Body. Any melee attack that hits is dealt with a knockback by a bludgeoning damage[1/4 Monk level+ Con Mod+ Wisdom Mod], gives 6 piercing DR while slash and bludgeoning are around 3 DR and the target has to make a fortitude check against a DC[10+ 2/Monk level+Wisdom Mod]. If they fail, they will get slowed for 1 round and even if they succeed, they will get a debuff of losing 2 dmg and 1ac for 1 round. Doesn’t stack. Last 1 round per monk level. 5 min CD.

• Perfect Body
  Perfect Body gives 1 universal save and a charge that dispel any mind-affecting spells and effects that the monk failed to resist. Gets 1 charge at level 25 and another charge at level 30. Charge CD is 10 minutes. Pure Body monks get 3 DR, 2 passive regen and increase another HP for monks by 1 making them D10. At level 28, they get another 2DR and 1 passive regen and every 1 per round, if they get hit, they reduce the CD of wholeness of Body by 5 seconds or maybe more.

[Pure Body get’s only half healing from magic(including potions) and any magic regen only get 1/4.]

From this example, you’ll get the gist of how cultivation works.

ADDITIONAL IDEAS OF AS FEATURES

FOCUS OF BLOW

At level 10, a monk can maintain their Flurry of Blow or they can switch to Focus of Blow.

Focus of blow for unarmed don’t give an additional APR but they get an additional dmg of according to their current monk unarmed dmg( If they have 1d10, they get 4 dmg, if they have 1d12 they get 5dmg, if they have 1d20 they get 6 dmg) and they get 1ab at level 18.

Focus of blows for armed don’t give an instant attack but they gain additional dmg according to max of 1 at 10 level, 2 at 14, 3 at 17, and 4 at 20 and they get 1 ab at level 18.

UNIFIED BODY

This has two features: Unified Body I and Unified Body II.

Unified Body I
At level 23 or somewhere along here, if you have higher wisdom(hard) than your con(hard), you’ll get 1 soft con and vice versa.( If you have higher Con than Wisdom, then you get 1 soft wisdom.)

Unified Body II
At level 28 or somewhere along here, if you have higher str(hard) than your dex(hard), you’ll get 1 soft dex and vice versa.

[Llopast]

At level 3,7,10,13,16,19 they can choose to add techniques to their style. On 23, 26 and 29, they get epic techniques to add to their style.

Actually, it sounds like an interesting idea to limit bonus monk feats on certain levels to techniques/stances/QoL feats only. That is if the monk becomes less feat-starved, of course.

Next is Ki Pool and Ki Powers.

There is an interesting idea I saw on another NWN server where instead of introducing a separate Ki pool monk abilities used the Stunning fist charges. As the Stunning fist charges scale 1:1 with monk levels it made total sense why a higher level monk had more "Ki points" to use. Extra stunning attacks feat was also quite important there for the mentioned reasons.
Arelith could use a similar concept:
Bind some monk abilities to the stunning fist charges (call them Ki points). Put higher costs on the more powerful abilities to limit their usage.
Make Ki points to recover over time.
Re-make the Extra stunning attacks feat into +3 Ki points & faster Ki recovery rate.
Re-make the Improved stunning fist feat into improving the DC of all Ki-based abilities.
Optionally re-bind extra pray and reincarnation charges to Ki points. Make meditation restore Ki points as well.

[Wizard Khalifa]

Actually, it sounds like an interesting idea to limit bonus monk feats on certain levels to techniques/stances/QoL feats only. That is if the monk becomes less feat-starved, of course.

That's why I figure Monk Style can be a solution to this. The rework seems to have a general goal of making it very customisable and gives you a freedom of choice but it weirdly restricting and less rewarding so quite a contradictory and just as you said, there isn't enough bonus feat to go around.

There is an interesting idea I saw on another NWN server where instead of introducing a separate Ki pool monk abilities used the Stunning fist charges. As the Stunning fist charges scale 1:1 with monk levels it made total sense why a higher level monk had more "Ki points" to use. Extra stunning attacks feat was also quite important there for the mentioned reasons.
Arelith could use a similar concept:
Bind some monk abilities to the stunning fist charges (call them Ki points). Put higher costs on the more powerful abilities to limit their usage.
Make Ki points to recover over time.
Re-make the Extra stunning attacks feat into +3 Ki points & faster Ki recovery rate.
Re-make the Improved stunning fist feat into improving the DC of all Ki-based abilities.
Optionally re-bind extra pray and reincarnation charges to Ki points. Make meditation restore Ki points as well.

Yeah, we have the same idea. I actually derived this from Pathfinder Monk system. https://pathfinderkingmaker.fandom.com/ ... k#Ki_Power

I completed my previous post regarding ideas, would be glad to hear your opinion and everyone else.

[Llopast]

That's why I figure Monk Style can be a solution to this. The rework seems to have a general goal of making it very customisable and gives you a freedom of choice but it weirdly restricting and less rewarding so quite a contradictory and just as you said, there isn't enough bonus feat to go around.

I believe the current 4 Discipline + bonus feats system will remain unaffected due to the efforts already invested by the Team as well as the base "customisable" idea behind it. So I would not expect implementation of the paths or a drastic change in the foundation.

What I think can be more or less realistically changed:

• Amount of bonus (free) feats and the feat-selection limitations;
• Discipline progression mechanics & bonuses;
• Range of monastic abilities and their effects +/- implementation of the Ki point cost to the abilities.

I can only suggest we try thinking along the Kenji lines, otherwise we will end up pulling completely different directions resulting in another year of the monk re-work delay. Lets help finilizing the job instead.

Yeah, we have the same idea. I actually derived this from Pathfinder Monk system. https://pathfinderkingmaker.fandom.com/ ... k#Ki_Power

I think, this link and the abilities concepts you described will be a good food for the minds of the developers. Good job, fellow monk enjoyer!

[Whosdis]

The mental discipline which coincides with a wizard dip is kind of hot garbage aside from skilled rhetoritician.

Question: Are all the monk feats being turned into selectable feats? No more evasion etc?

[Whosdis]

On reappraisal, I guess the free feats means all the built-in ones.

The PGCC still gives you the free feats in spite of the rework being implemented?

I could see that if someone taking say 4 monk still gets deflect arrow, baseline evasion, etc. and got the two bonus feats for say, ki barrier or something else, even if ki barrier is stupid and loathesome.

But three measly bonus feats for an empty class is a bit asinine. Perhaps the rework should be scrapped and monk be left alone; don't fix what isn't broken.

[Llopast]

On reappraisal, I guess the free feats means all the built-in ones.

The PGCC still gives you the free feats in spite of the rework being implemented?

I could see that if someone taking say 4 monk still gets deflect arrow, baseline evasion, etc. and got the two bonus feats for say, ki barrier or something else, even if ki barrier is stupid and loathesome.

But three measly bonus feats for an empty class is a bit asinine. Perhaps the rework should be scrapped and monk be left alone; don't fix what isn't broken.

Currently the PGCC is broken monk-wise (BA-DUM-TSS).

There are several armed monk bugs still even though the most crucial one was fixed (fixed so much most of the monk features do not work while a candle/ torch/ lantern is equipped). So the fix is needed one way or another.

[EnigmaticSpirit]

I'm not good at mechanics or building. I am no expert. But I feel the spiritual path as it is, is broken with a potential to significantly affect game balance.

You're looking at SR36, which will force mages to invest heavily into spell penetration to even stand a chance.
And as others have dubbed them, an "unkillable pray machine".

There's a way to make spiritual monks stand out, but I don't feel this is it.

Also I personally feel there's a distinct lack of hadouken. (This is semi serious, but really, monks being able to actually deal some damage rather than stand there and tickle their opponents would be very nice.)

[Security_Blanket]

I don't see the changes, what changed? I have a level 17 monk who got forced to relevel but I don't even know what changed, is this posted somewhere?